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Darwin's Illusion

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Can those who believe that evolution is true briefly explain what evolution is? Also what they mean by "creationism". Thanks. That might help a discussion. But I doubt various enthusiasts of the concept of evolution and those who use the terms creationism or "creationists" will do so. Probably telling me I need to learn basics. Why is that? I'm guessing their answers. Based on experience. So possible answers: I'm too ignorant which has been said in various ways, I'm not willing to learn, which has also been said, or...the best one is they cannot. Hope y'all have a good day!!
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I have insulted no one. I have pointed out the flaws in the posts of another. Considering how vigorous they are in their claims, I met them with equal vigor. Rigorous review and rebuttal of what another posts is not insulting. It is paying them a courtesy. Something I often don't receive, even when I request it numerous times.

However, I have been curious about this nameless religious person that you keep referring to in so many posts. It seems very much like you wish to call them out for their beliefs. I hope not and I hope it isn't to attack them for their beliefs.

You have a good day.
I disagree with your assessment. Have a good day.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I have insulted no one. I have pointed out the flaws in the posts of another. Considering how vigorous they are in their claims, I met them with equal vigor. Rigorous review and rebuttal of what another posts is not insulting. It is paying them a courtesy. Something I often don't receive, even when I request it numerous times.

However, I have been curious about this nameless religious person that you keep referring to in so many posts. It seems very much like you wish to call them out for their beliefs. I hope not and I hope it isn't to attack them for their beliefs.

You have a good day.
Plus I'm not sure of what you're talking about. However, when a person gets offended if they're called out for their beliefs, why would they be offended? Not referring to particular ones of course. Oh well I won't go any further. Have a good day.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
All I'm asking for is a definition of "creationism" by those who use the term. Thank you and have a nice day.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
All true knowledge is experiential knowledge. You can go to the young new doctor who is up on all the latest or and old sawbones who's seen it all before.
At this point in my experience I don't necessarily want a new doctor or an old one. Rather a middling one if possible.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The contradictory claim that words have both an infinite number of meanings and that words have a single fixed meaning doesn't make any sense to me. This example is one of many contradictions that are often presented in the same post or group of posts. How would you reconcile or address that sort of thinking? It seems like the same sort of "all over the place" claims of creationists.
I've suggested that thinkers with ideas that are rejected by mainstream academia have a motive to attempt to undermine standards for knowledge and the authority of experts. And so, they introduce confusion and uncertainty where there is little or none. Everything's subjective, and nothing you think you know is really known - a sort of epistemological relativism (or nihilism in the extreme forms).
at best most [doctors] are very well educated technicians.
You're describing the surgeons and others who use their hands in their work. There are also the docs who make a living with their heads, like internists, pathologists, and radiologists. But none of us are scientists if we aren't doing research.
Which fossil or group of fossils shows species change because of survival of the fittest?
Fossils show that the anatomy of life has changed over time. Fossils of extinct forms alone don't confirm the theory, but their absence in a world where only modern forms were found in the ground would jeopardize it. Thus, fossils are necessary but not sufficient to confirm the theory.
Which fossil or group of fossils shows species change gradually?
The most direct evidence for that doesn't come from fossils directly, but through extrapolation of collected fossil data consistent with gradual evolution. Of course, your definitions of gradual and sudden are a bit different than mine. You once described the collision of galaxies as a sudden event by comparing it to the life of the galaxies.
And how many times have I told you that "evidence" is always interpreted.
That's true, but I think you mean that it is all evaluated personally. Yes, each of us is a subject experiencing an object (objective reality) and modifying it as we generate the conscious content, but we can make that evaluation more objective using interobserver opinion when there is a high degree of agreement (consensus), and that's all we really need to know about objective reality - the predictable ways it manifests in conscious content.
You might think you can read something in a book and it becomes knowledge but you are mistaken.
So what should I do with this sentence of yours I just read? Disregard it?
We're all in the same boat. Nobody knows much of anything.
This is an example of you trying to level the playing field by invalidating the authority of others who actually do know quite a bit more than most.

I saw this during the pandemic and discussions on vaccine efficacy involving science deniers here on RF and elsewhere. Somebody would make a correct scientific statement about the relative risk of vaccination to acquiring Covid unvaccinated, and somebody would say, "That's just your opinion" in an effort to level the playing field and undermine the possibility of expert opinion. And I realized that this is what Dunning and Kruger were writing about. I had always imagined that it described people who understood that there were better thinkers among us and imagined that they were among them.

