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Darwin's Illusion

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Wow. :oops:

The presences of organic matters that you mentioned in some meteorites, and some experiments that you yourself mentioned (eg the Miller-Urey experiment where some inorganic molecules reacted into organic compounds (eg amino acids in the M-U experiment), and you are still demanding for “empirical and verifiable evidence”!

how dumb is that demand. :facepalm:

those were some of the evidence, @Kenny .

Clearly you don’t know what “evidence” means, and you don’t know what it mean by “empirical” and “verifiable”.

Evidence are physical objects that can be OBSERVED, Kenny.

And from those observations, you can acquire a number of “information” about the evidence. These information are what we called DATA. And data are parts of evidence and part of the observations.

Just look at Miller-Urey experiments as an example of physical evidence.

They started with 4 physical evidence - the inorganic chemicals: hydrogen (H2), water (H2O), ammonia (NH3) & methane (CH4).​
The electrodes are used, to cause electricity to start chemical reaction. Other method of starting chemical reaction is applying heat to the chemicals, but in this experiment, they used both heat and electricity.​
There are actually over 500 different types of amino acids. But using these 4 inorganic chemicals, Miller and Urey didn’t just make only 1 type of amino acid, the chemical reaction resulted in identifying 9 types of amino acids, back in 1952. That’s 9 evidence, not 1.​
The chemicals were stored away in sealed vials until Stanley Miller passed away. When vials were examined in 2007, another 11 types of amino acids on top of the original 9 of 1952, hence 20 evidence that inorganic molecules can chemically alter into organic compounds.​
The reasons why amino acids are important, because we know that amino acids are the building blocks of proteins. Of the 500 different types of amino acids, only 22 types are naturally occurring in proteins and the only ones that appear in genetic coding of all life.​

The word “empirical” means have “multiple” evidence.

Having empirical evidence is important to physical & natural sciences, because it allows for comparisons between one evidence against the other evidence. The comparisons and tests will show if they have the “same”, “similar” or “different” properties.

Because you have 20 identified types of amino acids, you therefore have 20 empirical evidence.

But you can also Miller-Urey test results against experiments by other scientists using different inorganic chemicals.

As the Earth early atmosphere would have no free oxygen, but plenty of nitrogen and carbon dioxide, plus the frequencies of volcanic activities would have expelled other gases in the atmosphere, like sulfur dioxide (SO2) and hydrogen sulfide (H2S), these produce even more types of amino acids.

Joan Oró did his experimen in 1961, using water, ammonia and hydrogen cyanide (HCN). It not only produced amino acids, but also one of the 5 nitrogenous bases found nucleotide of DNA & of RNA - adenine.

So multiple different types of experiments were capable of producing amino acids. And 22 of those amino acids are capable of being chained together to form different types of protein molecules.

Proteins are essential, as they are found in every different types of cells, and many of the tissues are mainly made of proteins, eg muscles, connective tissues, skins, organs, nerve tissues, etc. Proteins can also be found in enzymes, important chemical that accelerate chemical reaction, such as those in metabolism.

Anyway, these experiments verified the importance of amino acids as organic compounds that are building blocks of proteins. And as proteins are found in every cells, proteins are one of 4 essential biological macromolecules. Those other essential molecules are nucleic acids (eg RNA, DNA), carbohydrates, & lipids.
Again... these are very controlled experiments which isn't realistic in the natural world. And then you have the issue of it going from amino acids to producing life from that point... verifiable and empirical.

My point is simple... there are a LOT of assumptions going on here and that is why they say "possible", "maybe", "potentially" et al. if it was "definitely", those other adjectives would not be used.

After they make these faith assumptions and begin building on those faith assumptions with additional faith assumptions until they start talking like it is all verifiable and go from there to what is verifiable and empirical.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
You cannot have socalled evolution without abiogenesis.

False. Like so many other things, this has been explained to you countless times.
But like all those other things, you just ignore it and double down on your already exposed mistakes.

