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Darwin's Illusion

cladking

Well-Known Member
You don't understand natural selection.

I believe the reality is closer to "unnatural selection" than to "survival of the fittest" like Darwin imagined. It's not the fit that survive and create new species over millions of years; it's the ones who have their minds right (or wrong). Selection is based on behavior, consciousness + genes, not fitness. Nature doesn't select for "survival genes" because it selects for "behavior genes".

Until you understand consciousness you can not understand natural selection.

You claim to have fathered an entire species of fly on ignorance and anecdote.

I'd use a different term than "fathered".
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
I'm curious, but I don't expect a serious, reasonable answer that isn't word play.

How is it that you can spend page after page talking about some pseudohistory, or claiming to create a new species of fly, or fish-farming beavers that talk, or fictional species of humans that suddenly replaced all previous humans overnight, but you can't spend five minutes laying out Darwin's assumptions and explaining to us why they are all wrong as you claim? Or instead of naming meaningless categories of objections, provide actual objections to the Lenski E. coli experiment? Or provide any evidence for any of the claims you make along with explanation of why that evidence supports your claims?

It seems like you have the time, so why not a result? What is holding you back?

I've listed several of them even in posts you quoted asking for his assumptions.

Suffice to say you can't see them.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Darwin thought populations were stable? His theory explains why and how they are not.

Darwin was well aware of various factors that caused changes in populations but he didn't believe any species would fill an entire niche or approach a pop of zero. He was only half right. There are strict limitations on how many of most species can exist though this probably doesn't apply to species with complex language and opposable thumbs. But there is no limitations on how few of a species can exist and remain viable. Obviously recovery from a population of one would be extremely long.
You were asked to, "Present Darwin's assumptions citing references that support they are and then show us how they were wrong." Do you think you did that?
Yes! Most are self evident and those that are not have been previously cited chapter and verse.

You have some unique opinions also lacking experimental support that I haven't seen argued anywhere else, but if they did enjoy such support, more people would be arguing with you.

OI have a great number of unique opinions. I usually just say they are based on evidence but will add, when necessary, that they are consistent with logic and theory. Everyone's results will vary but my unique opinions derive primarily from unique assumptions and "no" beliefs at all. I began with the assumption that everybody makes sense all the time in terms of their premises. I believe reality exists and proceeds logically from initial conditions. One will arrive at his assumptions given sufficient time. I have learned we reason in circles because of the way our minds work and we are unique in nature in this specific regard. Superstition kills other life forms. It is the most destructive force in the world but it lies at the heart of all modern thinking.

You just described religion, not science. You must have a different understanding of what experiment is if you have divorced it from observation and evidence.

I shouldda said "looking" and evidence are irrelevant. It's what I meant. We see only what we expect and all evidence is interpreted in terms of models and beliefs. Proper "scientific observation" should be everyone's goal when trying to understand anything (including religion).

But real science and real theory is founded in experiment because experiment discloses bits of reality instead of bits of what we want to see.

All reality is intimately interrelated and so is experiment.

Evidence is what we experience through the senses. Interpretation of that evidence - what is it evidence of - follows, and if done properly, generates sound (correct) conclusions.

Some of the problem here is that we are using somewhat different definitions. To some extent I am just trying to force readers to parse my meaning. This is probably a fool's errand since people can't see my meaning, don't share my premises, and parse words in their own way even when I define my terms. Obviously, "evidence" is more than just a personal interpretation much of the time. But just exactly as we each parse words we parse reality including everything in it (evidence). One sees an oasis, one a mirage, and another salvation. Our experience, senses, and knowledge leads us each in our direction even when this is not apparent.

What you wrote was, "He [Darwin] thought ... consciousness wasn't necessary to life or change in life." Wasn't necessary is a different claim from not known to be necessary.

I think you are splitting hairs here. I don't know what Darwin thought but I do know that he factored consciousness out of every equation and I believe consciousness is fundamental to life and every change in life. I don't think Darwin could possibly have ended up in reality from his assumptions.

