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Darwin's Illusion

leroy

Well-Known Member
To you or me? The video covers more about Behe than the article. I consider the extra meaningful.
I saw the first 50 minutes and IC was note even addressed, are you sure you quoted the correct video?

Behe's claim was that if you remove any part of a five-piece standard mousetrap that it no longer has a function.

Yes and as the author of the article implicitly admitted, Behe is correct.

If you remove one part of the mousetrap the devise would no longer work, unless you modify all the other parts too. (many things have to happen at the same time)

Some might say that it should say that by removing any piece that it is no longer a mousetrap, but that wouldn't be analogous to the claim with evolution, which is that a change must make an organism more fecund in order to be naturally selected for, not that a change must make an organism more fecund in the same way. Thus, the precursor to the flagellum might not have been related to propulsion at all, but perhaps to injecting toxins in self-defense.
sure,

That is not his claim or his point. See above.
I´ll take that as an admission that you agree with my main point

“ you can´t go from a 3 part mousetrap to a 4 part mouse trap in a single step, (many things have to happen at the same time)

And yes that is Behe´s point

This is a quote form Behe

“An irreducibly complex evolutionary pathway is one that contains one or more unselected steps (that is, one or more necessary-but-unselected mutations). The degree of irreducible complexity is the number of unselected steps in the pathway.”

In Defense of the Irreducibility of the Blood Clotting Cascade

the mouse trap has unselectable steps. (which is Behes point) adding a hammer to a 3 part mousetrap would be useless (or likely harmful) unless you move and change the other parts, but changing the parts would also be harmful unless you have the hammer _(everything has to occure at the same time)
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Because sexual reproduction tends to filter neutral mutations, (bacteria don’t have this problem)

If you have a neutral mutation, only a small portion of your offspring will inherit that mutation, and only a small portion of their offspring will have that mutation etc.



In most of the cases You can´t wait 50,000 generations for the combo to occur (as it occurred with bacteria in that experiment)


Nobody is claiming that it woulnd occur, just that it is not very common.


Even ignoring the fact that bacteria are asexual, if I understood the experiment, you have only gotten 1 combo in 50,000 generations . So that proves my point. (this mechanism is not a main driving force for evolution)
Your black and white strawmanning, never ceases to amaze me.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Ok I´ll give you the befit of the doubt and assume that most mutations are like that

So my original claim was

1 you have to provide a path where most mutations are positive, that explains how a blind creature evolved an eye

I will change it for

2 you have to provide a path of any viable combination of neutral and positive mutations that explains how a blind creature evolved an eye

If that path is not shown then nobody can claim (nor deny) irreducible complexity

That's retarded and has already been addressed with the simple analogy of someone who drives a car from east coast to west coast USA.
You do NOT have to know the "exact route" taken to know said person drove his car from east coast to west coast.


But as usual, you completely ignored that and just doubled down on your falsehoods.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Here's how I figure: there is a God.

And from that point on, your reasoning is fallacious as it is all based on an unjustified assumption.
And you then use that assumption to support said assumptions.
This is called circular reasoning from an assumed conclusion.

He is incomprehensible by human scientific reasoning with one exception in my mind: He is the Creator. I do not understand what nothing means except to say that it is devoid of matter. But that really isn't the answer because exactly how the universe is expanding is beyond my understanding since where is it expanding to? I don't really like all these philosophical questions and I was born without comprehension so I was not 'there' anywhere before I was born. I'm pretty sure of that. I say that jokingly because I know some believe we were somewhere (heaven perhaps?) before we were born. I do not believe that and to me that is common sense also relating to "science," such as reproduction. And I didn't start to think or put things together for a long enough after I was born. My mother taught me how to eat with a spoon, etc. I did not teach myself how to speak, read or write.
About irreducible complexity, I think it's a term that I may not use anymore, but I may. I'll do some research about that. Although it seems logical enough. Because -- "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." I'm sure you know that phrase. What was there before that? God. I know because it makes sense. Based on yes, what the Bible AND science (space) says. How long was God around? Without beginning. Is that comprehensible to our human minds? (No, not as far as I'm concerned.) Yes -- the Bible as I understand it now makes sense. It's not a scientific textbook. Later for more, maybe.
bla di bla di bla
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
That's retarded and has already been addressed with the simple analogy of someone who drives a car from east coast to west coast USA.
You do NOT have to know the "exact route" taken to know said person drove his car from east coast to west coast.


