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Darwin's Illusion

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
No it doesn't.

Any shift in soil will also move the remains.

Plus, while the remain are only buried topsoil, the uppermost layer, fossilisation haven't yet begun.

plus. The sediments won't have yet to turn soil into stone too. It takes time for that to happen as in tens or hundreds of thousands of years, or even millions of years
I guess you don't get the point. So I'll say it again. Soil shifts. Dates of when and where the soil came from are questionable to say the least. I'm going to say this -- even though you don't believe it -- floods and terrific rainstorms and earhquakes obviously make a difference in dating as to when things happened (like when an animal lived). Yes, it takes time for soil to turn fossils into stonelike vestiges. But the fossils do not have to represent the time the animal died. Or when the item was laid on the level of soil and possibly covered over by more soil shifting.
 

Astrophile

Active Member
Can I have an English translation? Or even better an Aussie English translation?
There are various ways in which soils move over the underlying rock. Some of them are slow, such as soil creep ('the slow downward progression of rock and soil down a low-grade slope') and solifluction (downward movement of surface material in periglacial regions due to seasonal freezing and thawing). Others are faster, such as mudflows and debris flows ('fast-moving flows of debris and dirt that have become liquefied by the addition of water') and lahars (volcanic mudflows and debris flows composed of pyroclastic material (volcanic ash), debris and water). Although these movements of surface material can be impressive and destructive, they do not affect the deeper underlying rock, so they do not change the radiometric ages of these rocks or the ages inferred for the fossils they contain.

Is that clearer than the original post?
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
There are various ways in which soils move over the underlying rock. Some of them are slow, such as soil creep ('the slow downward progression of rock and soil down a low-grade slope') and solifluction (downward movement of surface material in periglacial regions due to seasonal freezing and thawing). Others are faster, such as mudflows and debris flows ('fast-moving flows of debris and dirt that have become liquefied by the addition of water') and lahars (volcanic mudflows and debris flows composed of pyroclastic material (volcanic ash), debris and water). Although these movements of surface material can be impressive and destructive, they do not affect the deeper underlying rock, so they do not change the radiometric ages of these rocks or the ages inferred for the fossils they contain.

Is that clearer than the original post?

I'm no expert but I'm assuming there has to be soil movement to cover the dead animal or a fossil wouldn't occur and the "soil moves" response was something worthy of ridicule. But it's the middle of the night and I've just woken from fever dreams because I'm on deaths door with man flu, maybe I'm mistaken.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I'm no expert but I'm assuming there has to be soil movement to cover the dead animal or a fossil wouldn't occur and the "soil moves" response was something worthy of ridicule. But it's the middle of the night and I've just woken from fever dreams because I'm on deaths door with man flu, maybe I'm mistaken.
Think "erosion and deposition".
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You should pay more attention to old testament genetics.

Goats and sheep family group Bovidae, subfamily Caprinae however they split at the genus level so close relatives but definitely a difference.




Sure will, got out of a trip to Costco so my day has evolved nicely so I will enjoy, thanks.
It evidently was a custom back then; it has nothing to do with prenatal genetics.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I'm no expert but I'm assuming there has to be soil movement to cover the dead animal or a fossil wouldn't occur and the "soil moves" response was something worthy of ridicule. But it's the middle of the night and I've just woken from fever dreams because I'm on deaths door with man flu, maybe I'm mistaken.
People have n o idea how rare terrestrial fossils of vertebrates are. Most species probably leave no fossil evidence at all. There are quite a few factors that affect preservation. There is the size of the organism, A large organism can undergo can withstand a lot more erosion than a large one. It takes almost nothing to erode away a hummingbird corpse. A brontosaur can last for years. What sort of environment did the organism die in? An arid climate is more amenable to preservation than one would find in a tropical or temperate forest. Then there needs to be a source of sediments that can cover it. "Lucy" for example was found in sandstone from a stream deposit. And that was sandwiched by volcanic ash above and below it. The streams that bury many fossils tend to be intermittent ones. They are not usually huge stable rivers. Her body may have been washed downstream a bit until it landed in a more stable low area where she was buried deeper and deeper over the ages.


