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Darwin's Illusion

leroy

Well-Known Member
And that level of detail isn't required to know that evolution has occurred
Granted, but if you whant to claim that evolution occured through the mechanism proposed by Darwin (random variation + natrual selection) you do need this level of detail

(well I guess Okmas Razor can break the draw in favor of darwinian mechanisms)

and that mutation and natural section is (one predominant) explanation of those changes.
Lets say that you need 100 mutations to go from a blind worm to a worm that can detect colors.

If each mutation is positive, then sure you can go from mutation 1 to mutation 100 though Darwinian mechanisms.

But if say mutations 5,6,7 and 8 would be useless by themselves , unless you have them all at the same time , this would be an insuperable barrier.

My claim is that there is no way of knowing if such barriers exist.



For example detecting colors would be useless, unless the organism reacts when a color is detected. …….. so if the worm gets a mutation that allows him to detect colors, NS would not select this trait………….. you would need an other additional mutation that would cause the worm to react when a color is detected , if this reaction produces a positive effect, then NS would select it.

The issue is that you need both mutations to occur at the same time.

So unless the first mutation has a benefit, you would have barrier that would be very hard to overcome,

My point is, that we don’t know…………… we have no idea , we don’t know the details no how to evovle an eye, so we can´t know if there are insuperable barriers or not.

Hmmm....can you give an example of an eyeless worm that isn't a parasite (and thereby *lost* vision as opposed to the process of gaining it)?
no, but why is it relevant


 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I meant that most of the mutations that survive and pass to the next generation have to be positive.....
Still not true. neutral mutations pass on to a later generation and may be positive in their effects. It is possible that neutral mutations can be positive at a future time. Also, combos of mutations can become positive.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Granted, but if you whant to claim that evolution occured through the mechanism proposed by Darwin (random variation + natrual selection) you do need this level of detail

(well I guess Okmas Razor can break the draw in favor of darwinian mechanisms)


Lets say that you need 100 mutations to go from a blind worm to a worm that can detect colors.

If each mutation is positive, then sure you can go from mutation 1 to mutation 100 though Darwinian mechanisms.

But if say mutations 5,6,7 and 8 would be useless by themselves , unless you have them all at the same time , this would be an insuperable barrier.

My claim is that there is no way of knowing if such barriers exist.



For example detecting colors would be useless, unless the organism reacts when a color is detected. …….. so if the worm gets a mutation that allows him to detect colors, NS would not select this trait………….. you would need an other additional mutation that would cause the worm to react when a color is detected , if this reaction produces a positive effect, then NS would select it.

The issue is that you need both mutations to occur at the same time.

So unless the first mutation has a benefit, you would have barrier that would be very hard to overcome,

My point is, that we don’t know…………… we have no idea , we don’t know the details no how to evovle an eye, so we can´t know if there are insuperable barriers or not.


no, but why is it relevant
This response is rambling, not meaningful, too hypothetical to be real, and reflects the fact that you are clueless as to how genes evolve in response to mutations and adaptations to environmental change. You consistently neglect the cause of evolution is changes in the environment or new environments that positive mutations affect change in the population and evolution.

You also neglect the fact that we are dealing with tens of thousands and more mutations in a population or populations over time.
 
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leroy

Well-Known Member
Still not true. neutral mutations pass on to a later generation and br positive. It is possible that neutral mutations can be positive at a future time. Also, combos of mutations can become positive.




This is why I said that ****most**** relevant mutations have to be positive (because I am aware of neutral mutations)

I haven’t read about this in the last 5 or so years.

But based on what I know combos of 2 neutral mutations is the most that has even been observed and only in asexual microrganisms and under controlled conditions in the lab.

Combos are very hard to obtain and are not expected to be very frequent.

But feel free to correct me
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Not really as they can be carried as genotypes but in later generations they may combine to form phenotypes.
I am open to be corrected, but as far as i know that is very very very uncommon

Is like winning the lottery twice………… sure it sometimes happens but is rare.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
This is why I said that ****most**** relevant mutations have to be positive (because I am aware of neutral mutations)

I haven’t read about this in the last 5 or so years.

But based on what I know combos of 2 neutral mutations is the most that has even been observed and only in asexual microrganisms and under controlled conditions in the lab.

Combos are very hard to obtain and are not expected to be very frequent.

