Dating and marriage

[Trailblazer]

I do not like dating. I never dated in my life and now I am supposed to go out on dates just because I want to get married? I don’t want a free lunch or dinner with a man I met on a dating site, a man I know nothing about except for a few things he told me which I cannot even verify are the truth.

Before I got married, I did not date because I was not interested in sex or in getting married. One time I met a man at work. We talked after work and I invited him over to my house but we never went out on a date. I met my late husband through my sister and mother and we got married three weeks later. After he proposed and I accepted we went camping but there was no date and there was no sex.

A few months ago, I met a man from a dating site at a park nearby and we walked and talked. That was not really a date but it was very awkward to say the least. All I knew about him was that he was a widower but he did not look anything like his photo. I had nothing in common with him except that we had both been widowed.

A couple of days ago I met a man on a dating site and he said he wanted to meet me and he was willing to drive two hours to where I live to meet me since he was so sure I was “the one.” He sent me his cell phone number and wanted me to call him, so I called him a couple of days ago. From what he told me about himself I didn’t really think it could work out because his culture and lifestyle is so different from mine but I was still willing to keep talking to him.

We texted back and forth a lot yesterday. Apparently, he assumed I was going to live with him before we got married but he would not come right out and say it, like an honest man would have done. Instead, he kept beating around the bush. Then I told him outright that Baha'is do not ‘live together’ before marriage or have sex out of wedlock and then he said "Who said anything about sex?" Of course that is what he was thinking.

I asked him why couples need to live together before they get married and he said because you need to know ‘everything’ about someone before you get married in order not to get divorced later. I asked him what you need to know that you couldn't find out while living separately, their eating and sleeping habits? Of course, he meant sex but he refused to say it. I very much dislike obfuscation and dishonesty is even worse.

In my last text I said "I don't want sex at all. I would only have it if I was in love as a duty to my husband, but only in marriage." After that the texts finally came to a screeching halt and I never heard from him again. This is verification enough for me that all he wanted was sex and he was thinking of sex when he said we had to ‘live together’ before getting married. Good riddance to bad rubbish. He never should have ‘assumed’ I would live with him and have sex before marriage so it was his mistake.

It seems to me that all the men I have met on dating sites want is money or sex. Some men might also want love, but I cannot know if I love a man I have never even met. First, I have to be informed of their character and then I have to meet them to know if there is a physical attraction and an emotional connection.

I do not need sex or romance. I do not need any money from a man since I have more than enough money to live on for the rest of my life. That is not why I want to get married. The only reason I would want to marry is for love, companionship, and emotional support, and to have a spiritual help-mate. I also want a man to help me take care of the house and yard and cats. Is this too much to ask? What do I have to offer a man in order to expect something in return? Does sex always have to be part of the bargain? Sex is not love. What ever happened to love and companionship?

My late husband used to say, “For Baha’is, principles are everything.” After what happened with that man who was texting me, that kept echoing over and over again in my mind. I was not sad that he was out of my life. I was very happy knowing that I would never compromise my principles. If that means I have to be alone for the rest of my life, so be it. I would rather be lonely than compromise my principles.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Dating sites have always seemed to me largely unreliable and often based on superficialities, because it's impossible to really decide whether someone is compatible with oneself from a brief biography, a few photos, and a meager collection of personal information that may or may not even be accurate.

That said, I think it's entirely possible, based on your description of what happened, that this man may indeed have not been interested in sex when he proposed living together. I have multiple friends who share his views on living with someone before marriage in order to know them closely—their hygiene, their daily habits, their sleep routine, and a multitude of other things that don't necessarily have anything to do with sex. Individually, some of them may seem insignificant, but they can add up and make a difference when committing to someone and living with them.

Furthermore, I don't think this part necessarily means he was only interested in sex either:

In my last text I said "I don't want sex at all. I would only have it if I was in love as a duty to my husband, but only in marriage."