He was doomed to be wrong.

That's fine, but until you present them as evidenced argument, your objections are only relevant to you.

It's easier to just dismiss this one experiment. I am talking about significant change in significant species anyway. I am talking about species with higher level consciousness than e coli. An acorn is far more dependent on the vagaries of gravity and wind than its consciousness. The most clever, strongest, or fastest acorns may not have much better luck at being an oak than any other. Mostly all they need to remember is to be oriented properly to send down a tap root.

These are the kinds of passages others have told you lead to ambiguity. I really don't know what the word sudden means to you if these are examples of sudden change. Do you remember posting this? :

Sure. We think of things being "gradual" only because some changes are imperceptible in a lifetime. But these changes are very sudden if you change your perspective. Right now the Horn of Africa is moving away and accelerating at a breakneck pace. We don't see it and don't think about the changes it has caused over the last 10,000 years but it's still true. In a million years when it is out of sight the people then won't really think of it as "sudden" either but it will be as seen from the perspective of time or from Madagascar. Just as the earth isn't the center of reality neither is any human. We view reality from infinite distance and timelessly but other species including ancient man saw everything from the inside and infinite time.

It's not that we're "wrong" per se, merely that much of reality is hidden from our perspective.

Same answer.

I don't care about punctuated equilibrium. When it is shown to be right I'll have some interest.

We know that the ancients relied on superstition and magic. Many modern people still do.

I believe this is false. Before the invention of writing all people were scientists and metaphysicians with most men being predominantly scientists and most women predominantly metaphysicians. They had no choice because it was the nature of language. Just a bee dances ancient people danced with nature. Superstition is impossible in a language that has no abstractions.

Superstition really started at the tower of babel. It started when science and the state failed and homo sapiens arose from the rubble. There was no infrastructure for superstition until abstraction and thinking began.

Everybody would have died after the tower of babel except for ancient technology called agriculture. The world was sufficiently tamed that the destructive forces of superstition were less powerful than farming and the desire to survive.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
1683484921762.png

I sometimes think dogs regret making friends with humans. These two appear to be thinking along these lines.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
This is simple and the evidence abounds. More importantly it is logical and conforms with all known experiment. Not to be overlooked is that this "theory" is "reality" itself in terms of ancient science. I understand the irony here as well as the apparent circular reasoning but the observation and logic create "theory" (thot) in terms of Ancient Language. It is homage to "amun" Himself.

Be that as it may every point still stands. There is evidence for an Ancient Language. There is evidence for a world wide language 10,000 years ago and there is evidence for changes in the human "species". This theory has made many predictions and most have never been tested but all that have been tested have been shown to be true.

The language will never be really translated. It can not be translated. Any reasonable attempt at translation will look like a flow chart. I would do this myself but it would be crammed full of jargon and esoteric, hard to follow, logic. Most is situational so unless you're actually there and see what's going on it will be nearly opaque. In other words actual translations are meaningless to English speakers and only discernable to experts who won't be able to see the logic unless they believe it exists. There is no gain since people won't even believe interpretations based on the ACTUAL LITERAL MEANING of the words.



How odd that archaeological beliefs that ancient people relied on superstition and magic is never questioned!!! How odd that people today believe agriculture and cities were invented with no theory at all!!! How odd that people believe it is only natural that there are no written records dating back to the invention of writing!!! How odd that our species wide amnesia is considered normal!!!

I'm am simply telling you based on the physical evidence why such anomalies exist. Every species has its own natural species specific science. Ours was merely more complex because our language was more complex so each generation stood on the shoulders of the one before.



You can't "read" their writing. Your brain has been rewired to parse words and their words could not be parsed. I can show you the intended meaning since the intended meaning is hidden right inside the literal meaning. It's the same way with communicating with animals. We don't format speech or communication the way they do. Cave men understood no abstractions and almost every word in modern language has some level of abstraction in its meaning. Their language was mathematical, binary, representative, and metaphysical. Our language has none of these characteristics and it is formatted differently. They can never be translated. They must be interpreted in terms of the literal meaning.

