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Darwin's most vexing problem

Neuropteron

Active Member


Hi all,
This is a condensed list of some of your valued opinion.
sorry if I forgot some.
------------------------------------------

everything you have written have been refuted and demonstrated to be wrong.
I suspect you're not reading the scientific news.
it has been contradicted by zero evidence.
This comment reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of the verified mechanisms of evolution
Irreducible complexity has been thoroughly debunked and proven false
challenge evolution with a notion that isn't over 80 years old and incorporates modern data and modern analysis
So the process of evolution is a fact. It occurs.
The 'problem' of irreducible complexity has long been solved.
is so trivially easy to explain using the confirmed mechanisms of mutation and natural selection.
------------------------------------------

I admit to knowing very little about science, and no, I do not read the scientific news.
Nonetheless I live in the fantasy that I have half a brain and when I read a logical explanation that challenges a "belief" that is adopted by the majority on the basis that "everybody knows its a facts" argument, I begin to wonder if this "majority" is not influenced by propaganda.

If my premise is wrong and so trivially easy to explain why is it that not one commentary was able to address It?
As a laymen I was able to understand perfectly in simple terms one of the reasons for doubting evolution.
Should it not also be expected that a person that fervently believes in it is able to explain the reasons for supporting it?

Nonetheless I thank you for your comments
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
“been found”? Nope. Suggested, maybe.... but that’s philosophy.

if you think these steps have been found, where?
Creationists challenged....& nature provided examples of intermediate steps....
humane7.jpg


They should've imagined starting with well known simple
structures such as the heat sensing pits on vipers, with
which they see infrared light emitted by their prey.
 
Last edited:

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Hi all,
This is a condensed list of some of your valued opinion.
sorry if I forgot some.
------------------------------------------

everything you have written have been refuted and demonstrated to be wrong.
I suspect you're not reading the scientific news.
it has been contradicted by zero evidence.
This comment reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of the verified mechanisms of evolution
Irreducible complexity has been thoroughly debunked and proven false
challenge evolution with a notion that isn't over 80 years old and incorporates modern data and modern analysis
So the process of evolution is a fact. It occurs.
The 'problem' of irreducible complexity has long been solved.
is so trivially easy to explain using the confirmed mechanisms of mutation and natural selection.
------------------------------------------

I admit to knowing very little about science, and no, I do not read the scientific news.
Nonetheless I live in the fantasy that I have half a brain and when I read a logical explanation that challenges a "belief" that is adopted by the majority on the basis that "everybody knows its a facts" argument, I begin to wonder if this "majority" is not influenced by propaganda.

If my premise is wrong and so trivially easy to explain why is it that not one commentary was able to address It?
As a laymen I was able to understand perfectly in simple terms one of the reasons for doubting evolution.
Should it not also be expected that a person that fervently believes in it is able to explain the reasons for supporting it?

Nonetheless I thank you for your comments

Other than you specified banning the science in your op perhaps people are just bored with the whole discredit 'god dun it wiv god magic' thing... Or the typical ignoring of evidence
 
Last edited:

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Hmmm... Just curious, but what is a "proven fact" in science?

As far as I was aware, there are scientific theories. Yes, they have to pass certain tests to become theories, but when those theories are found to be flawed, they are either updated or discarded by the new information that comes along.

Evolution is a theory that has been around for a long time, and has survived a lot of people trying to tear it down; both from those who don't like it, and by those who want credit for tearing down such a well established theory (think of the fame someone could acquire in the scientific community for dethroning evolution).

There just hasn't been anyone yet that has been able to dethrone evolution, IMO.

Gravity is a theory. First proposed by Newton and expanded by Einstein. In the new theory
there is no 'force' of gravity, only the bending of space. There's a ways to go yet before we
fully understand gravity - it can't even fit into our 'Standard Model' of physics. But that doesn't
mean you won't break your neck falling off the roof.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
Hi all,
This is a condensed list of some of your valued opinion.
sorry if I forgot some.
------------------------------------------

everything you have written have been refuted and demonstrated to be wrong.
I suspect you're not reading the scientific news.
it has been contradicted by zero evidence.
This comment reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of the verified mechanisms of evolution
Irreducible complexity has been thoroughly debunked and proven false
challenge evolution with a notion that isn't over 80 years old and incorporates modern data and modern analysis
So the process of evolution is a fact. It occurs.
The 'problem' of irreducible complexity has long been solved.
is so trivially easy to explain using the confirmed mechanisms of mutation and natural selection.
------------------------------------------

I admit to knowing very little about science, and no, I do not read the scientific news.
Nonetheless I live in the fantasy that I have half a brain and when I read a logical explanation that challenges a "belief" that is adopted by the majority on the basis that "everybody knows its a facts" argument, I begin to wonder if this "majority" is not influenced by propaganda.