It seems entirely possible that he simply recognized a different view on relationships and sex that is incompatible with his and therefore decided to pursue a relationship with a more suitable person for him. Nothing wrong with that, just as there's nothing wrong with your having your preferences and principles. I know that if I were looking for a partner and I found out they viewed sex as a marital "duty" rather than a form of bonding, I would immediately question whether we were compatible with each other.

It's perfectly fine to have preferences, but I don't think we should assume others' intentions merely based on our own preferences and values or project them onto others' words and actions. Human psychology is too diverse for that to yield consistently fair, accurate, or reliable results.

 

[ChristineM]

@Trailblazer

Why do you need to get married? From what you say you could employ someone to help out around the house maybe a couple of hours a day. You get companionship on your terms, you get work done for which you are paying so if the employee is not up to scratch then fire them and employ another. The only thing you'd be missing is the spiritual angle.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It sounds as if you never had a fulfilling sex life. Sex should never be a duty. Sex should be highly enjoyable to both people. If only one partner wants sex then it is not very different from rape.

And this is why premarital sex is a good thing. People can practice what should be a very important part of their life so that they can please both themselves and their partners. It sounds as if your husband never pleased you sexually. This is a major flaw with many religions. They date from a time when birth control did not exist so sex was rather dangerous. Now one need not worry about an unwanted pregnancy if one is reasonably careful.

I am not saying that you should go out and get have some sex with someone that you do not know very well, but it helps to understand why some feel the way that they do about sex. If this was due to your religious beliefs then your religion failed you in this aspect. The problem may be with the local teachings that you were raised with. And your religious leaders did nothing to fix them.

 

[Sand Dancer]

I do not like dating. I never dated in my life and now I am supposed to go out on dates just because I want to get married? I don’t want a free lunch or dinner with a man I met on a dating site, a man I know nothing about except for a few things he told me which I cannot even verify are the truth.

Before I got married, I did not date because I was not interested in sex or in getting married. One time I met a man at work. We talked after work and I invited him over to my house but we never went out on a date. I met my late husband through my sister and mother and we got married three weeks later. After he proposed and I accepted we went camping but there was no date and there was no sex.

A few months ago, I met a man from a dating site at a park nearby and we walked and talked. That was not really a date but it was very awkward to say the least. All I knew about him was that he was a widower but he did not look anything like his photo. I had nothing in common with him except that we had both been widowed.

A couple of days ago I met a man on a dating site and he said he wanted to meet me and he was willing to drive two hours to where I live to meet me since he was so sure I was “the one.” He sent me his cell phone number and wanted me to call him, so I called him a couple of days ago. From what he told me about himself I didn’t really think it could work out because his culture and lifestyle is so different from mine but I was still willing to keep talking to him.

We texted back and forth a lot yesterday. Apparently, he assumed I was going to live with him before we got married but he would not come right out and say it, like an honest man would have done. Instead, he kept beating around the bush. Then I told him outright that Baha'is do not ‘live together’ before marriage or have sex out of wedlock and then he said "Who said anything about sex?" Of course that is what he was thinking.

I asked him why couples need to live together before they get married and he said because you need to know ‘everything’ about someone before you get married in order not to get divorced later. I asked him what you need to know that you couldn't find out while living separately, their eating and sleeping habits? Of course, he meant sex but he refused to say it. I very much dislike obfuscation and dishonesty is even worse.

In my last text I said "I don't want sex at all. I would only have it if I was in love as a duty to my husband, but only in marriage." After that the texts finally came to a screeching halt and I never heard from him again. This is verification enough for me that all he wanted was sex and he was thinking of sex when he said we had to ‘live together’ before getting married. Good riddance to bad rubbish. He never should have ‘assumed’ I would live with him and have sex before marriage so it was his mistake.

It seems to me that all the men I have met on dating sites want is money or sex. Some men might also want love, but I cannot know if I love a man I have never even met. First, I have to be informed of their character and then I have to meet them to know if there is a physical attraction and an emotional connection.