All of that, are just bunch of claims, cladking. None of them are evidence.

The claims, are “made up”, as in your “invention”, which you have no evidence. You are claiming knowledge of 40,000 people that possessed language and science that don’t exist, except in your speculation, and in your fantasies and delusions.

You are metaphysician and a generalist, essentially a philosopher, with no education in biology (including neuroscience, since you have brought up brain), in paleontology, in philology, in archaeology, and so on.

You really never study any language other than English, so how can you even they think logically or think metaphysically. You invented narrative to the 40,000 years ago people, which are purely speculative.

Plus, science is about knowledge that can be explained, as there are no language to study 40,000 years ago, no such explanations exist. Science isn’t about logic alone: knowledge/explanations required to be testable, and only tests are observations, and these observations include evidence (including experiments) and data. It is with these evidence that you would verify if such explanations are true.

You have claimed you have “all the evidence” or all the experiments, but not once, have you supported your speculations, your narratives and your claims, with these massive numbers of evidence at your disposal. Which means your so-called evidence, is another bogus claim, where the evidence don’t exist.

You have never studied any human fossil, nor have you ever study human brains before, living or dead brain - and when I mean study, I mean real experiences in examining the evidence, such as the brains or fossils.

Remember you have some argument with someone in the past, about brain biology, person or people have to corrected you, repeatedly.

You have never touched or studied living brain before, have you?​
You have never touched or studied fossils before, have you?​
And you have never deciphered or translated any non-writing ancient symbols before, have you?​

You never have any evidence, cladking, just a bunch of circular claims that you can justify with your (confirmation) biases.

Until show actual evidence, your fantasies are just that, invented narratives, that have no basis of reality.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Plus, science is about knowledge that can be explained, as there are no language to study 40,000 years ago, no such explanations exist. Science isn’t about logic alone: knowledge/explanations required to be testable, and only tests are observations, and these observations include evidence (including experiments) and data.

Logic plays no role in science because homo omnisciencis is in no way logical and every scientist today s homo omnisciencis. I don't know how many times I've said this. And you still think metaphysics is philosophy after I defined it dozens of times for you alone!!!! The evidence for Ancient Language has been presented several times and you simply gainsay it. You hand wave most of it and deny what's left. You can't seem to even see most of it because it doesn't fit your beliefs.

You have claimed you have “all the evidence” or all the experiments, but not once, have you supported your speculations, your narratives and your claims, with these massive numbers of evidence at your disposal. Which means your so-called evidence, is another bogus claim, where the evidence don’t exist.

You've never challenged anything. Maybe if you presented an experiment to show ANYTHING I say is wrong then I would present evidence or specific experiment but since every experiment agrees with me I don't need to. Here's your proof;


But you can't cite a single one of these that show I'm wrong.

This is about failed paradigms and Darwin's failed assumptions.

Why don't you lecture me about the meaning of the word "metaphysics" again?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
The problem isn't Darwin was wrong. The problem is we won't jettison all the things he got wrong.

But you have never which areas he got wrong. All you do is just lump everything to “survival of the fittest”, which isn’t even an biological mechanism, plus Herbert Spencer coined that term, not Darwin.

The “survival of the fittest” is merely Spencer’s interpretation of Natural Selection.

So basically, your problem is really with Spencer’s errors, not with Darwin’s Natural Selection.

Natural Selection is the mechanism in the theory of Evolution, not this “survival of the fittest”.

Now, if you would focus on the modern Natural Selection, as to where contemporary biologists got it wrong, then you may have rationality to your argument. But you haven’t done that, all you would focused on is the bloody “survival of the fittest”.

Show where the modern mechanism is wrong, cladking. Can you not read?
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
DARWIN CALLED IT SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST BUT IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU CALL IT, IT IS WRONG.

Call it strong is best, fast is better, or stay awake to live and it is all wrong. Nature doesn't select for fitness or anything else.

IT IS WRONG!!!

