Dating Preferences: Bigotry or a Right?

[Shadow Wolf]

I just feel that even if I was in a short-term non-committed relationship I would be turned off by being with someone who isn't accepting or wanting me.

I feel the same way. However, being expect to disclose upfront takes the power from my hands and puts it into someone else's. At the bare minimum, it should not be expected that we disclose upfront, but that we are able to disclose at our own discretion and on our own terms.

 

[Acim]

The emphasis on disclosure is interesting. I think I can see both sides of it (as I'm sure many can) and I lean toward one side (not having to disclose), but am not firm in that position. Pretty sure if it were me, I would disclose. But also pretty sure I would have peers all around me noting how my insistence on disclosure hasn't worked out so well, now has it?

IMO, the whole 'you must disclose' thing doesn't come up all that often for heterosexual mating. But it could. Some might say 'it should!' In my experience, it does not, and my personal experience has been to always disclose items about myself that relate to sexuality and long term commitment. I honestly cannot think of a relationship where that has worked out, but do realize I just haven't met the 'right person' yet. Great, so my desire to be as upfront and honest with people about 'who I am' when it comes to sexuality/dating has noticeably resulted in (put bluntly): no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, but hey maybe the right one is out there for you. Whereas I get to observe, constantly, the (heterosexual) people that withhold information are experiencing: yes, hell yes, for sure, let's have a family together, coveting others is fine/normal, it's cool that you sleep around and I don't know about it - you're still hot to me. So, sure that is honestly frustrating, but because sexual relations have gone way down on the desirability scale for me, I'm now fairly happy with the path I've been on. When caught up in the illusion, that eros love is the best of them all, it was frustrating. Glad I'm no longer (as) delusional.

To me, heterosexual mating/dating relies on a whole lot of assumptions of 'what is normal' and given rates of breakups and divorces, I think it is incredibly well known that there is no 'wonderful version of normal.' The wonderful version is fairytale stuff and extremely rare. Likely based on a different (more brotherly type of) love than on something resembling eros.

This notion that transgendered people 'just are different' doesn't fully jive with me. Every person is 'just different' and in reality, just different enough that if it were crystal clear to everyone (all the time) what they are actually like, I highly highly doubt long term commitment would be as popular of a notion as it currently is. I actually think it would be seen as undesirable, and am actually surprised it is not given all that we've collectively come to understand about mating.

With all that said, I do think disclosure has a viable point in all relationships. And question asked earlier on this thread has me wondering how a transgendered person might respond to situation where they are seeking transgendered person and person comes along trying to pass themselves off as transgendered, but then later it is discovered they are not. Would that be considered BFD to the transgendered person and thus say that disclosure must always occur, or would be it be seen as entirely their issue for having expectations on what romance/dating means to them, and not up to anyone else to answer directly to that when not asked in precisely the right way for another to respond 'honestly?'

I'd like to think that all transgendered persons on this thread, if asked directly about a question, such as "do you have a penis between your legs," would answer directly. But also would strongly prefer that this sort of question be asked in a caring manner and would say if it is not, and/or person responding feels it is not, then that alone could be grounds for not responding directly. Though, it wouldn't make sense to me to lie, but could be reasonable to say something along lines of, "I'd rather not respond to that question at this time." Withhold the information, but do not directly lie.

And to be clear, if not asked, then I think it is actually normal to not disclose.

 

[suncowiam]

you know... some women prefer dating men taller than them. some men prefer dating women shorter than them.

so now, we're all bigots because we're not attracted to everything with a beating heart?

 

[Buttercup]

you know... some women prefer dating men taller than them. some men prefer dating women shorter than them.
?

For the record, I have dated men both taller and shorter than me. I hereby absolve myself from this form of bigotry.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I think someone should tell someone else of who they are @MysticSang'ha and @Shadow Wolf . Would you rather have a partner who loves you for who you are or someone who might have a prejudice and you don't know about it? How is being with someone who dislikes part of you, but doesn't know this part of you, better than being upfront and finding someone who actually accept it? I really don't understand this line of thinking at all.