I do not need sex or romance. I do not need any money from a man since I have more than enough money to live on for the rest of my life. That is not why I want to get married. The only reason I would want to marry is for love, companionship, and emotional support, and to have a spiritual help-mate. I also want a man to help me take care of the house and yard and cats. Is this too much to ask? What do I have to offer a man in order to expect something in return? Does sex always have to be part of the bargain? Sex is not love. What ever happened to love and companionship?

My late husband used to say, “For Baha’is, principles are everything.” After what happened with that man who was texting me, that kept echoing over and over again in my mind. I was not sad that he was out of my life. I was very happy knowing that I would never compromise my principles. If that means I have to be alone for the rest of my life, so be it. I would rather be lonely than compromise my principles.

That is very frustrating. Friends say the same thing about dating site guys being more interested in sex than relationship. Ugh.
With many religions, it is easier to meet people at church activities, but being that Bahais only meet every so often, if that, it has to be difficult to meet a likeminded man. I do wish you the best.

 

[Trailblazer]

@Trailblazer

Why do you need to get married? From what you say you could employ someone to help out around the house maybe a couple of hours a day. You get companionship on your terms, you get work done for which you are paying so if the employee is not up to scratch then fire them and employ another. The only thing you'd be missing is the spiritual angle.

Just my thoughts.

When first widowed, I felt an urgent need to get married again, but I don't feel that way anymore. If someone comes along who shares my values and some of my interests and I am physically attracted and emotionally connected to him I might get married, but otherwise I will remain single.

Yes, I can hire out any work I need to have done, but I am not going to have the companionship and emotional support I had in marriage without being married and living with a man. That is not to mention the spiritual connection I had. I do not expect to ever have that again but I believe it is possible, as I believe in possibilities, and that whatever is fated to be will be.

 

[The Hammer]

If you're wanting a relationship, dating is the most efficient way to get to know someone and their behaviors in a low stakes environment, to decide whether or not you are compatible.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

There are a lot of toxic people on dating sites. Some dating sites themselves may also be toxic, due to not having the proper technology in place so as not to let their site overflow with scammers.

That's the only input I have on the subject in general, other than to say:

Sex should never be a duty. Sex should be highly enjoyable to both people.

I often see women valuing sex a bit less than men, seeing it as more an obstacle to achieving a great early relationship, rather than an asset. That's not to say women don't enjoy sex in general, just that sometimes, the timing and stuff has to be right.

So you're right it shouldn't be a duty. But things become difficult because men want it sooner than women, more often than you might suspect. And sometimes, some way, it can sometimes cause the relationship to hang in the balance.

 

[Subduction Zone]

When first widowed, I felt an urgent need to get married again, but I don't feel that way anymore. If someone comes along who shares my values and some of my interests and I am physically attracted and emotionally connected to him I might get married, but otherwise I will remain single.

Yes, I can hire out any work I need to have done, but I am not going to have the companionship and emotional support I had in marriage without being married and living with a man. That is not to mention the spiritual connection I had. I do not expect to ever have that again but I believe it is possible, as I believe in possibilities, and that whatever is fated to be will be.

Good. Don't just jump at the first man that waves a ring around at you. That would be likely to be a very unhappy time. I do wish you the best when it comes to this.

And don't be afraid to date as @The Hammer pointed out , it is a very good way to meet and get to know people. Dating does not have to mean sex. Find someone that you can eat a dinner with too start. And then maybe you can try to cook together. If someone is too pushy for sex just move on.

 

[Subduction Zone]

There are a lot of toxic people on dating sites. Some dating sites themselves may also be toxic, due to not having the proper technology in place so as not to let their site overflow with scammers.

That's the only input I have on the subject in general, other than to say:



I often see women valuing sex a bit less than men, seeing it as more an obstacle to achieving a great early relationship, rather than an asset. That's not to say women don't enjoy sex in general, just that sometimes, the timing and stuff has to be right.