Many terrestrial fossils are found in such "fossil graveyards". Rare flash flooding appears to be the cause when hundreds of dinosaurs are caught unaware. Those usually occur near mountain ranges where there is much more erosion and deposition than elsewhere. The erosion rates of mountains is orders of magnitude higher than in the plains. I am sure that Australia has both areas of very flat land and mountainous regions. You can see from the streams that flow through those areas that one is undergoing rapid erosion and the other almost none.

If one wants to see "slow gradual change" the place to go to is marine fossils. Especially those of some of the smaller species where there is an excellent record. But even then there can be many that we miss. We are only going to see species of relatively shallow water that live close to the continents. Almost everything that dies and falls to the deep ocean floor is going to be lost when the plate undergoes subduction. zones. That is why the finding of modern coelacanth were a surprise. Coelacanth is an entire order of fish, humans are just one member of the order of primates. To make the mistake of saying that there was no evolution of coelacanth is just like saying that there are no evolutionary differences between humans and lemurs. Before the K/Pg extinction there were quite a few shallow water species. We knew nothing of deep water coelacanth since they leave no record. When the shallow water species died it was assumed that the order died. But as you know that was shown to be wrong.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
It is difficult but not impossible; over the last 200 years geologists have devoted a great deal of time and effort to finding and improving methods of measuring the ages of rocks and fossils. Also, the fact that 'it can be difficult to establish exactly when particular evolutionary changes happened' does not cast doubt on the reality of those evolutionary changes.
One might accept these things as reality, but really :)-) ) also in reality the mechanics of evolution as they purportedly happened have never been uncovered.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm no expert but I'm assuming there has to be soil movement to cover the dead animal or a fossil wouldn't occur and the "soil moves" response was something worthy of ridicule. But it's the middle of the night and I've just woken from fever dreams because I'm on deaths door with man flu, maybe I'm mistaken.
I have seen the claims, but I haven't seen any reason to accept the claims are more than a desperate attempt to find anything to throw at the theory of evolution and the dating of fossils.

Soil forms. It moves. Things die and are covered in it and their bodies become it. How any of that can invalidate dating techniques has yet to be explained. Frankly, I'm not making popcorn in anticipation of a riveting explanation citing a pile of relevant work showing that the dating is confounded due to soil or other mass movement.

Hope you are feeling better.
 
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John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
I have seen the claims, but I haven't seen any reason to accept the claims are more than a desperate attempt to find anything to throw at the theory of evolution and the dating of fossils.

Soil forms. It moves. Things die and are covered in it and their bodies become it. How any of that can invalidate dating techniques has yet to be explained. Frankly, I'm not making popcorn in anticipation of a riveting explanation citing a pile of relevant work showing that the dating is confounded due to soil or other mass movement.

Hope you are feeling better.

Soil can move as much as it wants, that's not going to change the age of sedimentary rock a fossil forms in. If it gets washed or blown off it's not going to form into rock and the animal will just rot and not become a fossil. That's my understanding anyway.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
Soil can move as much as it wants, that's not going to change the age of sedimentary rock a fossil forms in. If it gets washed or blown off it's not going to form into rock and the animal will just rot and not become a fossil. That's my understanding anyway.
That is pretty much the quick and dirty of it.

I wonder if much of this is just to keep the creation side going so it looks like they have a horse in the race.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
I didn't finish high school, I left to pursue a career in primary producer (AKA farm hand on a dairy)
The difference is that you don't make sloppy, poorly thought out posts that often don't have anything to do with the topic of discussion. Presumably, your education was highly effective and you kept feeding your mind even after you no longer had to account for it.
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
The difference is that you don't make sloppy, poorly thought out posts that often don't have anything to do with the topic of discussion. Presumably, your education was highly effective and you kept feeding your mind even after you no longer had to account for it.

I think most of it is common sense and looking at the evidence with an unbiased mind.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I have seen the claims, but I haven't seen any reason to accept the claims are more than a desperate attempt to find anything to throw at the theory of evolution and the dating of fossils.

Soil forms. It moves. Things die and are covered in it and their bodies become it. How any of that can invalidate dating techniques has yet to be explained. Frankly, I'm not making popcorn in anticipation of a riveting explanation citing a pile of relevant work showing that the dating is confounded due to soil or other mass movement.