But feel free to correct me
And you cannot justify your "most" claim. There is no need for most. That is your strawman. You would need to support that with more than mere hand waving.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Granted, but if you whant to claim that evolution occured through the mechanism proposed by Darwin (random variation + natrual selection) you do need this level of detail

(well I guess Okmas Razor can break the draw in favor of darwinian mechanisms)


Lets say that you need 100 mutations to go from a blind worm to a worm that can detect colors.

If each mutation is positive, then sure you can go from mutation 1 to mutation 100 though Darwinian mechanisms.

But if say mutations 5,6,7 and 8 would be useless by themselves , unless you have them all at the same time , this would be an insuperable barrier.

My claim is that there is no way of knowing if such barriers exist.
From actual studies of how mutations affect populations, this would not be such an insuperable barrier. Remember that MOST mutations are neutral and so would be kept. This just increases the diversity in the population. Once a breakthrough is encountered, the population will shift fairly rapidly to a new equilibrium including the mutually beneficial mutations.

We have seen exactly this sort of thing with antibody resistance in bacteria:
For example detecting colors would be useless, unless the organism reacts when a color is detected. …….. so if the worm gets a mutation that allows him to detect colors, NS would not select this trait………….. you would need an other additional mutation that would cause the worm to react when a color is detected , if this reaction produces a positive effect, then NS would select it.
You assume that the detection system (a nervous system reacting to a sensory organ) wasn't there to begin with. If the color sensitivity was a tweak to the already existing system, no difficulties would be found.

Usually, evolution occurs by small changes in existing systems, not in large changes in new systems. So we don't expect to go from eyeless to having eyes in just a few generations.
The issue is that you need both mutations to occur at the same time.
No, you do not.
So unless the first mutation has a benefit, you would have barrier that would be very hard to overcome,
But you assume the first mutation is for color vision. If, instead, it is for a sensory system that can be co-opted for vision later, it is sufficient.
My point is, that we don’t know…………… we have no idea , we don’t know the details no how to evovle an eye, so we can´t know if there are insuperable barriers or not.
Not entirely true. We do, in fact, know many of the macroscopic changes that are required. And we actually see those stages in existing organisms.
no, but why is it relevant
You seem to think that going from eyeless to having eyes was a short thing with high barriers even though we know of stages and even see them in existing animals.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
And you cannot justify your "most" claim. There is no need for most. That is your strawman. You would need to support that with more than mere hand waving.
That is what evolution by natural selection claims, if you think that most relevant mutations are neutral, then you have a different theory
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
From actual studies of how mutations affect populations, this would not be such an insuperable barrier. Remember that MOST mutations are neutral and so would be kept. This just increases the diversity in the population. Once a breakthrough is encountered, the population will shift fairly rapidly to a new equilibrium including the mutually beneficial mutations.

We have seen exactly this sort of thing with antibody resistance in bacteria:

Mutually beneficial mutations are rare, they have only been observed in asexual microscopic organism and under laboratory conditions. (the problem with sexual reproduction is that neutral mutations are less likely to be kept than in asexual organisms)

And as far as I know 2 mutations is the limit, 3 mutually beneficial mutations have never been observed (no even in bacteria)

We never have

Mutation A neutral

Mutation B neutral

Mutuation c neutral.

But the combination of A B and C is positive.

This has never been observed. Three mutually beneficial mutations have never been observed……… sure you have billions of years and perhaps it has happened one or two times, but this mechanism can´t be a major contributor for the evolution of the eye, or any other complex system

But you assume the first mutation is for color vision. If, instead, it is for a sensory system that can be co-opted for vision later, it is sufficient.
And you are assuming that series of steps is even possible. (that there is a viable path)

That is my point, since we don’t understand modern eyes nor primitive eyes at a genetic level, we can´t say anything on weather if there is a viable path or not
Not entirely true. We do, in fact, know many of the macroscopic changes that are required. And we actually see those stages in existing organisms.You seem to think that going from eyeless to having eyes was a short thing with high barriers even though we know of stages and even see them in existing animals.
I tried to simplified things.

The point is that you can´t explain the genetic steps of any of the stages.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Not that I have ever seen. I doubt if you can find a source that says this
It´s trivially true, (it is almost a tautology)

If NS is the driving force, then most *relevant* mutations can´t be neutral

If you claim that sight evolved mainly through neutral mutations, then NS by definition didn’t play a major role. And therefore you can´t call it “evolution by natural selection”
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
This is why I said that ****most**** relevant mutations have to be positive (because I am aware of neutral mutations).