So you're right it shouldn't be a duty. But things become difficult because men want it sooner than women, more often than you might suspect. And sometimes, some way, it can sometimes cause the relationship to hang in to balance.

Yes, generally men do seem to want sex more than women. It may be cultural, but it is what it is. And you are right about dating sites since too many men use them as shortcuts to sex. The dating world is rather complex and has drawbacks at times.

 

[Trailblazer]

It sounds as if you never had a fulfilling sex life.

No, that is not the case at all. I did have a good sex life but then I made a decision that I did not want to have sex anymore because I knew that my overemphasis on sex had intervened between me and God for many years. After I gave it up I never thought about it again except when people were discussing it on a forum. The idea of sex was just boring since I had found other things to do that were more interesting.

Sex should never be a duty. Sex should be highly enjoyable to both people. If only one partner wants sex then it is not very different from rape.

That's true, and I guess that is what that man was thinking.

And this is why premarital sex is a good thing. People can practice what should be a very important part of their life so that they can please both themselves and their partners.

I do not believe in premarital sex or consider it a necessity. I believe in OJT and it worked for me, after the training started.

It sounds as if your husband never pleased you sexually.

Not unless you consider multiple orgasms lasting for over an hour not pleasing. My husband was a nurse so he knew all about human anatomy and physiology.

I am not saying that you should go out and get have some sex with someone that you do not know very well, but it helps to understand why some feel the way that they do about sex. If this was due to your religious beliefs then your religion failed you in this aspect.

I do understand why people feel the way they do about sex. People enjoy physical pleasure. That is the long and the short of it so why pretend it is anything else? I was once one of them and I even attended SA for a short while.

Except for the Baha'i law about no sex out of wedlock, my attitude towards sex has nothing to do with my religious beliefs, it has to do with my personal experiences. For married Baha'is any kind of sex is permissible, and most Baha'is happily engage in sex.

'The Bahá'í Faith recognizes the value of the sex impulse, but condemns its illegitimate and improper expressions such as free love, companionate marriage and others, all of which it considers positively harmful to man and to the society in which he lives. The proper use of the sex instinct is the natural right of every individual, and it is precisely for this very purpose that the institution of marriage has been established. The Bahá'ís do not believe in the suppression of the sex impulse but in its regulation and control.'

Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File, pp. 364-365

 

[Trailblazer]

That is very frustrating. Friends say the same thing about dating site guys being more interested in sex than relationship. Ugh.
With many religions, it is easier to meet people at church activities, but being that Bahais only meet every so often, if that, it has to be difficult to meet a likeminded man. I do wish you the best.

It is near impossible to meet a Baha'i man. Even if there were Baha'i activities in the community, all the men in my age bracket are married. There are two Baha'i dating sites but most of the men on there are inactive. I wonder why they even have a profile. Even if I do message them I never get a reply and even those few men who reply are not compatible for some reason. All Baha'is are not married to Baha'is. I do not need to marry a Baha'i, I just need a man with similar values and interests and a compatible personality and lifestyle.

 

[Trailblazer]

If you're wanting a relationship, dating is the most efficient way to get to know someone and their behaviors in a low stakes environment, to decide whether or not you are compatible.

Yeah, I know, I just don't like it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, generally men do seem to want sex more than women. It may be cultural, but it is what it is.

That was not the case in my marriage. In fact, the marriage was almost annulled because I wanted sex and he did not. Later he jumped on the band wagon but I was always the initiator playing the dominant role.
Ah, the sordid details of my sex life, I could write a book!

 

[Ashoka]

Yeah, I know, I just don't like it.

You sound like you might be aroace (asexual/aromantic). Not wanting or like sex/romance is actually a lot more common than people realize. It's just our society pushes it on us so much.

 

[Trailblazer]

Dating sites have always seemed to me largely unreliable and often based on superficialities, because it's impossible to really decide whether someone is compatible with oneself from a brief biography, a few photos, and a meager collection of personal information that may or may not even be accurate.

