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Darwin's Illusion

Audie

Veteran Member
"No, you did not. You asked this"

"How is a god a liar?"


:facepalm::facepalm:

You said that they claim god a liar.

I first asked how is a god a liar?

Btw... In my second reply with "How is god a liar is the same question I just forgot the "is" in red



But you do you :rolleyes::D
Have powerful waves of confusion swept
over your friend?
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Evolution is a type of adaptation.

Adaptation is sudden just like every single thing that affects life at every level.

It is a very similar force to what causes speciation; diminished populations or bottlenecks caused by a single trait or limited set of traits like color. When white moths get eaten all the moths soon are another color.

You haven't shown that ANY species has ever been exposed to adaptation long enough to create a new species. Indeed, one of the most common refrains among believers is that every individual is the same species as its parents. This is an impossibility and non sequitur but believers don't mind.

Individuals that can produce fertile offspring comprise a species.

So adolescents are another species. An acorn is no oak.

You are using words with no referents to describe a reality that doesn't exist. It's OK to use shortcuts and mnemonics for communication but not as a basis for theory. I wouldn't have a problem with species if not for believers having a problem with individuals. Believers want to divide individuals into more or less fit based not on their characteristics or consciousness (which they are usually denied) but rather on the perceived likeliness that they will survive.

They reason in circles and then want to impose their assumptions on everyone. Darwin was wrong that populations are stable so he had no chance to see the obvious; species change at bottlenecks when populations crash leaving only odd behavior. Why support Darwin when EVERY SINGLE SPECIATION EVENT EVER SEEN was sudden and occurred at bottlenecks. Darwin is proven wrong unless you can show tame wolves have are more fit than wild ones.

I've already argued that niches need not change for speciation to occur.

Then we agree. But why would YOU believe a lion would change in a stable niche?

You need to provide compelling arguments to change critically thinking minds.

And I have every experiment and observation ever made. Of course there are ab few anomalies because this is the nature of reality. It is very very complex.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Adaptation is sudden just like every single thing that affects life at every level.
Adaptation is change to more optimally exploit a situation, and can occur over very long periods of time.
You haven't shown that ANY species has ever been exposed to adaptation long enough to create a new species.
I think I did - ring species. You still haven't tried to rebut that argument, so, unsurprisingly, I still consider it a correct answer. If I considered it correct then, why wouldn't I now still? I've explained what can change my mind and what can't. Only rebuttal, which is a very specific type of argument - one that falsifies a claim. Merely disagreeing and explaining what you believe instead accomplishes nothing. You'd need to give me a reason to think I'm wrong, and only a sound, falsifying argument can do that. Nothing else. Please look at that again: NOTHING ELSE. If your purpose is only to share your ideas, then you don't need to worry about how they're received. But if your purpose is to change critically thinking minds, you'll need to learn what can and what cannot do that.
one of the most common refrains among believers is that every individual is the same species as its parents.
Because that true. There was no human being born that didn't have human parents. But this opens the door to the sorites paradox that occurs with gradual transformations from one thing to another. There was no first human being, yet human beings didn't exist ten million years ago but do now.
So adolescents are another species.
No. That's a semantic quibble based in my not specifying being fertile.
You are using words with no referents to describe a reality that doesn't exist.
So you claim.
Believers want to divide individuals into more or less fit based not on their characteristics or consciousness (which they are usually denied) but rather on the perceived likeliness that they will survive.
No, based on their fecundity. Surviving isn't enough, which is why I call survival of the fittest an unfortunate choice of language. Proliferation of the most fecund is more descriptive.
They reason in circles
So you say. You know the drill. Demonstrate the circularity if you can, and if you're correct, you can. If you're wrong, you can't.
Darwin was wrong that populations are stable
Darwin claimed they evolve.
Darwin is proven wrong unless you can show tame wolves have are more fit than wild ones.
Do you mean naturally gentle, or tamed by man? Darwin's theory only addresses the former. Either way, nothing about wolves contradicts Darwin. If you want to do more than tell others your opinion, you need to do more than merely state it.
why would YOU believe a lion would change in a stable niche?
Did I claim that? What I said was that niche is not part of the concept of species, and I gave the ring species example how speciation can occur in a niche. I assume that you didn't accept that argument, but since you didn't falsify it, it remains my position. You can't make progress without dialectic, and it's not dialectic without rebuttal/counterargument/falsification (synonyms in this context). Separate lions in a single niche into two populations unable to interbreed, and eventually, you will two species of lion.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
Adaptation is change to more optimally exploit a situation, and can occur over very long periods of time.