No most mutations are not necessarily positive.
I haven’t read about this in the last 5 or so years.

But based on what I know combos of 2 neutral mutations is the most that have ever been observed and only in asexual microorganisms and under controlled conditions in the lab.

Not remotely true. Considering your very limited knowledge of the sciences of evolution it is understandable that you are very limited on what you know.

To define as per population genetics, neutral mutations are the mutations whose spread remains unaffected by the process of natural selection. In other words, fixation of the neutral mutations is independent of natural selection. Since these mutations can escape the process of natural selection, these mutations accumulate and add to the variations in the genetic pool or the genetic drift. Genealogies or phylogenies are built or marked based on these neutral mutations.

Lifetime reproductive success, fecundity, longevity, viability, etc., are some of the life-history traits that determine the fitness of the genotype. Genetic alteration in these traits critically determines the adaptability of an organism to its new environment. Accordingly, mutation can be deemed beneficial or harmful, and this also forms the basis of survival of the fittest.

Beneficial mutations are transferred to the next progeny as they become essential for survival. However, besides these harmful and beneficial mutations, there are a number of mutations that contribute to the variations in the genetic makeup of individuals. However, they have no phenotypic expression of these changes and do not alter the ability to survive and reproduce. Thus these mutations have been termed neutral mutations. Interestingly, most mutations are neutral mutations. Neutral mutations also form the basis of the neutral theory of molecular evolution and the molecular clock.


Combos are very hard to obtain and are not expected to be very frequent.

But feel free to correct me

So far you have been rambling incorrectly without references or a specific meaningful argument.



The fitness effects of synonymous mutations, nucleotide changes that do not alter the encoded amino acid, have often been assumed to be neutral, but a growing body of evidence suggests otherwise. We used site-directed mutagenesis coupled with direct measures of competitive fitness to estimate the distribution of fitness effects among synonymous mutations for a gene under directional selection and capable of adapting via synonymous nucleotide changes. Synonymous mutations had highly variable fitness effects, both deleterious and beneficial, resembling those of nonsynonymous mutations in the same gene. This variation in fitness was underlain by changes in transcription linked to the creation of internal promoter sites. A positive correlation between fitness and the presence of synonymous substitutions across a phylogeny of related Pseudomonads suggests these mutations may be common in nature. Taken together, our results provide the most compelling evidence to date that synonymous mutations with non-neutral fitness effects may in fact be commonplace.
 
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leroy

Well-Known Member
No most mutations are not necessarily positive.
reeeeeeeeed the complete sentence, I said most RELEVANT mutations have to be possitive, this is true by definition, otherwise it wouldnt be the thepry of evolution by natrual selection


Not remotely true.
Then one wonders, why did you quote a random and unrelated article instead of an article that refutes my claim?

Just to keep trak you have to give me a combo of 3 neutral mutations in organisms that reproduce sexually, such that the combination of these 3 mutations is beneficial but 1 or 2 mutations by themselves are neutral
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
It´s trivially true, (it is almost a tautology)

If NS is the driving force, then most *relevant* mutations can´t be neutral

If you claim that sight evolved mainly through neutral mutations, then NS by definition didn’t play a major role. And therefore you can´t call it “evolution by natural selection”
No, not even close. That is only your misinterpretation at best.

And no, your strawman about how sight evolved is incorrect.

Support your claim properly, or admit that you are wrong. Then you can ask questions.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
reeeeeeeeed the complete sentence, I said most RELEVANT mutations have to be possitive, this is true by definition, otherwise it wouldnt be the thepry of evolution by natrual selection



Then one wonders, why did you quote a random and unrelated article instead of an article that refutes my claim?

Just to keep trak you have to give me a combo of 3 neutral mutations in organisms that reproduce sexually, such that the combination of these 3 mutations is beneficial but 1 or 2 mutations by themselves are neutral
Why? You keep claiming this but cannot support it. I have never seen a scientist make this claim so I have no idea where you think that they did.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
No, not even close. That is only your misinterpretation at best.

And no, your strawman about how sight evolved is incorrect.

Support your claim properly, or admit that you are wrong. Then you can ask questions.
Exactly what claim am I supposed to support?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Why? You keep claiming this but cannot support it. I have never seen a scientist make this claim so I have no idea where you think that they did.
Why? Because by definition natural selection can only act upon beneficial (or negative) mutations

Neutral mutations by definition are invisible for natural selection……………… that is literally the definition of “neutral” in this context.

Do I really have to support this?
 
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