But as usual, you completely ignored that and just doubled down on your falsehoods.
Strawman

What I said is that you need to know the exact steps in order to affirm (or deny) IC……….. my point is that it is impossible to do that
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member

No.

What I said is that you need to know the exact steps in order to affirm (or deny) IC……….. my point is that it is impossible to do that
That's because IC is nothing but an argument from ignorance.
We've been over this before.

And the analogy is not a strawman. It's right on the money. We don't need to know the exact step by step mutation pathway to know a certain feature is the result of evolution.

Your "objection" is akin to saying that unless you can demonstrate the exact route taken by the driver, then you can't affirm or deny that he didn't just teleport from east to west and tinkered with the mileage meter just to make it look as if he drove.

It's asanine bs.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Added to the list of unsupported accusations.

Luckily the list is hypothetical; otherwise I would have to buy a supercomputer just to store every unsuported claim
When you are done with the unproductive high-school level thrash talking and are ready to have an adult conversation, just call.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Classic argument from ignorance.
What argument? What are you talking about? I am not making any controversial arguments…………all I am saying is that we can´t know yet if any system is IC or not.

Borrowing form the analogy, we don’t know if you can drive from LA to New York because we dong know if there is an obstacle like a river, that would make the trip impossible.

Obviously such an obstacle doesn’t mean that you can´t get form LA to New York City, it simply means that you can get there by the proposed mechanism (a car and just a car)

These are my 4 claims that I have made in this thread, please tell me if you disagree any of them

1 I accept evolution (common ancestry)

2 I accept that complex organs came from simpler organs

3 I don’t I am skeptical on the claim that organisms evolve mainly though random variation + natural selection (

4 I don’t think we can know if a system like the eye or the flagellum is IC
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I saw the first 50 minutes and IC was note even addressed, are you sure you quoted the correct video?



Yes and as the author of the article implicitly admitted, Behe is correct.

If you remove one part of the mousetrap the devise would no longer work, unless you modify all the other parts too. (many things have to happen at the same time)


sure,


I´ll take that as an admission that you agree with my main point

“ you can´t go from a 3 part mousetrap to a 4 part mouse trap in a single step, (many things have to happen at the same time)

And yes that is Behe´s point

This is a quote form Behe

“An irreducibly complex evolutionary pathway is one that contains one or more unselected steps (that is, one or more necessary-but-unselected mutations). The degree of irreducible complexity is the number of unselected steps in the pathway.”

In Defense of the Irreducibility of the Blood Clotting Cascade

the mouse trap has unselectable steps. (which is Behes point) adding a hammer to a 3 part mousetrap would be useless (or likely harmful) unless you move and change the other parts, but changing the parts would also be harmful unless you have the hammer _(everything has to occure at the same time)
You have not responded to post #8,452
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Added to the list of unsupported accusations.

Luckily the list is hypothetical; otherwise I would have to buy a supercomputer just to store every unsuported claim
And yet I explained how it w as supported. Oh my. Do you seriously try to fail this badly? Do you think that when you show that you were to lazy to read the thread that makes you some sort of martyr? If you ignore the corrections given to you you let off everyone else from proving anything. This is why you are on corrections only. When you can demonstrate just a little bit of honesty things will begin to change.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
You have not responded to post #8,452
You are supposed to tag @It Aint Necessarily So not me, he (his source) is the one who is using the mousetrap analogy



I wont reed the paper, if you think that any claim made in that paper contradicts any of my claims, then quote both my claim and the portion of the paper that refutes my claim........... my hypotheiss is that there is nothign in the paper that contradicts any of my claims
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
And yet I explained how it w as supported. Oh my. Do you seriously try to fail this badly? Do you think that when you show that you were to lazy to read the thread that makes you some sort of martyr? If you ignore the corrections given to you you let off everyone else from proving anything. This is why you are on corrections only. When you can demonstrate just a little bit of honesty things will begin to change.
you are making this up.