But it's interesting to see truth deniers continue to refuse to see and admit the truth.

Says the person that insists on being wrong even after countless people corrected your mistakes countless times.

Evolution is not possible without abiogenesis.

False.
Instead: evolution is not possible without life as we know it existing. Period. It does not matter how life came about. Abiogenesis, your god, some other god, alien bio-engineers, what-have-you...

Evolution has only one pre-requisite: life that imperfectly replicates must exist. How that life exists is irrelevant to evolution.

Guesswork about the first items starting socalled evolution and more guesswork about how it started. Thank you.
Again, irrelevant.
For the sake of the argument, I'll happily say that it is 110% unknown how it started (it isn't though).
It makes no difference. Evolution only requires life that imperfectly replicates to exist. That is all.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
WOW - that's the best you can do?

It's the only thing he can do when met with such willful ignorance and intellectual dishonesty.

Btw: I also find it hilarious that your point "against" him, regardless of it being a strawman, is that he has "religious faith". As if you recognize it as a bad thing and not a pathway to truth. Interesting, that....

I might as well believe in your Spaghetti Monster or Unicorn since you can't offer empirical and verifiable evidence - Science 101 - Did you take science in High School?
Please.

You wouldn't recognize empirical verifiable evidence if it came up and hit you upside the head.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Again... these are very controlled experiments which isn't realistic in the natural world.

All experiments happen in controlled conditions. This is not an argument.
The point is that these experiments demonstrate that there ARE pathways for these organic molecules to synthesis happily through mere chemistry without any need for any agent "tinkering".

If you don't understand that, then you are missing the point of any and all experiments.

Controlled conditions are a very common way to isolate certain processes from any other interference so it becomes easier and possible to focus on specific aspects.

A freezer for example is also a controlled environment. Does that make ice "unnatural"?

My point is simple... there are a LOT of assumptions going on here and that is why they say "possible", "maybe", "potentially" et al. if it was "definitely", those other adjectives would not be used.

It's called intellectual honest. Every scientific paper uses such language.
If you consider that a reason to reject it, then you will have to reject all of science.

After they make these faith assumptions

You confuse intellectual honesty (ie: NOT use terms that imply absolute certainty) with "guessing without evidence" or "faith".


and begin building on those faith assumptions with additional faith assumptions until they start talking like it is all verifiable and go from there to what is verifiable and empirical.
What you read in science papers IS verifiable.
Experiments can be re-run. Data can be re-examined. Results can be reproduced.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
All experiments happen in controlled conditions. This is not an argument.
The point is that these experiments demonstrate that there ARE pathways for these organic molecules to synthesis happily through mere chemistry without any need for any agent "tinkering".

If you don't understand that, then you are missing the point of any and all experiments.

Controlled conditions are a very common way to isolate certain processes from any other interference so it becomes easier and possible to focus on specific aspects.

A freezer for example is also a controlled environment. Does that make ice "unnatural"?



It's called intellectual honest. Every scientific paper uses such language.
If you consider that a reason to reject it, then you will have to reject all of science.



You confuse intellectual honesty (ie: NOT use terms that imply absolute certainty) with "guessing without evidence" or "faith".



What you read in science papers IS verifiable.
Experiments can be re-run. Data can be re-examined. Results can be reproduced.
You are absolutely correct...


Since we can produce hydrogen fuel and oxygen from water, in a very controlled situation, we know that at the beginning of creation that it is probable and possible that it was this method that we got hydrogen and oxygen in our world.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Through Intelligent Design.
No. Just natural chemistry, as shown in an endless string of experiments, starting with the Miller-Urey experiment.

No "intelligent design" going on there. No agents putting the atoms together to form said molecules.

Just a bunch of materials in an environment. A chemical reaction naturally follows, resulting in amino acids.

I'm so sorry that you seem so dense that you can't bring yourself to think rationally about this.