I think I did - ring species. You still haven't tried to rebut that argument, so, unsurprisingly, I still consider it a correct answer. If I considered it correct then, why wouldn't I now still? I've explained what can change my mind and what can't. Only rebuttal, which is a very specific type of argument - one that falsifies a claim. Merely disagreeing and explaining what you believe instead accomplishes nothing. You'd need to give me a reason to think I'm wrong, and only a sound, falsifying argument can do that. Nothing else. Please look at that again: NOTHING ELSE. If your purpose is only to share your ideas, then you don't need to worry about how they're received. But if your purpose is to change critically thinking minds, you'll need to learn what can and what cannot do that.

Because that true. There was no human being born that didn't have human parents. But this opens the door to the sorites paradox that occurs with gradual transformations from one thing to another. There was no first human being, yet human beings didn't exist ten million years ago but do now.

No. That's a semantic quibble based in my not specifying being fertile.

So you claim.

No, based on their fecundity. Surviving isn't enough, which is why I call survival of the fittest an unfortunate choice of language. Proliferation of the most fecund is more descriptive.

So you say. You know the drill. Demonstrate the circularity if you can, and if you're correct, you can. If you're wrong, you can't.

Darwin claimed they evolve.

Do you mean naturally gentle, or tamed by man? Darwin's theory only addresses the former. Either way, nothing about wolves contradicts Darwin. If you want to do more than tell others your opinion, you need to do more than merely state it.

Did I claim that? What I said was that niche is not part of the concept of species, and I gave the ring species example how speciation can occur in a niche. I assume that you didn't accept that argument, but since you didn't falsify it, it remains my position. You can't make progress without dialectic, and it's not dialectic without rebuttal/counterargument/falsification (synonyms in this context). Separate lions in a single niche into two populations unable to interbreed, and eventually, you will two species of lion.
The misunderstanding of basic science and biology seems to be driving this fixation on niche stability. The expectation of an increased rate of speciation in a stable niche where there is no strong selection doesn't appear to be a rational conclusion. Speciation could occur through other mechanisms like drift and migration, but it would be very slow change. Coelacanths for instance exist in very stable niches and, while not the same species as their ancestors, retain all the characters that define their ancestral group. In comparison, the cichild fauna of Lake Victoria in Africa did not exist 15,000 years ago. The lake didn't exist then. In that brief time some of the most rapid step-wise evolution known has occurred and not just with the genesis of new species, but new genera as well. The formation of the lake opened numerous niches in which a small starter population was able to evolve to fill in short order.

This idea that speciation must occur in stable niches where selection is vastly reduced doesn't make any sense.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
Sometimes you pay the price for misusing the ignore function.
Sometimes it means you address points made by the ignored through others as intermediaries. But you also don't have to see what amounts to someone yipping at your heals trying to get your attention for some ancient, perceived slight that never happened.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Adaptation is change to more optimally exploit a situation, and can occur over very long periods of time.

Adaptation as I'm using the term is sudden. Over a long period of time is "Evolution" which is the source of our disagreement. Darwin believes it exists but many here do not. Your job is to show evidence of gradual change to support your beliefs.

I think I did - ring species. You still haven't tried to rebut that argument, so, unsurprisingly, I still consider it a correct answer.