If my premise is wrong and so trivially easy to explain why is it that not one commentary was able to address It?
As a laymen I was able to understand perfectly in simple terms one of the reasons for doubting evolution.
Should it not also be expected that a person that fervently believes in it is able to explain the reasons for supporting it?

Nonetheless I thank you for your comments
You admit that you do not know science and do not keep up with the scientific literature, so what is the basis that you reject science? How can you claim something is refuted if you do not have the relevant knowledge? How do you know what you have used here is correct or current or hasn't been widely refuted many, many, many, many times and you are just repeating dead arguments without the wherewithal to know better? You claim not to know, so how can you know if your sources are valid? How can I trust someone that says they know so little and yet make such large claims?
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
Hi all,
This is a condensed list of some of your valued opinion.
sorry if I forgot some.
------------------------------------------

everything you have written have been refuted and demonstrated to be wrong.
I suspect you're not reading the scientific news.
it has been contradicted by zero evidence.
This comment reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of the verified mechanisms of evolution
Irreducible complexity has been thoroughly debunked and proven false
challenge evolution with a notion that isn't over 80 years old and incorporates modern data and modern analysis
So the process of evolution is a fact. It occurs.
The 'problem' of irreducible complexity has long been solved.
is so trivially easy to explain using the confirmed mechanisms of mutation and natural selection.
------------------------------------------

I admit to knowing very little about science, and no, I do not read the scientific news.
Nonetheless I live in the fantasy that I have half a brain and when I read a logical explanation that challenges a "belief" that is adopted by the majority on the basis that "everybody knows its a facts" argument, I begin to wonder if this "majority" is not influenced by propaganda.

If my premise is wrong and so trivially easy to explain why is it that not one commentary was able to address It?
As a laymen I was able to understand perfectly in simple terms one of the reasons for doubting evolution.
Should it not also be expected that a person that fervently believes in it is able to explain the reasons for supporting it?

Nonetheless I thank you for your comments
Another rapidly retreating win for creationists?
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Darwin feared that his theory of gradual evolution had a potentially serious flaw.
Namely irreducible complexity and the nature of mutation.
He knew that if it could be demonstrated that any organ existed that could not have possibly been formed by repeated successive iterations using slight modifications his theory would experience a complete breakdown.

Could it be safe to say that much of the scientific skepticism surrounding the theory of evolution has centered around this requirement ?

From Mivart's critisism to Margulis dismissal of gradual mutation, I think that critics of evolution have demonstrated that this criterion of failure has been established. eg. https://michaelbehe.com;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity

How do we know that biological systems could not be formed by succesive and repeated modification?
To begin with a system that is irreducibly complex cannot be produced by successive modification of a precursor system, because any such precursor is by definition nonfunctional.
We have to keep in mind that natural selection can only select a pattern that is already working.

This means that if a biological system cannot be produced gradually it would have to suddenly come into existence as a fully funtioning and integral unit for natural selection to continue its course. Simply stated its either gradual or sudden.

Goldscmidt's theory "called hopeful monster theory" which attempst to integrate "sudden appearance" with gradual mutation is replete with speculations and empty of convincing arguments. We might as well propose that the whole earth "with all of it's current features" as we know it today suddenly sprang into existence . Using luck to explaine a process is not science but metaphysical speculation.

Additionally, there is another difficulty for Darwin's theory. It's called "minimal function capability",
Not only do "all" of the parts for a irreducible system require to be present for a component to work but the part have to be made of the 1/right material and 2cd work in prescribed manner.
Unlike irreducible complexity, minimal function is hard to describe, but is an important part in a working system.
For instance:
A mousetrap requiring 5 solid parts could not work if all the parts were made of paper.
A plane could not work if the propellers turnes at 1 rpm, regardless of otherwise proper construction.

For the theory of evolution to be even fleetingly considered scientific these two issues (and others) would have to be satisfactorily resolved, they never have.

Until these and similar issues are answered, do you think that evolution should be considered a scientific fact or be relegated to the section: Fiction and fantasy? or religion and faith?

Should a person want to, what could we replace evolution with?
Belief in a divine architect and creator ?
Put it in the "Cannot be answered" folder ?

Note:
I am aware that many scientists are supportive of evolution. I am also aware that no scientist has proved it a fact.
Please do not expect me to read reams of information supporting this pseudo-science, I have already done my share of searching and reading (ad nausea) to find legitimate support for evolution.
However if you want to share information in your own words about evolution, I would appreciate that.

