cladking
Well-Known Member
Observation and evidence are irrelevant. Science is based on experiment. "Evidence" is interpretation derived from beliefs.
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Darwin's Illusion
- Thread starter Neuropteron
- Start date
Observation and evidence are irrelevant. Science is based on experiment. "Evidence" is interpretation derived from beliefs.
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Just google 4 Fs biology.
cladking
Well-Known Member
Yes! Darwin assumed the exact same thing.
If consciousness underlies change in species as I believe then it would be impossible for Darwin to get it right.
You do all the time by asserting your speculation is fact without support and rejection of knowledge without reason offered as if you have some greater knowledge than all others.
I'm a poet. I've never been published, but I do write it. So what. You claim to be a scientist, but you don't use the scientific method. It is a dubious claim and likely not a formal position.
A meaningless statement since you make no real arguments for the philosophy and only claims about it. You do realize that metaphysics and science parted ways a long time ago.
You have no arguments. Just empty claims.
You can call what you do by any name, it isn't science, it isn't the amalgamation of scattered knowledge into some greater understanding. What I see is someone that pontificates on their own unverified and untested speculation that they believe is factual.
Why would anyone take your word when your word is so often found to be wrong.
Darwin did not consider that populations were stable or that members of the population were uniform. How would anyone conclude selection acting on variation with that erroneous basis. Yet, you will be preaching those same mistakes next year and further.
I would suggest that you do more than just think about these things. Learn about these things. I would suggest that you have long ago stopped learning when you started seeing yourself as an expert on what you believed were facts.
I couldn't say. I can only speak to what you claim. You haven't presented any theories.
There you go. Alluding that you are the lone rebel intellect who has discovered it all and no one will listen to your mighty wisdom and knowledge. The problem for you is that everyone has listened.
It matters if they are correct. Dismissing them because of what you believe but have not established in a discussion of hasn't been forgotten.
No. Science is based on evidence whether it comes from experiments or observation. Clinging to experiments seems like an obsession by someone I think has done little if any real experimentation. Killing a few flies over lunch isn't much of experiment considering you didn't learn all you could about flies, come up with an hypothesis, observe the local population to determine the species make up, phenology, behavior, estimates of numbers, verification of species present and so on. You just noticed that some landed upside down, but don't know if that was existing trait. You just assume it was new and that by killing a small handful your conclusion is you created new species. If you seriously consider that science and that conclusion valid, you are more lost than understand.
Darwin does have experimental support. Lots of it. You even posted a link to an article supporting Darwin. Irony! There are still threads like this populated with those like you that have unverified beliefs they consider absolute and universal truth.
If there is no evidence, it isn't an assumption. If there is no evidence, that is all you can say about it.
What you believe has not stopped science from advancing or evolution to continue.
There is no evidence that consciousness underlies evolution.
See. We still have these threads and with no evidence from the deniers.
I did.
I see, I just didn't recognize what must be a widely recognized abbreviation for those four motivations.
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
In a sense, we are doing world view selection for different ways of being humans. And I get how you defend science. I do it too. I am just of a different culture of what science is. But that is also a selection.
Let us suppose for a minute that consciousness does underlie speciation. What Darwin concluded using evidence is still correct.
There is no evidence or experiment that demonstrates the actions or the presence of consciousness during change in living things.
Per your usual you made an empty claim without details and explanation of why you make the claim.
How do you do that constantly and consider yourself a scientist? Effective communication is part of science. It is why we have meetings, classes, publications, lectures, debates and so forth.
You seem to be suggesting that Darwin should have included false information in formulating his theory to satisfy your bias. How do you see that as someone acting as a scientist?
From experience, I conclude that you will not answer questions or back claims with details, evidence and experiment, but I still think those questions to you should be out there for others to see how you deal with them.
I see that. It is a value of these threads to learn such things.In a sense, we are doing world view selection for different ways of being humans. And I get how you defend science. I do it too. I am just of a different culture of what science is. But that is also a selection.
The downside is that you have to wade through a lot of nonsense disguising itself as knowledge and fact when it is just some poor blokes half-baked speculation.
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Well, I see the same for morality and rationality, but there it is more evenly split between religious believers and non-believers. Though there are still more believers.
cladking
Well-Known Member
I have numerous objections to the e coli "experiment" ranging from its relevance, parameters, and execution. Perhaps this highlights my greatest objection;
You can buy Chinese agar in 55 lb bags! Obviously this product wasn't available when the experiment started.
Of course over long periods of times products change faster than Planters makes ever smaller bottles of peanuts and every mousetrap is made more cheaply until it doesn't work at all.
Species quickly adapt to even the tiniest changes like new thermostats that keep temperatures in a new range. It is impossible to control an experiment over so long a time without extraordinary measures.
It doesn't matter how many times I list the many objections to this experiment I have or how comprehensively I compose this list because it is entirely forgotten immediately by those who want to believe in Darwin and Evolution.