Hope you are feeling better.
As far as invalidating dating techniques, the point is not that the technique is unscientifuc. But that to say a fossil lived around such and such a time based on dating simply cannot be taken as absolute for several reasons. The one I am concentrating on is not the dating process itself, although we know that estimates are made to determine the age along with the testing process, but rather the -- yes -- soil shifting and accumulation of the soil absorbed in the bones, literally changing the substance. Yes, no telling where the soil may have come from in that scenario. Note please that I do NOT subscribe to the interpretation some have of each 'day' of creation being 24 hours long. It is obvious from soil shifting that millions of years may be involved. I - am - speaking of - the lack of evidence of evolution per se. Fossils are there, yes. The process of evolution as contemplated by scientists regarding evolution of, for example, birds from dinosaurs via natural selection and survival of the fittest? No. Feather imprints found on dinosaur fossils? No contest. But birds stemming from dinosaurs due to evolution per the process of natural selection and survival of the fittest? No. No evidence or proof, and by proof I mean the absolute evidence showing the burgeoning process. None. And yes -- again -- fish are still fish, regardless of the theory that they eventually evolved to become humans.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
As far as invalidating dating techniques, the point is not that the technique is unscientifuc. But that to say a fossil lived around such and such a time based on dating simply cannot be taken as absolute for several reasons. The one I am concentrating on is not the dating process itself, although we know that estimates are made to determine the age along with the testing process, but rather the -- yes -- soil shifting and accumulation of the soil absorbed in the bones, literally changing the substance. Yes, no telling where the soil may have come from in that scenario. Note please that I do NOT subscribe to the interpretation some have of each 'day' of creation being 24 hours long. It is obvious from soil shifting that millions of years may be involved. I - am - speaking of - the lack of evidence of evolution per se. Fossils are there, yes. The process of evolution as contemplated by scientists regarding evolution of, for example, birds from dinosaurs via natural selection and survival of the fittest? No. Feather imprints found on dinosaur fossils? No contest. But birds stemming from dinosaurs due to evolution per the process of natural selection and survival of the fittest? No. No evidence or proof, and by proof I mean the absolute evidence showing the burgeoning process. None. And yes -- again -- fish are still fish, regardless of the theory that they eventually evolved to become humans.
You need something much stronger than a pure bull**** argument based upon your ignorance. You keep ignoring the facts that show that you are wrong. Right now your argument is so bad that it looks as if you are merely lying.


You have repeatedly demonstrated that you do not even understand the concept of evidence. Which means that at best you are arguing on the level of a fifth grader. Do you think that anyone gives your poor arguments any credibility at all?
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
I think most of it is common sense and looking at the evidence with an unbiased mind.
Common sense is not so common as it is uttered.

I see it as the application of a basic logic put to the facts. Some people have it and some don't. Some apparently don't want it.

What I think creationists do is avoid common sense in favor of bias and logical fallacies. In some cases, very fanciful, illogical notions that bear no standard of acceptance except to believe it or not. Given a lack of evidence and the irrational, speculative and often sloppy presentation, not believing is the only reasonable alternative.

Fish are still fish is a good example. It reveals a lack of understanding of the theory of evolution and imposes a straw man version that is linear and not branching. It is not an application of the theory to expect we wouldn't see fish. Or would see them.

Demands of proof when it has been explained numerous times that proof is not a standard of science. Yet, another straw man that is more like a straw horse ridden into the dirt until dead and then beaten again and again. A double standard as well, given those using it have no proof of anything they believe.

In addition to common sense, and efforts to minimize bias, are knowledge and awareness. These things can be nurtured in education, but that isn't required to gain them and possess them.
 
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Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
As far as invalidating dating techniques, the point is not that the technique is unscientifuc.
It isn't. It is application of prior work, sound, repeatable principles and corroboration of unrelated methods and information.
But that to say a fossil lived around such and such a time based on dating simply cannot be taken as absolute for several reasons.
Fossils are not alive and did not live anywhere. The animals and plants whose physical remains became fossilized did once live, but we have no proof of that. So, perhaps you should abandon this all-together.

No one is claiming that the findings of science are absolute. Well...except creationists of course. But that is not science. It is biased denial.

Different techniques corroborate each other. Other evidence corroborates the dating. And vice versa. No one has found any consistent means to refute the dating and demonstrate it all wrong.
The one I am concentrating on is not the dating process itself, although we know that estimates are made to determine the age along with the testing process, but rather the -- yes -- soil shifting and accumulation of the soil absorbed in the bones, literally changing the substance.
Is there any evidence for this? It just sounds like some desperate ploy to keep your side of the debate alive and a poor attempt to wedge doubt, no matter how meaningless, into the debate. Doubt is built into science, but acceptance requires evidence.