All the above is my opinion and is not presented with the purpose to annoy.
Just to note.
98% of practicing scientists in America support not only evolution but human evolution.
For Darwin Day, 6 facts about the evolution debate
2015-07-23_AAAS-members-elaboration_02.png
 
Last edited:

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Hi all,
This is a condensed list of some of your valued opinion.
sorry if I forgot some.
------------------------------------------

everything you have written have been refuted and demonstrated to be wrong.
I suspect you're not reading the scientific news.
it has been contradicted by zero evidence.
This comment reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of the verified mechanisms of evolution
Irreducible complexity has been thoroughly debunked and proven false
challenge evolution with a notion that isn't over 80 years old and incorporates modern data and modern analysis
So the process of evolution is a fact. It occurs.
The 'problem' of irreducible complexity has long been solved.
is so trivially easy to explain using the confirmed mechanisms of mutation and natural selection.
------------------------------------------

I admit to knowing very little about science, and no, I do not read the scientific news.
Nonetheless I live in the fantasy that I have half a brain and when I read a logical explanation that challenges a "belief" that is adopted by the majority on the basis that "everybody knows its a facts" argument, I begin to wonder if this "majority" is not influenced by propaganda.

If my premise is wrong and so trivially easy to explain why is it that not one commentary was able to address It?
As a laymen I was able to understand perfectly in simple terms one of the reasons for doubting evolution.
Should it not also be expected that a person that fervently believes in it is able to explain the reasons for supporting it?

Nonetheless I thank you for your comments
Could you please give an example of a biological structure that has been shown to be irreducibly complex. Please also explain why its irreducibly complex. Without an example there is nothing we can discuss.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Just to note.
98% of practicing scientists in America support not only evolution but human evolution.
For Darwin Day, 6 facts about the evolution debate
2015-07-23_AAAS-members-elaboration_02.png
Which shows that those matters discussed are too complicated for uneducated people to understand and correctly evaluate.
And that's why I didn't actively participate in this debate. @Neuropteron explicitly requested not to be educated. It is simply not possible to understand the ToE without a solid education.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
You admit that you do not know science and do not keep up with the scientific literature, so what is the basis that you reject science? How can you claim something is refuted if you do not have the relevant knowledge? How do you know what you have used here is correct or current or hasn't been widely refuted many, many, many, many times and you are just repeating dead arguments without the wherewithal to know better? You claim not to know, so how can you know if your sources are valid? How can I trust someone that says they know so little and yet make such large claims?
And a like to a theist too. :D
Theists too say that God is unknowable, but they know precisely how he works or what he wants.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
And a like to a theist too. :D
Theists too say that God is unknowable, but they know precisely how he works or what he wants.
I am not sure what you are saying.

We can learn about the world around us by observation and experimentation. We can draw conclusions from that knowledge about God's creation. That is not claiming to know the mind of God.
 

McBell

Unbound
I am not sure what you are saying.

We can learn about the world around us by observation and experimentation. We can draw conclusions from that knowledge about God's creation. That is not claiming to know the mind of God.
Seems to me he is saying that there are an awful lot of theists who claim to know the mind of god.

One group that comes to mind is Westboro Baptist Church...
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Darwin feared that his theory of gradual evolution had a potentially serious flaw.
Namely irreducible complexity and the nature of mutation.
He knew that if it could be demonstrated that any organ existed that could not have possibly been formed by repeated successive iterations using slight modifications his theory would experience a complete breakdown.

Could it be safe to say that much of the scientific skepticism surrounding the theory of evolution has centered around this requirement ?

From Mivart's critisism to Margulis dismissal of gradual mutation, I think that critics of evolution have demonstrated that this criterion of failure has been established. eg. https://michaelbehe.com;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity

How do we know that biological systems could not be formed by succesive and repeated modification?
To begin with a system that is irreducibly complex cannot be produced by successive modification of a precursor system, because any such precursor is by definition nonfunctional.
We have to keep in mind that natural selection can only select a pattern that is already working.

This means that if a biological system cannot be produced gradually it would have to suddenly come into existence as a fully funtioning and integral unit for natural selection to continue its course. Simply stated its either gradual or sudden.

Goldscmidt's theory "called hopeful monster theory" which attempst to integrate "sudden appearance" with gradual mutation is replete with speculations and empty of convincing arguments. We might as well propose that the whole earth "with all of it's current features" as we know it today suddenly sprang into existence . Using luck to explaine a process is not science but metaphysical speculation.