To say that those amino acids are "intelligently designed" is on par with saying that the ice in the freezer is also "intelligently designed".
It's beyond ridiculous as an argument against it.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
It's the only thing he can do when met with such willful ignorance and intellectual dishonesty.

Btw: I also find it hilarious that your point "against" him, regardless of it being a strawman, is that he has "religious faith". As if you recognize it as a bad thing and not a pathway to truth. Interesting, that....


Please.

You wouldn't recognize empirical verifiable evidence if it came up and hit you upside the head.
This thread has provided a lot of empirical
evidence re the dim intellect characteristic
of yecs.

Studies of cause and effect are ongoing.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
This thread has provided a lot of empirical
evidence re the dim intellect characteristic
of yecs.

Studies of cause and effect are ongoing.
LOL... I'm not a yec. So much for your scientific expertise.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
No. Just natural chemistry, as shown in an endless string of experiments, starting with the Miller-Urey experiment.

No "intelligent design" going on there. No agents putting the atoms together to form said molecules.

Just a bunch of materials in an environment. A chemical reaction naturally follows, resulting in amino acids.

I'm so sorry that you seem so dense that you can't bring yourself to think rationally about this.

To say that those amino acids are "intelligently designed" is on par with saying that the ice in the freezer is also "intelligently designed".
It's beyond ridiculous as an argument against it.
Beam me up Scotty.

Incidentally, the ice in the freezer IS there because of intelligent design.

OH SNAP! :D
 

Audie

Veteran Member
LOL... I'm not a yec. So much for your scientific expertise.
That's what they all say.
Distinctions sans diffrrence.

Regardless, the comment includes
but is not limited to yecs.

The disjointed "so much for" quip indicates a
similar level of infliction.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
That's what they all say.
Distinctions sans diffrrence.

Regardless, the comment includes
but is not limited to yecs.

The disjointed "so much for" quip indicates a
similar level of infliction.
Nice goal post move. ;)
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
WOW - that's the best you can do? I might as well believe in your Spaghetti Monster or Unicorn since you can't offer empirical and verifiable evidence - Science 101 - Did you take science in High School?
It is all that is needed.

And I can offer evidence. But there is no point in giving it to someone that just went out of his way making dishonest statements.


You do not seem to understand or follow the basic rules of debate and discussion. To demand or even to ask for evidence that one has to be an honest interlocutor. You failed at doing that. And you insulted your own beliefs in the process demonstrating both a lack of integrity and incompetence simultaneously.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Beam me up Scotty.

Incidentally, the ice in the freezer IS there because of intelligent design.

OH SNAP! :D
It is not and you just demonstrated again how you are unable to think rationally.

The ice in the freezer is there because of the cold environment in the freezer.
The freezer is intelligently designed. The ice is not.

"oh snap"

For real dude...................................................................

You shoot yourself in the foot every post.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
You are absolutely correct...


Since we can produce hydrogen fuel and oxygen from water, in a very controlled situation, we know that at the beginning of creation that it is probable and possible that it was this method that we got hydrogen and oxygen in our world.
Once again you demonstrate that you are unable to follow a simple thought process.

Once again you demonstrate that you (deliberatly?) didn't understand a single point in the post you are replying to.

I don't even know what else to say to this drivel you just posted.

What are you doing discussion anything science related if you even have so much problems comprehending what "controlled conditions" are in any and all experiments?

I mean, seriously..........

Baffling. I'm at a loss for words.

Either your brain works in extremely mysterious ways or you are a master troller.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
It is not and you just demonstrated again how you are unable to think rationally.

The ice in the freezer is there because of the cold environment in the freezer.
The freezer is intelligently designed. The ice is not.

"oh snap"

For real dude...................................................................

You shoot yourself in the foot every post.
LOL... THAT is your scientific interpretation?

The freezer is there because someone built it. The ice is there either because an intelligent design made it or you bought it from someone who made it as you placed it in there... physically. It didn't just "POP" - I'm there!

WOW! It's no wonder you have a logic processing issue. I think you need a wider view of what is really happening.
 
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