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You can buy Chinese agar in 55 lb bags! Obviously this product wasn't available when the experiment started.
Of course over long periods of times products change faster than Planters makes ever smaller bottles of peanuts and every mousetrap is made more cheaply until it doesn't work at all.
Species quickly adapt to even the tiniest changes like new thermostats that keep temperatures in a new range. It is impossible to control an experiment over so long a time without extraordinary measures.
It doesn't matter how many times I list the many objections to this experiment I have or how comprehensively I compose this list because it is entirely forgotten immediately by those who want to believe in Darwin and Evolution.
No he didn't. Your claiming this incorrect view does not establish it as fact. It doesn't even make sense.
This is the weirdest answer ever. Experiments are not magic. Having one doesn't make something correct. What do you get from experiments?
Evidence is not interpretation. Evidence can be interpreted. An interpretation is an argument with evidence. Your interpretations are from belief, but that doesn't mean everyone's interpretation is.
Some people believe that left handed people are evil. But that belief isn't part of studies involving left-handed people.
You're just flopping everywhere hoping for water.
gnostic
The Lost One
No, cladking.
Experiments are observations, and experiments are evidence.
The differences are some experiments are carried out in the labs. But not all evidence are lab experiments.
For instance, when you study distant stars or distant galaxies, it is not possible to confine evidence to the lab. Every observations, every measurements, every tests & comparisons, and every data must be gathered from the stars and galaxies themselves.
You keep talking of experiments as being precedence over all others. They (experiments) are indeed important to science, but if you are going to study nature, you cannot confine science to lab experiments. The evidence have to be observed, collected and tested from nature itself.
Plus, you have never presented any experiments from 40,000 years old science.
You do not even comprehend what science is...certainly not natural sciences.
Science is knowledge, and it is knowledge that explain what nature do and explain how nature work.
There exist no science 40,000 years ago as there are no 40,000-year-old written language that explain anything.
All you have imaginary science and imaginary language, with no experiments to support your person belief. All you do is make outrageous claims, one after the other, with no evidence and no experiments.
You are not even scientist, you are no historian or archaeology, and you cannot translate these nonexistent 40,000-year-old language, so are not philologist, nor a translator.
Do you even have experience reading a single ancient language?
You can’t, can you? The only language you know is English, isn’t that right?
If you cannot read this so-called language, by prehistoric people some 40,000 years ago, how do expect to know what they think, to know what they did?
You are just making absurd fantasy about people you don’t know anything about.
This is why I don’t find take any self-proclaimed metaphysician. They need to create fiction, and expect people to believe in their say-so, without evidence to support their say-so. All you have to back up your belief is circular reasoning and confirmation biases.
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But you don't mention any of those and go straight to this unfounded objection.
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You can buy Chinese agar in 55 lb bags!
Why is that obvious? Where is the evidence you use to conclude that? What agar did Lenski use? You should be able to answer that and show that it holds relevance. Since you don't provide that information, you probably don't know and this is just a desperate attempt to throw anything at the wall.
Meaningless drivel that tells us nothing and doesn't support your contention that something was wrong with the agar.
Species do adapt both physiologically, developmental and genetically. Not an area of contention and not support for what you allude actually occurred.
The details of the experiment were published. Everything was detailed. Yet you cannot manifest facts regarding your accusations. It just seems desperate to post anything.
There are no posts where you have done this. Just posts where you say you have done this and been ignored. You do know the search function works here now right?
You could list them now. You've been on for enough time to do just that. And still nothing.
So where is your evidence that this trivial detail has any meaning on the results.
In your perfect review of all the publications by Lenski, how did you conclude that it was the Agar with the Lead pipe in the Conservatory?
All I see is that you are aware of the length of the Lenski experiment in time and that agar is used in microbiology research. You don't present what agar was used by Lenski. You don't present evidence that the agar was changed during the course of the experiment. You don't present evidence that changes in agar could lead to results that confound the conclusions.
You've literally done nothing but show us you can find agar for sale on the internet.
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cladking
Well-Known Member
This is a metaphysical question that I can't answer. Certainly these things have to be taken on a case by case basis with total knowledge in order to have a "proper" answer so all we can do is approximate an answer. I normally use a shorthand to express this and say that any argument based on logic, reason, and evidence is necessarily correct in at least a left handed sort of way from at least one perspective.
In this specific case I would say that every cause of speciation I've listed does in a sense favor the "fittest" individuals who are most likely to survive and procreate. However this perspective misses every cause of speciation. All of Darwin's thinking was correct in a left handed sort of way and he was the first to have anything wrong like this. He is still a giant upon whose shoulders we can climb despite being wrong about everything. We probably couldn't have gotten to where we are without Darwin or someone else who was wrong in very similar ways.