I already rebutted it. I guess you missed it.

But this opens the door to the sorites paradox that occurs with gradual transformations from one thing to another. There was no first human being, yet human beings didn't exist ten million years ago but do now.

So believers recognize the insanity of their own beliefs! It always comes down to assumptions and definitions and Darwin's assumptions and definitions are wrong no ,matter how many times this is ignored.

There is no "paradox". There are only bad definitions and assumptions.

Species don't change a little at a time. They don't even really exist. If they did exist they would be a slightly different species every single time an individual was born or died. The species would change every time an individual learned something new. If there were such a thing as "species" and "evolution" we would have to say that when fundamental changes accumulated sufficiently that there is a new species. But reality doesn't work this way; neither does change in species.

Very little of anything changes gradually. Everything is the result of cycles and processes. It's the nature of reality itself and if we didn't use an analog language to model a digital world this would be as obvious to all observers as it is to bees and beavers.

No. That's a semantic quibble based in my not specifying being fertile.

Yes and no. It is semantically based but the fact is that adults may or may not have a chance to procreate or a chance to procreate with a fertile individual. A cat who doesn't protect her kittens may as well not even be a cat. So if only unprotected kittens survive some "extinction event" then the new species will not be as cat-like as the old.

You believe you can estimate the odds of specific individual reproducing but you can not. All you can do is calculate a number in retrospect. You believe the most fit will procreate but this is an assumption and it is false. Certainly some behaviors and conditions lead to a higher or lower chance of success but in the final analysis there are far too many variables and far to much chance to make prediction. Any other means of observing the reality is simply circular reasoning.

So you say. You know the drill. Demonstrate the circularity if you can, and if you're correct, you can. If you're wrong, you can't.

I've done this more times than I can count. I've listed dozens of times they started with bad assumptions, shown why they were bad assumptions, and then showed how the conclusion was based on these assumptions. It has always been ignored.

Just in the ladst few pages I said twice that Darwin assumed populations were stable.

People don't really read my posts. They look for key words to call be "religious" or show that I don't support doctrine. Doctrine is wrong. It is circular. Horse > Cart thinking is all homo omnisciencis knows. This is why all real science is based on EXPERIMENT.

Darwin claimed they evolve.

Semantical. Populations are just a number that changes as being used here and in most of biology. It goes up and down, it does not evolve.

Either way, nothing about wolves contradicts Darwin. If you want to do more than tell others your opinion, you need to do more than merely state it.

How did dogs arise suddenly?
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
No. That's a semantic quibble based in my not specifying being fertile.

And the fact is "every" adult that ever lived was an adolescent before being an adult. It might be true the response was largely semantical but the reality is everything about life and its nature was ignored by Charles Darwin because he had no means of knowing at that time. He ignored individuals in favor of species. He ignored how individuals survive in favor of the assumption that the "fit" had a better chance of survival therefore this must underlie the gradual change in species he believed existed in the fossil record but still has never been shown.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Adaptation as I'm using the term is sudden. Over a long period of time is "Evolution" which is the source of our disagreement. Darwin believes it exists but many here do not. Your job is to show evidence of gradual change to support your beliefs.
Then you're using it wrong. No living individual animal, plant or fungus adapts, only species do, and that takes time. Even humans don't "adapt" in the sense you are trying to use it. Yes, we can build a house and a fire and survive the cold, but failing that, our bodies will not long survive cold. You see this all the time -- homeless people, unable to afford shelter, or unwilling (for whatever reason) to accept it, die in the cold all the time.