You need to establish the relationship between soil and fossils that you claim exists. Mineralized fossils are not the only form of fossil, but they are essentially rock in a matrix of rock. Where does the soil come into this and what does it matter if it shifts above the rocks?

You have to show us that soil enters the rock and causes some sort of change to the fossils and the matrix for that matter.

Then you have to demonstrate that this change impacts dating in some way that gives false results.

You've done none of this. In typical fashion, you just repeat it over and over regardless of the input of others.

You are clearly not a geologist, geochemist or paleontologist, yet you consider your poorly informed opinion to be expertise in those fields. You pose these things as if they are a "gotcha moment" that no scientist ever conceived or followed up or more likely dismissed, given no evidence or reason to consider.

Yes, no telling where the soil may have come from in that scenario.
And no telling what, if anything that would mean here. The only evidence to go on is that you keep repeating something about it.
Note please that I do NOT subscribe to the interpretation some have of each 'day' of creation being 24 hours long.
There is nothing in the Bible that would indicate that the days of creation are not literally 24 hour days. You've just decided to view that part metaphorically and the rest literally by some arbitrary standard of your own.

That verse in Peter is pretty slim evidence to conclude that an actual 24 hour day was not meant or was meant.
It is obvious from soil shifting that millions of years may be involved.
No, it is not obvious. You have to have some evidence to demonstrate that soil is that old, shifted during that span and that the soil and the shifting mean something in the context of fossils and the dating of them.
I - am - speaking of - the lack of evidence of evolution per se.
You are speaking that claim in the context of 200 years of accumulated evidence that supports evolution. You just ignore that as if it were nothing and that your personal claims should be accepted by default without any evidence at all to share with the group.
Fossils are there, yes.
Now we are in the realm of the obvious.
The process of evolution as contemplated by scientists regarding evolution of, for example, birds from dinosaurs via natural selection and survival of the fittest?
Survival of the fittest is an outdated and poor description of natural selection. To say both in the same sense is a false dichotomy of sorts. Though, I think more out of ignorance of the subject then intent.
No. Feather imprints found on dinosaur fossils?
You are starting to loose coherence here. You seem to be indicating that you accept that fossils of feathered dinosaurs have been found and are known. If so, I agree.
No contest.
So then, yes. I was correct that you accept that.
But birds stemming from dinosaurs due to evolution per the process of natural selection and survival of the fittest? No.
Again with the dichotomy. The evidence that you claim doesn't exist for evolution exists and the conclusion based on that evidence is that birds evolved from a dinosaur ancestry. You are just denying that in favor of your chosen ideology.
No evidence or proof, and by proof I mean the absolute evidence showing the burgeoning process.
This has been explained to you so often it hardly bears repeating and is why I do not feel any compelling need to respond to you further. You just want to deny it for personal reasons and cannot provide anything substantial to support that denial other than what you have chosen for personal, subjective reasons to believe.
None. And yes -- again -- fish are still fish, regardless of the theory that they eventually evolved to become humans.
Again, something that has been explained to you ad nauseum and something that you will repeat ad nauseum despite the explanations.

Given that you have chosen to accept no evidence that challenges the literal view of what you have chosen to believe, I see no reason to continue a discussion that is going to be largely made up of incoherent responses and the repetition of claims about proof and fish remaining fish.

I will speak no further with you on this.

In reality, I would only need to close my front door to end the visit. Here, apparently, I have to be more explicit.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
Soil can move as much as it wants, that's not going to change the age of sedimentary rock a fossil forms in. If it gets washed or blown off it's not going to form into rock and the animal will just rot and not become a fossil. That's my understanding anyway.
Soil moves over time through erosion by wind and rain. More rapid (sudden?) mass movement can occur from volcanic eruptions, earthquakes and landslides.

I agree, there is nothing to indicate that the overlying soil has any confounding effect on the results of dating the underlying strata or the fossils found in it.

I was doing some reading on loess soils. These are fine-grained, mineral-rich soils deposited by winds. We have some of these soils here in Missouri, but most are along the Mississippi in the northwest corner of the state. I have not been to them, but I'm interested to see the sorts of habitat they form and the insects that inhabit those spaces.