No, it s not possible to really know someone from what is in a profile on a dating site, or even by conversing with them on the site. One needs to meet someone in person in order to get to know that person. However, dating sites can be a way to find someone you want to meet in person since there are a lot of people to choose from. The chances of meeting someone compatible in the real world is very unlikely unless one socializes a lot. I do not socialize in person so it is impossible for me to meet anyone that way.

That said, I think it's entirely possible, based on your description of what happened, that this man may indeed have not been interested in sex when he proposed living together. I have multiple friends who share his views on living with someone before marriage in order to know them closely—their hygiene, their daily habits, their sleep routine, and a multitude of other things that don't necessarily have anything to do with sex. Individually, some of them may seem insignificant, but they can add up and make a difference when committing to someone and living with them.

That is possible, but how many romantic couples are going to 'live together' for an expended period of tie without having sex?

Furthermore, I don't think this part necessarily means he was only interested in sex either:

It seems entirely possible that he simply recognized a different view on relationships and sex that is incompatible with his and therefore decided to pursue a relationship with a more suitable person for him. Nothing wrong with that, just as there's nothing wrong with your having your preferences and principles. I know that if I were looking for a partner and I found out they viewed sex as a marital "duty" rather than a form of bonding, I would immediately question whether we were compatible with each other.

It is also possible that he realized that we were not like-minded, and there is nothing wrong with that. Of course I cannot know what he was thinking since he did not say. He just cut off the communication so I came to my own conclusions.

I do not think sex should be a duty but I also don't believe it is necessary for bonding. Maybe it is when people are younger, but at my age I think other things are more important for bonding. When I first went on dating sites I was surprised to see that older men, in their late 60s and 70s, were still so interested in sex. I think there comes a time when people people should start thinking of the purpose of life and focus on that, but that's just me.

It's perfectly fine to have preferences, but I don't think we should assume others' intentions merely based on our own preferences and values or project them onto others' words and actions. Human psychology is too diverse for that to yield consistently fair, accurate, or reliable results.

I was not the one who was assuming that he would share my preferences, he was the one who was assuming I would share his. He even told me that after he met me he quit his membership on the dating site, and that was before he knew anything about me. He had only seen my photos and a few things on my profile.

 

[Trailblazer]

You sound like you might be aroace (asexual/aromantic). Not wanting or like sex/romance is actually a lot more common than people realize. It's just our society pushes it on us so much.

I was not always this way but I think this is the way I have become, and it is next to impossible to find a man who is like me.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I was not the one who was assuming that he would share my preferences, he was the one who was assuming I would share his. He even told me that after he met me he quit his membership on the dating site, and that was before he knew anything about me. He had only seen my photos and a few things on my profile.

Sometimes that happens on dating sites in general. Usually among people in their 20's-30's though. I think people tend to just develop a crush based on a person's pictures and profile, or based on early conversations.

But from the sound of it, it happened a bit faster than that even. Quitting before a couple of medium to long conversations sounds a bit much.

Honestly, and this may come off wrong - it sounds like you could be going to dating sites which happen to be populated with a lot of crazy people.

 

[Trailblazer]

But from the sound of it, it happened a bit faster than that even. Quitting before a couple of medium to long conversations sounds a bit much.

This has happened to me more than once. I don't know what the other women look like, but men, even those who are a lot younger than me, seem to find me attractive. I guess I should post the 'no sex before marriage' in my profile and that will eliminate the bulk of them. I know another Baha'i woman who did that and she said it worked.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

This has happened to me more than once. I don't know what the other women look like, but men, even those who are a lot younger than me, seem to find me attractive. I guess I should post the 'no sex before marriage' in my profile and that will eliminate the bulk of them. I know another Baha'i woman who did that and she said it worked.

You could try. I've also encountered men who don't read profiles. Some do, though.