Stop trying to change the English language to mean only what you'd like it to mean. If you're trying to introduce a new idea, invent your own word.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Adaptation as I'm using the term is sudden.
You has said, "Adaptation is sudden just like every single thing that affects life at every level." Whenever you have a private definition of a word, we have a misunderstanding. The standard definition of the word doesn't imply suddenness.
Over a long period of time is "Evolution"
Evolution occurs daily.
Your job is to show evidence of gradual change to support your beliefs.
Evolution can only proceed in small steps. That's the basis of the argument that irreducible complexity argues for an intelligent designer. The ID investigators hoped to identify leaps too great for natural selection applied to natural genetic variation to accomplish, leaps where no intermediate form conferred an advantage that could be selected for naturally. They were thwarted by showing that small changes could do that.
If there were such a thing as "species" and "evolution" we would have to say that when fundamental changes accumulated sufficiently that there is a new species.
We do.
I already rebutted it. I guess you missed it.
I suspect a private understanding of rebuttal here. I told you what is required to call an argument a rebuttal. Mere dissent is not enough. Offering what you do believe instead is not enough. To be rebuttal, there must be falsification - disproof. There needs to be a counterargument that identifies and demonstrates an error - falsification. No, I never saw that despite reading every word you have written to me.
A cat who doesn't protect her kittens may as well not even be a cat.
That's an odd comment. What should it be instead?
You believe you can estimate the odds of specific individual reproducing but you can not.
No, I don't believe I can estimate that.
You believe the most fit will procreate but this is an assumption and it is false.
It's not an assumption. It's a definition. Fitness in this context is proportional to fecundity.
Just in the ladst few pages I said twice that Darwin assumed populations were stable.
That was successfully rebutted, falsified. Darwing said the opposite. He said they change over time. Can you see how that kind of dissent differs from merely saying that I disagree and giving opinions that don't make yours wrong even if correct themselves? I directly contradicted your claim in a way that we can't both be correct. This is how dialectic helps resolve differences in opinion.
How did dogs arise suddenly?
I'm sure the history of dogs is available on the Internet.
 
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Audie

Veteran Member
Darwin's Illusion

Darwin believed that life can be explained by natural selection based on his expectation that organic life was exceedingly simple.
He lived in a time when people believed a brood of mice could suddenly appear in a basket of dirty clothes. In other words Darwin was under the illusion that life could appear spontaneously under the right conditions.
Based on this ignorance, he crafted an explanation for variation within a species, and formulated a theory explaining the process whereby life could arise from nonliving matter and mutate to the variety of living entities we see today.

It is postulated that this narrative has been overwhelmingly accepted in educated circles for more than a century even though the basic mechanisms of organic life remained a mystery until several decades ago- as a convenient alternative to belief in a creator.

After 1950 biochemistry has come to understand that living matters is more complex than Darwin could ever have dreamed of.

So, in view of this, what happened to Darwin allegedly elegant and simple idea ?
Although not a single sector of Darwinic evolution can offer uncontested proof that it is nothing more than a imaginative theory it is acclaimed by mainstream scientists as a science.

Lynn Margulis a distinguished University Professor of Biology puts it this way:
"History will ultimately judge neo-Darwinism as a minor twentieth-century religious sect within the sprawling religious persuasion of Anglo-Saxon biology"
She asks any molecular biologists to name a single, unambiguous example of the formation of a new species by the accumulation of mutations. Her challenge to date is still unmet.
She says " proponents of the standard theory [of evolution] wallow in their zoological, capitalistic, competitive, cost-benefit interpretation of Darwin..."
No he developed a theory about how LIFE CHANGRS.

I don't know where you got the "exceedingly simple" as part of it.

That he tried to include abiogenesis is totally incorrect.

YOUR illusions here.

TOE is an elegant theory, and,
it certainly has not been disproved.

That you think science deals in proof just
shows again thstyou dont know what you are talking about.


We love the way any " professor " who seems to
have doubts on the validity of ToE is always
" brilliant" or " distinguished", often a " genius".

None of them have any data to disprove the theory.

IOW, it's all shallow blather. Like your post.
 
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cladking

Well-Known Member
Stop trying to change the English language to mean only what you'd like it to mean. If you're trying to introduce a new idea, invent your own word.