Quote my actual claim

And the quote the alleged correction

You wont find it
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I saw the first 50 minutes and IC was note even addressed, are you sure you quoted the correct video?
You watched the irrelevant (to this discussion) part of the video. Did you not see this? "You can start about 37 minutes into it if you want to skip much of the Dover school board antics that led up to the lawsuit and get to the trial, the testimony of ID people and the prosecution's experts, and the judge's ruling."

You pay a price for your inattention. Go back to video and begin where you left off.

Or, try this written transcript of the video: NOVA | Transcripts | Judgment Day: Intelligent Design on Trial | PBS If you go that route - text rather than speech and video - please be thorough and attentive. You will find this there. It's in the video as well, probably past the point where you ended watching it:

KENNETH R. MILLER:

As an example of what irreducible complexity means, advocates of intelligent design like to point to a very common machine: the mousetrap. And the mousetrap is composed of five parts. It has a base plate, the catch, a spring, a little hammer that actually does the dirty work, and a bait holder.​
The mousetrap will not work if any one of these five parts are taken away. That's absolutely true. But remember the key notion of irreducible complexity, and that is that this whole machine is completely useless until all the parts are in place. Well, that, that turns out not to be true.​
And I'll give you an example. What I have right here is a mousetrap from which I've removed two of the five parts. I still have the base plate, the spring, and the hammer. Now you can't catch any mice with this, so it's not a very good mousetrap. But it turns out that, despite the missing parts, it makes a perfectly good, if somewhat inelegant, tie clip.​
And when we look at the favorite examples for irreducible complexity, and the bacterial flagellum is a perfect example, we find the molecular equivalent of my tie clip, which is we see parts of the machine missing—two, three, four, maybe even 20—parts, but still fulfilling a perfectly good purpose that could be favored by evolution. And that's why the irreducible complexity argument falls apart.​

Yes and as the author of the article implicitly admitted, Behe is correct.
Implicitly? As in an idea that you ferreted out from the text? Forgive my skepticism. Your track record with reading comprehension isn't an endorsement for it.

The article showed a series of simpler mousetraps as the device went from 5 to 4 to 3 to 2 to 1 part

Disagree that Behe was correct, but you didn't specify in exactly which way, so I'm assuming you mean the claim that a mousetrap has no use missing one of its parts. Behe's claim was also falsified by Miller, but by using simpler mouse traps for another purpose such as a tie clip.
If you remove one part of the mousetrap the devise would no longer work, unless you modify all the other parts too. (many things have to happen at the same time)
The article contradicts that. No new parts were added. Some older parts changed configuration, which is also the case with biological systems when a piece is removed or modified. The conformation of proteins, for example, is sensitive to their milieu. Remove one protein and the others conformation and functionality might change. Here's some biochemistry for you:

"This overview provides an illustrated, comprehensive survey of some commonly observed protein‐fold families and structural motifs, chosen for their functional significance. It opens with descriptions and definitions of the various elements of protein structure and associated terminology."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7162418/#:~:text=The complete structure of a,, tertiary, and quaternary structure.
I´ll take that as an admission that you agree with my main point

“ you can´t go from a 3 part mousetrap to a 4 part mouse trap in a single step, (many things have to happen at the same time)
If that's your main point, it's irrelevant to a biological system. How the mousetrap increases in complexity is unrelated to natural genetic variation.