I was upfront with my husband about my orientation and it wasn't a problem for him. I'd much rather be married to someone who is ok about these things about me than not. Why be with someone who hates what you are? That makes ZERO sense. If he had a problem with it, I would know straight away he isn't someone I want to spend the rest of my life with. Heck even a dating potential, it would turn me off to know my date doesn't like people of my sexual/romantic orientation. It wouldn't be someone I'd want to be with.

To me, it seems like the fear of what reaction you might get is a reason to withhold the information, and having someone, regardless of how they truly feel about you is better than being alone. No thanks, I'll never subscribe to this line of thought. I don't feel dehumanised, I feel in control of who I date/have sex with/marry.

Good. That's your choice to disclose. But a requirement on your part? No ****ing way.

Remember who you're talking with. I'm not failing in the romance department here. I date both men and women in an open marriage that has lasted for nearly 15 years. I'm not naive about open communication and sexual empowerment. I'm quite happy with where I'm at and my love life.

And I stand by my comments that disclosure of my orientation is NOT a requirement, and it isn't a sign of respect for the other person that I should.

I've been with straight women before who have told me later on they were just curious about their orientation. As far as I'm concerned, it sucked that we weren't going to continue, but they didn't OWE me that before getting together. Its not like straight people, monogamous people, monosexual people, etc. keep parts of their lives private while seeking a partner that they bond with. Myself as a bisexual shouldn't be forced to out myself in this manner. And IMO more so for non-cis people.

Deciding to remain closeted or to live openly is a deeply personal decision, and should be respected as such.

Straight people keep parts of their lives closeted all the time.

I've slept with enough people to say with confidence that I wasn't born yesterday.

 

[suncowiam]

For the record, I have dated men both taller and shorter than me. I hereby absolve myself from this form of bigotry.

wait... you're still a bigot for shunning men of your own height. shame on you. =P

 

[Acim]

wait... you're still a bigot for shunning men of your own height. shame on you. =P

No, not a bigot. Just a preference. Like a preference to kill people who happen to have a different skin color than me. That can only be understood as a preference.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

And question asked earlier on this thread has me wondering how a transgendered person might respond to situation where they are seeking transgendered person and person comes along trying to pass themselves off as transgendered, but then later it is discovered they are not. Would that be considered BFD to the transgendered person and thus say that disclosure must always occur, or would be it be seen as entirely their issue for having expectations on what romance/dating means to them, and not up to anyone else to answer directly to that when not asked in precisely the right way for another to respond 'honestly?'

If someone is searching for someone who meets a specific criteria, and someone lies about meeting that criteria, then like anyone else individual responses will vary.
However, I can say that it is a point of great stress for transsexuals to consider when the right time to disclose is. A first date is not then. And people, regardless of sexual orientation and gender identity, do tend to keep things to themselves on the first date. About the second or third date, maybe. Relationships that last are built around honesty and communication. We get that. But nevertheless disclosure is something that should not be expected of us upfront, but like anyone else, is something that we should have control over. After all, it does involve our medical records that are confidential, and it does involve our lives. It's our decision to make, not society's.

Deciding to remain closeted or to live openly is a deeply personal decision, and should be respected as such.

Many transsexuals, especially MtF, are pretty much out in the open anyways. Being in "stealth," as it's called, is considered a rare privilege.

 

[Debater Slayer]

No, not a bigot. Just a preference. Like a preference to kill people who happen to have a different skin color than me. That can only be understood as a preference.

Wait... are you really comparing a preference regarding height to violent racism? I hope I'm misunderstanding you.

 

[Debater Slayer]

If someone is searching for someone who meets a specific criteria, and someone lies about meeting that criteria, then like anyone else individual responses will vary.
However, I can say that it is a point of great stress for transsexuals to consider when the right time to disclose is. A first date is not then. And people, regardless of sexual orientation and gender identity, do tend to keep things to themselves on the first date. About the second or third date, maybe. Relationships that last are built around honesty and communication. We get that. But nevertheless disclosure is something that should not be expected of us upfront, but like anyone else, is something that we should have control over. After all, it does involve our medical records that are confidential, and it does involve our lives. It's our decision to make, not society's.