If you refuse to parse a sentence the way the author intended you are playing word games.

No living individual animal, plant or fungus adapts, only species do, and that takes time. Even humans don't "adapt" in the sense you are trying to use it.

This isn't really true on several levels. "Placebo effect" is very powerful. One can experience what he chooses to a very large degree. This probably isn't as strong, if it exists at all, in animals but certainly humans can get comfortable in harsh environments. They can also do things like figure out how to build a shelter, obtain food, and find water almost anywhere. Individuals of all species adapt in order to survive and they do this with... ...drum roll, please... ...consciousness. From experience and consciousness they make changes in themselves and their environment to survive and procreate. There is also evidence that some learning and experience can even affect genes so that progeny has a head start on adaptations though this kind of experimentation is somewhat suspect at this time.

Consciousness is life and life is consciousness. Consciousness not only is life but also provides the means to survive in every situation and allows change to better suit the niche. Consciousness gave bees the waggle dance and termites agriculture without which their populations would be far lower or nonexistent. Without bees bird populations would be far higher affecting most niches and causing far more raptors. Nature stabilizes but still populations undergo bottlenecks causing speciation.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
You has said, "Adaptation is sudden just like every single thing that affects life at every level." Whenever you have a private definition of a word, we have a misunderstanding. The standard definition of the word doesn't imply suddenness.

Mia culpa. I was not aware that you use the definition of "adaptation" to ever mean a "slow change in species caused by survival of the fittest". I'd have used another word or defined it had i known.

Evolution occurs daily.

Says you.

But then you also say that species change gradually and every off spring is the same species as its parents so you are necessarily wrong.

You can't have it both ways.

That's an odd comment. What should it be instead?

End of the line?

Every individual that has completely different behavior than its own species would breed a new species if only others like it survived.

This is why religions emphasize proper behavior; ancient science was well aware that odd behavior could result in speciation. Ancient people believed the past and future were just as important as the present. Today we destroy the planet and the "less fit" in the name of immediate profit and ill gotten gain.

Evolution can only proceed in small steps. That's the basis of the argument that irreducible complexity argues for an intelligent designer.

I don't care about ID or any other belief system including yours. This isn't to say no belief system is correct or partially correct merely that I am not promoting them. I believe that all change in all life (consciousness) is sudden. There are no "small steps" and no "missing links". Time don't fly it bounds and leaps.

It's not an assumption. It's a definition. Fitness in this context is proportional to fecundity.

It is an assumption of the conclusion. It is EXACTLY where Darwin went wrong. Unless you can predict in advance which individuals will do best and which niche will exist then you are assuming the conclusion.

That was successfully rebutted, falsified.

LOL.

But you can't show me where. Just as I've already posted the link to where Darwin said that "survival of the fittest" was the best term and that he assumed that populations were steady you simply can't see it but you can imagine exactly how I was disproved soundly despite the fact I can't prove God exists and you establish proof of "Evolution" just by appending the word "theory" to it.