But now I understand it as people not realizing that there is a better way to process information than guessing as they do as with vaccines. They think all opinions are equal, because they're all arrived at the only way they ever arrived at any belief - choosing to believe it without justification. They're unaware of what critical thinking and justified thought are, or that other people can know much more than they do and know it with relative assurance that they are correct - an opinion often called arrogant by those who are unaware of this world of justified thought.
I believe "creationists" may have different definitions of what "creationism" means. Or maybe you do. Who knows?
For me, anybody who believes that the world was created by an intelligent designer - my definition of a god - is a creationist (synonym supernaturalist). Everybody else would be a naturalist or physicalist. Nature assembled itself and runs itself without intelligent supervision or input.
I SUPPOSE they, the medical doctors, study science, do you think?
Yes. My experience is fifty years old now, but is probably still mostly relevant. They generally are science oriented and are exposed to physics, chemistry, and biology in high school and as undergrads. I took a course in astronomy and one in evolution, and learned electronics. University physics and chemistry were a little more advanced. My undergraduate degree was in biochemistry.

Medical school is all life and behavioral science. First year is anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, behavioral science, medical microbiology, and medical pharmacology. The last two were known as bugs and drugs.

But as noted, the practice of medicine is applied science, and physicians are not scientists.

I completed my survey of the sciences when done with internship and residency at home, where I learned about quantum science, relativity, cosmology, and the earth sciences.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Yes, but until you learn the basics of science there is no advancing. That is why I tried to go over the concept of evolution with you. It is why we try to teach you the scientific method.
I have said this, and I will say it again -- while there are fossils that are not those of current types of animals, this does not mean there is evolution as understood to be that from fish to humans in the long run, so to speak. :) I think the Pope is a smart man. But how he figured that evolution is ok, or maybe or is (I can't remember his exact expression on this) the way God created or did things, I can't figure. I guess he went along with the reasoning that maybe survival of the fittest or natural selection was the way God did things?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I have said this, and I will say it again -- while there are fossils that are not those of current types of animals, this does not mean there is evolution as understood to be that from fish to humans in the long run, so to speak. :) I think the Pope is a smart man. But how he figured that evolution is ok, or maybe or is (I can't remember his exact expression on this) the way God created or did things, I can't figure. I guess he went along with the reasoning that maybe survival of the fittest or natural selection was the way God did things?
You phrase your arguments so poorly. Like it or not fossils are evidence for evolution. Would you like to learn why?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You phrase your arguments so poorly. Like it or not fossils are evidence for evolution. Would you like to learn why?
I believe I already know why. (Not that I believe the argument,) But if you can say it in a small enough paragraph that will be ok.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You phrase your arguments so poorly. Like it or not fossils are evidence for evolution. Would you like to learn why?
Not going to discuss why you think it's poorly phrased. Maybe another time.
I looked up the reasoning about fish to humans and learn that some fish do watch over their young. Not all need to. Then I figured it must be a particular kind of fish that is said to have evolved to eventually become human. Would you agree with this?
 

Soandso

ᛋᛏᚨᚾᛞ ᛋᚢᚱᛖ
Can those who believe that evolution is true briefly explain what evolution is? Also what they mean by "creationism". Thanks. That might help a discussion. But I doubt various enthusiasts of the concept of evolution and those who use the terms creationism or "creationists" will do so. Probably telling me I need to learn basics. Why is that? I'm guessing their answers. Based on experience. So possible answers: I'm too ignorant which has been said in various ways, I'm not willing to learn, which has also been said, or...the best one is they cannot. Hope y'all have a good day!!

Oh jeez... It's such a complex topic that asking for a basic answer is asking a lot, imo, and I'm nowhere near educated on the topic enough myself to give a very good answer. I was raised with creation science in a religious school setting, so I'd probably know more about that than evolution. Given all that, I'll try and give as basic an answer as I can muster

The science behind evolution is similar to forensic science, and just like forensic science, is bolstered by many other fields of science that work in tandem to help paint a clearer picture of past life and it's history. Those other fielda of science include ones such as geology, astronomy, paleoclimateology, paleontology, etc etc. The evidence gathered by all of these different schools of science seem to show that, over a nearly unfathomable period of time, life seems to have slowly mutated over that time given the fossil record so consistently and predictably occurs in tandem with other events and occurances uncovered in these various other fields of science - especially paleontology and geology