I think you're misunderstanding the significance of the mousetrap. Your statement is irrelevant. It doesn't evolve by natural selection of a biological genotype/phenotype, and nobody claims that it did. It is merely a means of illustrating that when parts are removed, functionality is lost whether a system is biological or manmade.
the mouse trap has unselectable steps.
Unselectable? The steps were selected by its builder, which is also irrelevant to a discussion of biological evolution.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
You are supposed to tag @It Aint Necessarily So not me, he (his source) is the one who is using the mousetrap analogy



I wont reed the paper, if you think that any claim made in that paper contradicts any of my claims, then quote both my claim and the portion of the paper that refutes my claim........... my hypotheiss is that there is nothign in the paper that contradicts any of my claims
You need to respond to the substance of the post it is addressed to you and your defense of Behe's claim.

What part of the paper supports your claim? The paper I cited explicitly rejects Behe's claims.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
We're talking about the concept of irreducible complexities and the lack of proof or proof for that. If you can't grasp the concept then you won't be able to understand more than that. Sorry but have a nice day. And trust me when I say this; you have really helped me understand more. It is not an easy concept. So take care.
We all know what it means. Well, perhaps except for you.. I'm not sure you know what it means
You watched the irrelevant (to this discussion) part of the video. Did you not see this? "You can start about 37 minutes into it if you want to skip much of the Dover school board antics that led up to the lawsuit and get to the trial, the testimony of ID people and the prosecution's experts, and the judge's ruling."

You pay a price for your inattention. Go back to video and begin where you left off.

Or, try this written transcript of the video: NOVA | Transcripts | Judgment Day: Intelligent Design on Trial | PBS If you go that route - text rather than speech and video - please be thorough and attentive. You will find this there. It's in the video as well, probably past the point where you ended watching it:

KENNETH R. MILLER:

As an example of what irreducible complexity means, advocates of intelligent design like to point to a very common machine: the mousetrap. And the mousetrap is composed of five parts. It has a base plate, the catch, a spring, a little hammer that actually does the dirty work, and a bait holder.​
The mousetrap will not work if any one of these five parts are taken away. That's absolutely true. But remember the key notion of irreducible complexity, and that is that this whole machine is completely useless until all the parts are in place. Well, that, that turns out not to be true.
And I'll give you an example. What I have right here is a mousetrap from which I've removed two of the five parts. I still have the base plate, the spring, and the hammer. Now you can't catch any mice with this, so it's not a very good mousetrap. But it turns out that, despite the missing parts, it makes a perfectly good, if somewhat inelegant, tie clip.
And when we look at the favorite examples for irreducible complexity, and the bacterial flagellum is a perfect example, we find the molecular equivalent of my tie clip, which is we see parts of the machine missing—two, three, four, maybe even 20—parts, but still fulfilling a perfectly good purpose that could be favored by evolution. And that's why the irreducible complexity argument falls apart.


Implicitly? As in an idea that you ferreted out from the text? Forgive my skepticism. Your track record with reading comprehension isn't an endorsement for it.

The article showed a series of simpler mousetraps as the device went from 5 to 4 to 3 to 2 to 1 part

Disagree that Behe was correct, but you didn't specify in exactly which way, so I'm assuming you mean the claim that a mousetrap has no use missing one of its parts. Behe's claim was also falsified by Miller, but by using simpler mouse traps for another purpose such as a tie clip.

The article contradicts that. No new parts were added. Some older parts changed configuration, which is also the case with biological systems when a piece is removed or modified. The conformation of proteins, for example, is sensitive to their milieu. Remove one protein and the others conformation and functionality might change. Here's some biochemistry for you:

"This overview provides an illustrated, comprehensive survey of some commonly observed protein‐fold families and structural motifs, chosen for their functional significance. It opens with descriptions and definitions of the various elements of protein structure and associated terminology."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7162418/#:~:text=The complete structure of a,, tertiary, and quaternary structure.