Believers in science are the holiest of thou and have never lost an argument or been wrong about anything. Homo omnisciencis!
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If you refuse to parse a sentence the way the author intended you are playing word games.
The problem here is that it can be difficult to know what you intend when you use private definitions of words without being clear what YOU mean when you use the word.
Consciousness is life and life is consciousness.
Here's a good example. You must have a private definition of one or both of these words to equate them, since in common usage, these words refer to different things. For example, I just awakened from a nap. Consciousness disappeared for me while sleeping, but I remained just as alive asleep as when awake.
I was not aware that you use the definition of "adaptation" to ever mean a "slow change in species caused by survival of the fittest".
I don't define adaptation that way, and you probably shouldn't put quotations around words you attribute to others that you didn't copy verbatim. Here's the definition I provided (verbatim): "Adaptation is change to more optimally exploit a situation, and can occur over very long periods of time." Survival of the fittest wasn't part of that definition. You inserted it. Developing calluses due to learning a stringed instrument or wearing ill-fitting shoes is an adaptation that is neither sudden nor related to survival of the fittest.
Says you. But then you also say that species change gradually and every off spring is the same species as its parents so you are necessarily wrong. You can't have it both ways.
That was in response to, "Evolution occurs daily." Are you confusing evolution and speciation? A human couple had a child today, and the human gene pool evolved slightly with the addition of a new genome. If there was a mutation in one of the parental germ cells, then there may be a new allele in that gene pool. That's evolution, and both parents and child are human. The ideas aren't contradictory.
Every individual that has completely different behavior than its own species would breed a new species if only others like it survived.
And what shall we call the process whereby the individuals who are different and survive because of that difference begin to accumulate in a population over a few generations?
It is an assumption of the conclusion.
It's a definition, which is not an argument and therefore cannot contain a (circularity) fallacy. It's a common misunderstanding. We see it in a common criticism of evolution that survival of the fittest is a circular argument - "It's fit because it survives and it survives because it's fit." But that's not an argument, just a definition. The argument is that natural selection applied to genetic variation in population across generations leads to biological evolution (evolving gene pools).
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
The problem here is that it can be difficult to know what you intend when you use private definitions of words without being clear what YOU mean when you use the word.

And I've defined "metaphysical" at least 50 times but it still continues. I've also shown there is nothing "private definitions of words" about this term since it is in the unabridged dictionary and is accepted usage. It is the FIRST definition but this doesn't matter because I defined it as "basis of science".

I believe if you look up "adaptation" or "adaptable" you'll also find my definition FIRST. But this doesn't matter because words means what they are intended to mean and everything else is semantics.

I used "adaptation" other than the way you used it without knowing I was doing it. I already acknowledged this so we should get over it.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I've defined "metaphysical" at least 50 times but it still continues.
That isn't the word I was referring to. It was your private definition of adaptation. And I've never seen your definition of metaphysical. I asked you what metaphysical language was once, but your answer didn't clarify it for me.
I believe if you look up "adaptation" or "adaptable" you'll also find my definition FIRST.
I've never seen your definition anywhere else but from you, which is why I called it private.
I used "adaptation" other than the way you used it without knowing I was doing it. I already acknowledged this so we should get over it.
Get over what? You had said, "If you refuse to parse a sentence the way the author intended you are playing word games" in response to a request that and I responded "The problem here is that it can be difficult to know what you intend when you use private definitions of words without being clear what YOU mean when you use the word." Do you disagree or resent the comment?
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
I've never seen your definition anywhere else but from you, which is why I called it private.

adaptation

ăd″ăp-tā′shən

noun​

  1. The act or process of adapting.
  2. The state of being adapted.
  3. Something, such as a device or mechanism, that is changed or changes so as to become suitable to a new or special application or situation.
I used the FIRST definition for the term and already apologized though I did nothing wrong except to INADVERTENTLY set people up to parse it wrong. Incredibly enough because it is being used as a synonym for "Evolution" in the same sentence with "evolution"!

Perhaps they should be apologizing to me.

I probably won't respond to this further even in the unlikely event a response is on topic.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Developing calluses due to learning a stringed instrument or wearing ill-fitting shoes is an adaptation that is neither sudden nor related to survival of the fittest.

And these types of adaption don’t result from speciation.

@cladking don’t understand that speciation occurred at population-level, not at personal & individual-level.

Take your stringed instrument example, for instance. Not only does calluses developed over time while practising or playing the instrument, your children and grandchildren won’t inherit the same calluses in their hands and fingers when they are born.

Such personal physical traits don’t go through from father to child, from ancestors to descendants, because the calluses in the hand, won’t be imprinted in parent’s DNA and passed on child or children. In some cases, adaption don’t always passed on to future generations.
 
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