Additionally, there is another difficulty for Darwin's theory. It's called "minimal function capability",
Not only do "all" of the parts for a irreducible system require to be present for a component to work but the part have to be made of the 1/right material and 2cd work in prescribed manner.
Unlike irreducible complexity, minimal function is hard to describe, but is an important part in a working system.
For instance:
A mousetrap requiring 5 solid parts could not work if all the parts were made of paper.
A plane could not work if the propellers turnes at 1 rpm, regardless of otherwise proper construction.

For the theory of evolution to be even fleetingly considered scientific these two issues (and others) would have to be satisfactorily resolved, they never have.

Until these and similar issues are answered, do you think that evolution should be considered a scientific fact or be relegated to the section: Fiction and fantasy? or religion and faith?

Should a person want to, what could we replace evolution with?
Belief in a divine architect and creator ?
Put it in the "Cannot be answered" folder ?

Note:
I am aware that many scientists are supportive of evolution. I am also aware that no scientist has proved it a fact.
Please do not expect me to read reams of information supporting this pseudo-science, I have already done my share of searching and reading (ad nausea) to find legitimate support for evolution.
However if you want to share information in your own words about evolution, I would appreciate that.

All the above is my opinion and is not presented with the purpose to annoy.

I dont think "evolution" should be discarded or even in a list to be because one mechanism has criticism and alternative mechanisms.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I don't think "evolution" should be discarded or even in a list to be because one mechanism has criticism and alternative mechanisms.
Perhaps, you do not even need science (after it has given you electricity, cars, computers, etc.). The book explains it all.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Perhaps, you do not even need science (after it has given you electricity, cars, computers, etc.). The book explains it all.

Really? You think science is not needed because a book explains it?

1. Which book explains that science is not needed?
2. And why did you respond to my post with this science and some book?

Can you explain?
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
Seems to me he is saying that there are an awful lot of theists who claim to know the mind of god.

One group that comes to mind is Westboro Baptist Church...
I agree there seem to be a lot of them.

I still do not know which god it is that the WBC thinks they are mind reading.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Darwin feared that his theory of gradual evolution had a potentially serious flaw.
Namely irreducible complexity and the nature of mutation.
He knew that if it could be demonstrated that any organ existed that could not have possibly been formed by repeated successive iterations using slight modifications his theory would experience a complete breakdown.

Could it be safe to say that much of the scientific skepticism surrounding the theory of evolution has centered around this requirement ?

From Mivart's critisism to Margulis dismissal of gradual mutation, I think that critics of evolution have demonstrated that this criterion of failure has been established. eg. https://michaelbehe.com;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity

How do we know that biological systems could not be formed by succesive and repeated modification?
To begin with a system that is irreducibly complex cannot be produced by successive modification of a precursor system, because any such precursor is by definition nonfunctional.
We have to keep in mind that natural selection can only select a pattern that is already working.

This means that if a biological system cannot be produced gradually it would have to suddenly come into existence as a fully funtioning and integral unit for natural selection to continue its course. Simply stated its either gradual or sudden.

Goldscmidt's theory "called hopeful monster theory" which attempst to integrate "sudden appearance" with gradual mutation is replete with speculations and empty of convincing arguments. We might as well propose that the whole earth "with all of it's current features" as we know it today suddenly sprang into existence . Using luck to explaine a process is not science but metaphysical speculation.

Additionally, there is another difficulty for Darwin's theory. It's called "minimal function capability",
Not only do "all" of the parts for a irreducible system require to be present for a component to work but the part have to be made of the 1/right material and 2cd work in prescribed manner.
Unlike irreducible complexity, minimal function is hard to describe, but is an important part in a working system.
For instance:
A mousetrap requiring 5 solid parts could not work if all the parts were made of paper.
A plane could not work if the propellers turnes at 1 rpm, regardless of otherwise proper construction.

For the theory of evolution to be even fleetingly considered scientific these two issues (and others) would have to be satisfactorily resolved, they never have.

Until these and similar issues are answered, do you think that evolution should be considered a scientific fact or be relegated to the section: Fiction and fantasy? or religion and faith?

Should a person want to, what could we replace evolution with?
Belief in a divine architect and creator ?
Put it in the "Cannot be answered" folder ?

Note:
I am aware that many scientists are supportive of evolution. I am also aware that no scientist has proved it a fact.
Please do not expect me to read reams of information supporting this pseudo-science, I have already done my share of searching and reading (ad nausea) to find legitimate support for evolution.
However if you want to share information in your own words about evolution, I would appreciate that.

All the above is my opinion and is not presented with the purpose to annoy.

Darwin was obviously wrong. He should not have feared for his theory. Which is substantially unchanged and still alive and kicking after all these years.

proponents of ID (or the more correct SD), including proponents of irreducible complexity should have feared for their ideas, instead. Which are basically dead by now without having produced any scientific result at all.

ciao

- viole
 
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