Wind-formed soils are less common compared to the erosional deposition of water. But an interesting fact that wind deposition is known to feed the Amazon with a constant supply of mineral-rich dust from the Sahara. It is a phenomena that is tracked by NASA.

Saharan Dust Feeds Amazon’s Plants

There is nothing to indicate that this dust would alter the geological strata of South America making dating of that strata incorrect.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Soil moves over time through erosion by wind and rain. More rapid (sudden?) mass movement can occur from volcanic eruptions, earthquakes and landslides.

I agree, there is nothing to indicate that the overlying soil has any confounding effect on the results of dating the underlying strata or the fossils found in it.

I was doing some reading on loess soils. These are fine-grained, mineral-rich soils deposited by winds. We have some of these soils here in Missouri, but most are along the Mississippi in the northwest corner of the state. I have not been to them, but I'm interested to see the sorts of habitat they form and the insects that inhabit those spaces.

Wind-formed soils are less common compared to the erosional deposition of water. But an interesting fact that wind deposition is known to feed the Amazon with a constant supply of mineral-rich dust from the Sahara. It is a phenomena that is tracked by NASA.

Saharan Dust Feeds Amazon’s Plants

There is nothing to indicate that this dust would alter the geological strata of South America making dating of that strata incorrect.
A person has to understand the different sorts of environments. An environment can be almost purely erosive. In other words only erosion plays a role. A steep mountain slope is an example of that. Or one can be purely depositional. A deep ocean basin is an example of that.

Many environments can be a mix. Sedimentary rocks form in environments of net deposition over long periods of time. Due to the nature of deposits we can often see that there was no "shifting" over long periods of time. Times of erosion can be identified since it is far less even than deposition. It may take tin sections and a cross polarized microscope to see it, but those periods can be seen. And any "mixing" is usually visible to the naked eye.


One of my go to examples is the Green River Formation. It has millions of years of delicate annual deposits. Erosion and redeposition, which is how "shifting" would have to occur, would leave clear evidence behind. We do not see that evidence. The layers of the Green River Formation are on average only 0.18 mm thick. Multiply that by five million and you will have its rough thickness. Now there could even have been some erosion and deposition of those eroded sediments elsewhere. But that would only harm @YoursTrue arguments since we only see fine annual deposition. Her "shifting" could only make the deposits older. Since there is no sign of redeposition there.


If one wants examples of such annual layers visible to the naked eye we have those too. The Castile Formation of western Texas and eastern New Mexico is an example of that. It has hundreds of thousands of annual salt deposits. Once again the burden of proof would be on her to show how they could have been formed by "shifting".
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
A person has to understand the different sorts of environments. An environment can be almost purely erosive. In other words only erosion plays a role. A steep mountain slope is an example of that. Or one can be purely depositional. A deep ocean basin is an example of that.

Many environments can be a mix. Sedimentary rocks form in environments of net deposition over long periods of time. Due to the nature of deposits we can often see that there was no "shifting" over long periods of time. Times of erosion can be identified since it is far less even than deposition. It may take tin sections and a cross polarized microscope to see it, but those periods can be seen. And any "mixing" is usually visible to the naked eye.


One of my go to examples is the Green River Formation. It has millions of years of delicate annual deposits. Erosion and redeposition, which is how "shifting" would have to occur, would leave clear evidence behind. We do not see that evidence. The layers of the Green River Formation are on average only 0.18 mm thick. Multiply that by five million and you will have its rough thickness. Now there could even have been some erosion and deposition of those eroded sediments elsewhere. But that would only harm @YoursTrue arguments since we only see fine annual deposition. Her "shifting" could only make the deposits older. Since there is no sign of redeposition there.


If one wants examples of such annual layers visible to the naked eye we have those too. The Castile Formation of western Texas and eastern New Mexico is an example of that. It has hundreds of thousands of annual salt deposits. Once again the burden of proof would be on her to show how they could have been formed by "shifting".
It isn't just the shifting of sediments or soil, but a claim that the soil alters the rock and fossils in some unspecified way that confounds dating.

Soils are usually younger than the underlying rock formations and are generally derived from the breakdown of that rock by physical and chemical erosion as well as the organic components of from living things. Being younger, if this magical confounding process had any validity, it seems as if it would imply errors for more recent dates rather than older.

It is the rock that alters the soil and not the other way round.

There is really nothing to take stock of in examining claims like that.
 
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