If that's your main point, it's irrelevant to a biological system. How the mousetrap increases in complexity is unrelated to natural genetic variation.

I think you're misunderstanding the significance of the mousetrap. Your statement is irrelevant. It doesn't evolve by natural selection of a biological genotype/phenotype, and nobody claims that it did. It is merely a means of illustrating that when parts are removed, functionality is lost whether a system is biological or manmade.

Unselectable? The steps were selected by its builder, which is also irrelevant to a discussion of biological evolution.
I came here to point out the part in bold. And of course, you've already done an amazing job of it. :)
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You watched the irrelevant (to this discussion) part of the video. Did you not see this? "You can start about 37 minutes into it if you want to skip much of the Dover school board antics that led up to the lawsuit and get to the trial, the testimony of ID people and the prosecution's experts, and the judge's ruling."

You pay a price for your inattention. Go back to video and begin where you left off.

Or, try this written transcript of the video: NOVA | Transcripts | Judgment Day: Intelligent Design on Trial | PBS If you go that route - text rather than speech and video - please be thorough and attentive. You will find this there. It's in the video as well, probably past the point where you ended watching it:

KENNETH R. MILLER:

As an example of what irreducible complexity means, advocates of intelligent design like to point to a very common machine: the mousetrap. And the mousetrap is composed of five parts. It has a base plate, the catch, a spring, a little hammer that actually does the dirty work, and a bait holder.​
The mousetrap will not work if any one of these five parts are taken away. That's absolutely true. But remember the key notion of irreducible complexity, and that is that this whole machine is completely useless until all the parts are in place. Well, that, that turns out not to be true.​
And I'll give you an example. What I have right here is a mousetrap from which I've removed two of the five parts. I still have the base plate, the spring, and the hammer. Now you can't catch any mice with this, so it's not a very good mousetrap. But it turns out that, despite the missing parts, it makes a perfectly good, if somewhat inelegant, tie clip.​
And when we look at the favorite examples for irreducible complexity, and the bacterial flagellum is a perfect example, we find the molecular equivalent of my tie clip, which is we see parts of the machine missing—two, three, four, maybe even 20—parts, but still fulfilling a perfectly good purpose that could be favored by evolution. And that's why the irreducible complexity argument falls apart.​


Implicitly? As in an idea that you ferreted out from the text? Forgive my skepticism. Your track record with reading comprehension isn't an endorsement for it.

The article showed a series of simpler mousetraps as the device went from 5 to 4 to 3 to 2 to 1 part

Disagree that Behe was correct, but you didn't specify in exactly which way, so I'm assuming you mean the claim that a mousetrap has no use missing one of its parts. Behe's claim was also falsified by Miller, but by using simpler mouse traps for another purpose such as a tie clip.

The article contradicts that. No new parts were added. Some older parts changed configuration, which is also the case with biological systems when a piece is removed or modified. The conformation of proteins, for example, is sensitive to their milieu. Remove one protein and the others conformation and functionality might change. Here's some biochemistry for you:

"This overview provides an illustrated, comprehensive survey of some commonly observed protein‐fold families and structural motifs, chosen for their functional significance. It opens with descriptions and definitions of the various elements of protein structure and associated terminology."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7162418/#:~:text=The complete structure of a,, tertiary, and quaternary structure.

If that's your main point, it's irrelevant to a biological system. How the mousetrap increases in complexity is unrelated to natural genetic variation.

I think you're misunderstanding the significance of the mousetrap. Your statement is irrelevant. It doesn't evolve by natural selection of a biological genotype/phenotype, and nobody claims that it did. It is merely a means of illustrating that when parts are removed, functionality is lost whether a system is biological or manmade.

Unselectable? The steps were selected by its builder, which is also irrelevant to a discussion of biological evolution.
Just looking at this and anyway wonder what "intelligent design" means. In the long and short run. Unless you can define what is meant by intelligent design there is no point to talk (or think more than wondering) about it.
 
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