Just like all other theories, evolution has to stand up to the scrutiny of the scientific community as a whole. There's a lot of incentive for those in the scientific community to bring down a theory as sound and established as evolution is, but none have been able to do so yet - it is the very best theory we have that shows what the history of life on earth looked like, and all the evidence found and continue to find only serves to strengthen it. There's really nothing to suggest that will change any time soon, either

If anyone would like to correct me or add anything else, please do!
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
No. Not at all. Corrections are necessary for learning. It is the manner if which a correction is given that can be insulting and not helpful.
If a person refuses to learn, especially after they have been kindly corrected countless times and this refusal appears to be a dishonest manner, have they not earned a bit more than just correction?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Not going to discuss why you think it's poorly phrased. Maybe another time.
I looked up the reasoning about fish to humans and learn that some fish do watch over their young. Not all need to. Then I figured it must be a particular kind of fish that is said to have evolved to eventually become human. Would you agree with this?
Because not only were you wrong in denying that fossils are evidence, which even if you believe that would still lead to your breaking the Ninth Commandment, but you also used this all but meaningless claim:

", this does not mean there is evolution as understood to be that from fish to humans in the long run,"

As I said, like it or not they are evidence for evolution. I can even find creationists that are honest enough to admit that. Well one creationist that I have found. He was a rarity that had an education in biology so he knew that evolution is strongly supported by the evidence. Yet he still could not follow the evidence that God would have had to have been responsible for.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Because not only were you wrong in denying that fossils are evidence, which even if you believe that would still lead to your breaking the Ninth Commandment, but you also used this all but meaningless claim:

", this does not mean there is evolution as understood to be that from fish to humans in the long run,"

As I said, like it or not they are evidence for evolution. I can even find creationists that are honest enough to admit that. Well one creationist that I have found. He was a rarity that had an education in biology so he knew that evolution is strongly supported by the evidence. Yet he still could not follow the evidence that God would have had to have been responsible for.
You keep bringing that up. Breaking the 9th commandment is serious. I know you don't believe in God, right? There is certainly nothing I would want to do to hurt you. I'll let God be the decision-maker.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You keep bringing that up. Breaking the 9th commandment is serious. I know you don't believe in God, right? There is certainly nothing I would want to do to hurt you. I'll let God be the decision-maker.
And there you go with your foolish "you don't believe in God" argument. Believing in God is not necessary to understand the Bible. But in this case that understanding came from when I was still a Christian. There are Christians that understand this Commandment better than you do. You need to read the Commandment. It does not say "Thou shall not lie". Instead it says "Thou shall not bear false witness against your neighbor". Bearing false witness against your neighbor is saying something that is untrue about him. Let's say that you saw your neighbor doing something that you misinterpreted. It could be anything. For example you might have seen your neighbor walking away from your neighbors apple tree holding an apple. If you said that you saw your neighbor with one of your neighbor's apples this might be bearing false witness. Especially if in reality he was comparing his store bought apple to your other neighbor's apples. To say that he took one of his apples would be "bearing false witness" even if you believed it. The harm of the false statement is done whether you knew it was true or not. That is why one is banned from doing so. If you say something against your neighbor you need to be more than just very sure of it. You need to be right.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
Oh jeez... It's such a complex topic that asking for a basic answer is asking a lot, imo, and I'm nowhere near educated on the topic enough myself to give a very good answer. I was raised with creation science in a religious school setting, so I'd probably know more about that than evolution. Given all that, I'll try and give as basic an answer as I can muster

The science behind evolution is similar to forensic science, and just like forensic science, is bolstered by many other fields of science that work in tandem to help paint a clearer picture of past life and it's history. Those other fielda of science include ones such as geology, astronomy, paleoclimateology, paleontology, etc etc. The evidence gathered by all of these different schools of science seem to show that, over a nearly unfathomable period of time, life seems to have slowly mutated over that time given the fossil record so consistently and predictably occurs in tandem with other events and occurances uncovered in these various other fields of science - especially paleontology and geology

Just like all other theories, evolution has to stand up to the scrutiny of the scientific community as a whole. There's a lot of incentive for those in the scientific community to bring down a theory as sound and established as evolution is, but none have been able to do so yet - it is the very best theory we have that shows what the history of life on earth looked like, and all the evidence found and continue to find only serves to strengthen it. There's really nothing to suggest that will change any time soon, either

If anyone would like to correct me or add anything else, please do!
It is not like these requests haven't been made and answered dozens of times. I'm sure it will be asked again...and again.

I would give you high marks for your summary. Nice job.
 
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