I am not a "philosopher". "Metaphysics" as I am using it means "basis of science". Rather than thinking in terms of theory I think in terms of models composed of processes and experiment. Experiment is the basis of science.
OK, you're right. I never been wrong even once except for the time I thought I was wrong but it turned out I was right. Apparently your track record must be even better.
On this note I'll just leave it here for now.
You are still logged in and no detailed list of objections.I have numerous objections to the e coli "experiment" ranging from its relevance, parameters, and execution. Perhaps this highlights my greatest objection;
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You can buy Chinese agar in 55 lb bags! Obviously this product wasn't available when the experiment started.
Of course over long periods of times products change faster than Planters makes ever smaller bottles of peanuts and every mousetrap is made more cheaply until it doesn't work at all.
Species quickly adapt to even the tiniest changes like new thermostats that keep temperatures in a new range. It is impossible to control an experiment over so long a time without extraordinary measures.
It doesn't matter how many times I list the many objections to this experiment I have or how comprehensively I compose this list because it is entirely forgotten immediately by those who want to believe in Darwin and Evolution.
You had the time to search for agar.
If you had a detailed list of valid objections that you considered important, I see no reason you couldn't publish them here. Right now, in the moment.
The only conclusion I can reasonably come to is that you have no valid objections. You just don't like an experiment that produces evidence that means your speculation can be rejected on a sound basis.
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Wow! You're sweating. Profusely.
If you can express it in shorthand, then your opening statement is false.
So all you have is nothing but word games and platitudes.
Yes, the evidence supports natural selection acting most favorably on those most fit. What causes have you listed and where have you listed them? Was it 30 or 40 times that you did it?
What do you think are causes of speciation? Remember that you asserted this positively as if you have some evidence.
Meaningless. I say his thinking was correct in an ambidextrous sort of way then.
Anything wrong like what? Darwin didn't invent ideas and theories of evolution. He was the first to present it with detailed observations, evidence and a mechanism to drive change.
Yes, I know you love repeating mantras. Tell us something useful. What was he wrong about and why? Since he wasn't wrong about everything, we can just dismiss your nebulous statement unless you choose to provide details and reasoning.
You have yet to establish Darwin was wrong and can't explain why his theory forms the continued basis of the modern theory. You just keep repeating it as if suddenly you will be right for no reason at all.
Nebulous claims without details can be dismissed without further review. It is assumed that your lack of detail, explanation and support indicate that you have nothing. After all, if you had the details, explanations and evidence, there is no rational basis for withholding it.
Then once would have been enough. You repeat it always and for a reason. I suspect it is like bug repellent for you. It is designed to repel those that clearly understand your denial and the basis for it with a go to, nebulous claim of metaphysics to shake off your challengers whose challenges you cannot meet.
Theories are models that lead to the development of experiments that produce evidence to use in testing the models.
Science is based on evidence. You can get the evidence without experiments.
This is the last refuge of the wrong in my experience. Sarcasm isn't going to help you. All it does is give more strength to my conclusion that you consider yourself correct and expert in all you claim. Instead of admitting that you are wrong, you choose sarcasm.
You haven't taken it anywhere. It is right at the point of origin with no evidence it will ever go anywhere.
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Just for fun, here are some of the assumptions of Darwin's theory of evolution.
I fail to see why posting these has been such a difficulty for others.
1. Heritable variation (no uniformity) with reproduction.
2. Non-random mating. Successful mating varies with fitness.
3. Unstable populations. A continual struggle for resources in varying environments.
4. Time. Evolution occurs gradually over time.
On what basis would these assumptions be rejected? How are they all wrong as claimed by some?
I fail to see why posting these has been such a difficulty for others.
1. Heritable variation (no uniformity) with reproduction.
2. Non-random mating. Successful mating varies with fitness.
3. Unstable populations. A continual struggle for resources in varying environments.
4. Time. Evolution occurs gradually over time.
On what basis would these assumptions be rejected? How are they all wrong as claimed by some?
I'm still curious about this. How is the fact that you can buy agar in from 55 lb bags from China a legitimate objection to the Lenski's E. coli experiment? Or is it that this particular brand wasn't available then and that set of a chain of events leading to the death a certain individual pike in Michigan and therefore, Lenski's experiment is flawed? Does it have anything to do with star formation?I have numerous objections to the e coli "experiment" ranging from its relevance, parameters, and execution. Perhaps this highlights my greatest objection;
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You can buy Chinese agar in 55 lb bags!
The materials and methods Lenski uses are available online. I'm surprised that we didn't get links to that instead of nebulous reference to some brand of agar from China that you can purchase in bulk.
Overview of the E. coli long-term evolution experiment
DM25 Liquid Medium
TA agar plates
It is almost as if you are unaware of these things and don't understand what it means or how to use it. Which leads to questions about why you think you have a voice to object to these experiments that so clearly demonstrate natural selection.
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