I can definitely see where you're coming from here.

I have been mulling this subject over since I started this thread, and being that I'm also a member of a minority that is discriminated against and socially shunned where I'm from, albeit in different ways than what you're experiencing as a transgendered person, I have been thinking about different scenarios to help me understand this issue more and put myself in the shoes of transgendered people.

One scenario I have thought of is this: many people here explicitly refuse to be friends with atheists. Some, like my aunt, are openly hostile to them as well. Am I required to tell all of my friends who reject atheists that I'm an atheist so that I don't offend their sensibilities? Am I required to reveal my atheism to my aunt who hates atheists because she is unknowingly showing love and compassion for one of them? After all, I'm offending the majority's sensibilities by "forcing" them to socialize with and be friendly to a member of a minority that they just don't like.

Now, as far as romantic relationships go, yes, I would definitely reveal my atheism to any woman with whom I wanted to get into a long-term relationship, but that is more about making sure that we match each other than anything else, and I would expect her to tell me about her core beliefs as well because, for example, I wouldn't want to enter a long-term relationship with a homophobe or a sexist. If she has such views, that's her right, but I expect her to be honest to me just as I think I should be honest with her about my views so that we can fully figure out if we are suitable matches for each other.

But one-night stands, first dates, or even (non-romantic) friendships? No. I don't see the need to give a presentation about myself just to be treated like any other person.

 

[Tomorrows_Child]

In another thread, the issue of dating preferences came up, and some posts stated that a heterosexual man's refusal to date a transgendered person because the latter has a penis is transphobic. Since I'm open to reconsidering my positions in light of reasoned arguments, I would like to hear others' thoughts on this.

Is having dating preferences such as the above a form of bigotry or a right?

Please discuss.

Was the transgender person going from male to female or the other way? Just curious, probably doesn't play into the discussion lol

Ok, so, we all have preferences with regards to people we want to date and/or marry. That may be based on gender, ethnicity, religion, economics and so on. As long as that does not influence their view of that group of people in other aspects of life and does not automatically equate to them never even trying to befriend such a person or treat them like they would their own, then I see nothing wrong with it.

 

[Buttercup]

But one-night stands, first dates, or even (non-romantic) friendships? No. I don't see the need to give a presentation about myself just to be treated like any other person.

If you had a one night stand, which is generally defined as having casual sex with a relative stranger once and then never seeing them again, you wouldn't expect to know anything about that person's orientation? Because, I see you trying to equate that topic with your atheism and you're contradicting yourself from earlier posts. I'm just curious and am looking for clarification. Whatever you feel is, of course, your right.

 

[Debater Slayer]

If you had a one night stand, which is generally defined as having casual sex with a relative stranger once and then never seeing them again, you wouldn't expect to know anything about that person's orientation? Because, I see you trying to equate that topic with your atheism and you're contradicting yourself from earlier posts. I'm just curious and am looking for clarification. Whatever you feel is, of course, your right.

I'm merely posting a view for discussion. I'm very conflicted about this whole subject, to be honest, and I'm trying to consider it from different angles.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Was the transgender person going from male to female or the other way? Just curious, probably doesn't play into the discussion lol

Male to female, in the case of the discussion I was having with another member.

 

[Tomorrows_Child]

I'm merely posting a view for discussion. I'm very conflicted about this whole subject, to be honest, and I'm trying to consider it from different angles.

What are you confused about? Whether or not it's ok/not ok to have preferences with regards to physical attraction?

Would you personally be attracted to a trans person? If you found out of course. If you wouldn't do you feel guilty about that?

I don't think you should, the same way you wouldn't feel guilt being more attracted to a taller person than a shorter person (just an example).