It is just Darwin's illusion.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Some of the problem here is that we are using somewhat different definitions. To some extent I am just trying to force readers to parse my meaning.
If your goal is to be understood, you want to be clear, not to force people to try to guess what you might mean.
I think you are splitting hairs here.
The difference between claiming that consciousness wasn't necessary for life to exist or evolve is as different from not claiming that it is as the claim that atheists say there is no god is from atheists don't believe in gods.
He [Darwin] was doomed to be wrong.
But he was correct. You disagree, but haven't made your case.
We think of things being "gradual" only because some changes are imperceptible in a lifetime. But these changes are very sudden if you change your perspective.
So, in your mind, because you can't see an hour hand move, but can look away and come back later and notice that it has, that that is an example of a sudden change?
Superstition really started at the tower of babel.
You think that that was the first superstition? It's myth, you know - not history.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
What's your proof?
The proof is that illustrations are not the actuality. Such as someone saying it's as hot as hell in here. How hot is hell? If you look up the definitions in the Bible of death and hell, you will see many religious sects have distorted it.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
DARWIN CALLED IT SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST BUT IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU CALL IT, IT IS WRONG.

Call it strong is best, fast is better, or stay awake to live and it is all wrong. Nature doesn't select for fitness or anything else.

IT IS WRONG!!!

It is just Darwin's illusion.
Well it is a good thing that Darwin never said "Survival of the fittest",


He argued against that phrase. So are you now saying that Darwin was right after all since you are so terribly wrong in the one answer to my challenge that you gave?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Very many people who study and research and experiment - "scientists" and everyone else, but here, specifically those who identify as professionals of science - utterly reject the outdated fantasies of Darwin. Some of them give lip service, in order not to be prejudicially excluded from receiving grants and being published.

There are over half a dozen alternatives to Darwin, attempting to explain varieties (genera, families, types, or as Darwin said, "kinds", etc.) or "body plans" or structures (surface and deep) of life forms. I am partial to the Third Way and Dependency Graph, coupled with Roger Tarbutton’s Natural Genetic Engineering. Actuality is probably to be expressesed by a combination of developing views.
And yet here many will keep defending the Darwinian projection.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
DARWIN CALLED IT SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST BUT IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU CALL IT, IT IS WRONG.

Call it strong is best, fast is better, or stay awake to live and it is all wrong. Nature doesn't select for fitness or anything else.

IT IS WRONG!!!

It is just Darwin's illusion.
Don't worry. God is going to win. Not those holding to a wrong concept.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
But you have never which areas he got wrong. All you do is just lump everything to “survival of the fittest”, which isn’t even an biological mechanism, plus Herbert Spencer coined that term, not Darwin.

The “survival of the fittest” is merely Spencer’s interpretation of Natural Selection.

So basically, your problem is really with Spencer’s errors, not with Darwin’s Natural Selection.

Natural Selection is the mechanism in the theory of Evolution, not this “survival of the fittest”.

Now, if you would focus on the modern Natural Selection, as to where contemporary biologists got it wrong, then you may have rationality to your argument. But you haven’t done that, all you would focused on is the bloody “survival of the fittest”.

Show where the modern mechanism is wrong, cladking. Can you not read?
So is it (evolution) in your eyes survival of the fittest or not?
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
The proof is that illustrations are not the actuality. Such as someone saying it's as hot as hell in here. How hot is hell? If you look up the definitions in the Bible of death and hell, you will see many religious sects have distorted it.

And the proof your religion has it right is?
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
I believe the reality is closer to "unnatural selection" than to "survival of the fittest" like Darwin imagined. It's not the fit that survive and create new species over millions of years; it's the ones who have their minds right (or wrong). Selection is based on behavior, consciousness + genes, not fitness. Nature doesn't select for "survival genes" because it selects for "behavior genes".

Until you understand consciousness you can not understand natural selection.



I'd use a different term than "fathered".

Fittest doesn't mean strongest or fastest, it means the most likely to survive and reproduce. Behaviour can certainly influence survival. It seems you're arguing against yourself.
 
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