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Dawkins Memes

Buttons*

Buttons*

Glass half Panda'd
Is there anyone who does/doesn't believe in these?

I may be alone, but I don't think they really exist. I'm more for Plato's forms than I am for ideas evolving in my head. Of course, it would be first important to identify what kind of "meme" I'm talking about.... but really, since there is hardly a steady definition for the damned thing, it gives me even more doubt that they exist.

So... I don't know everything obviously. I could be wrong, but the idea that every idea happens in my own head by some sort of thought evolution is just bizarre to me. I guess this is where I get pelted with atheistic olives.... *go*
 
Charity

Charity

Let's go racing boys !
The meme is entirely a speculative entity. Scientists has found no way to observe one or measure it, much less reproduce its likeness in a laboratory setting. It is a theory of cultural change but the existence has never been proven. Memetics in theory is a proto-science, or could be called pseudoscience..
Dawkins introduced the term meme, a name for a unit of cultural information. A meme being the equivalent in a world of ideas and culture to a gene in science...;)
 
Buttons*

Buttons*

Glass half Panda'd
Charity said:
The meme is entirely a speculative entity. Scientists has found no way to observe one or measure it, much less reproduce its likeness in a laboratory setting. It is a theory of cultural change but the existence has never been proven. Memetics in theory is a proto-science, or could be called pseudoscience..
Dawkins introduced the term meme, a name for a unit of cultural information. A meme being the equivalent in a world of ideas and culture to a gene in science...;)
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Yeah, that makes a lot more sense. I still think the idea is sort of crap on its own. I can't imagine that the only way to see the world is through a lens of evolution in EVERY aspect.
 
Charity

Charity

Let's go racing boys !
Buttons* said:
Yeah, that makes a lot more sense. I still think the idea is sort of crap on its own. I can't imagine that the only way to see the world is through a lens of evolution in EVERY aspect.
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Dawkins suggests that it may be to the benefit of only the religious ideas themselves, in the extent that they act in a gene like way, as replicators. Religious ideas, because they are memes, which according to Dawkins theory are cultural analogues of biological genes.....:shrug:
 
N

Nepenthe

Tu Stultus Es
I'd suggest checking out Susan Blackmore's writings on memes; they're an excellent introduction to memetics.

Memes are essentially how natural selection impacts cultural evolution through replication. There's no specific "thing" to measure or record, no ADTP meme strand to capture in crystallography or anything. But memes are genetic in that culture is the artifact of evolution- from our behaviors, politics, gender identities, etc., etc. Yes, it's intimately linked to that other proto (perhaps pseudoscience) sociobiology or evolutionary psych', but they're both amazing fields.

And yes, I think the idea is useful, but no, I'm not 100% convinced of either.
 
McBell

McBell

Unbound
Guitar's Cry said:
What does Dawkins suggest about memes?
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The word meme originated in Dawkins' 1976 book The Selfish Gene. To emphasize commonality with genes, Dawkins coined the term "meme" by shortening "mimeme", which derives from the Greek word mimema[5] Dawkins wrote that evolution depended not on the particular chemical basis of genetics, but only on the existence of a self-replicating unit of transmission — in the case of biological evolution, the gene. For Dawkins, the meme exemplified another self-replicating unit with significance in explaining human behavior and cultural evolution. (something imitated).


Dawkins used the term to refer to any cultural entity that an observer might consider a replicator. He hypothesised that one could view many cultural entities as replicators, and pointed to melodies, fashions and learned skills as examples. Memes generally replicate through exposure to humans, who have evolved as efficient copiers of information and behaviour. Because humans do not always copy memes perfectly, and because they may refine, combine or otherwise modify them with other memes to create new memes, they can change over time. Dawkins likened the process by which memes survive and change through the evolution of culture to the natural selection of genes in biological evolution.[3]


Dawkins defined the meme as a unit of cultural transmission, or a unit of imitation, but later definitions would vary. The lack of a consistent, rigorous, and precise understanding of what typically makes up one unit of cultural transmission remains a problem in debates about memetics.[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme#cite_note-machine-5
Source

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invisible chzbrgr

invisible chzbrgr

Member
So it may not be a fully scientific term. As a layperson I find it extremely interesting and even helpful.

A meme can take many forms. It can be a religion or worldview, a habit or custom (as in Blackmore's example of the toilet paper!), or something like LOLcats/LOLspeak.

In my unsophisticated understanding of meme, I can use it to describe a bundle of ideas, or one idea, which transmits from person to person or group to group, with modifications which may enhance its survivability or cause its extinction. And, you know what I'm talking about when I use the word.

A perfect parallel with biological evolution? Probably not. Variations or mutations in DNA are the result of chance; ideas need some help, which may be conscious or unconscious within a culture or between cultures.

My thoughts late at night... :snoopy:
 
Buttons*

Buttons*

Glass half Panda'd
Charity said:
Dawkins suggests that it may be to the benefit of only the religious ideas themselves, in the extent that they act in a gene like way, as replicators. Religious ideas, because they are memes, which according to Dawkins theory are cultural analogues of biological genes.....:shrug:
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...... right.....

Religious ideas replicate themselves? I doubt it... Even if they are replicated through people's converting, that is a totally different kettle of fish than some evolving "meme" that reproduces virally in other people. If it were the case, people would all think the same about things.

Thoughts and genes have nothing to do with each other. Culture has nothing to do with genetics. I guess it's sort of useful to be able to talk about ideas that spread like wildfire... but to compare them to something like an evolving virus makes 0 sense to me.
 
Buttons*

Buttons*

Glass half Panda'd
invisible chzbrgr said:
So it may not be a fully scientific term. As a layperson I find it extremely interesting and even helpful.

A meme can take many forms. It can be a religion or worldview, a habit or custom (as in Blackmore's example of the toilet paper!), or something like LOLcats/LOLspeak.
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So, we could call them something else... because even if these ideas are widespread, they dont' have the same quality as a gene. Thoughts and genes are not even remotely the same thing - in my opinion. like: worldview, cultural custom, and popular culture. They dont' really require a special word to lump all these COMPLETELY different ideas into one "gene-like" phenomenon.

In my unsophisticated understanding of meme, I can use it to describe a bundle of ideas, or one idea, which transmits from person to person or group to group, with modifications which may enhance its survivability or cause its extinction. And, you know what I'm talking about when I use the word.

A perfect parallel with biological evolution? Probably not. Variations or mutations in DNA are the result of chance; ideas need some help, which may be conscious or unconscious within a culture or between cultures.

My thoughts late at night... :snoopy:
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Actually, I had NO idea what a meme was until three weeks ago, and still I can't wrap my mind around it. lol. I just don't see how it works.... But I agree with you on your last point: that ideas need help, and aren't the direct result of chance. No one would really be able to "get" others ideas if we didn't have similar senses of humor, and were able to process it ourselves. The thing is, some thoughts/ideas/culture things don't make sense to everyone - it's not that these things always spread to everyone. For instance, no matter how many times we transfer the idea of a lolcat to my mother, she ain't gonna understand it.
 
Guitar's Cry

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
I would agree that certain characteristics tend to show up in human cultures; I'm certainly aware of the power of archetypes. Human cultures may have differing worldviews and symbols, but they still appear to experience many similar traits to each other. Thus, the Human Condition.

I'm actually something of a fan of Hegel, who also used a kind of biological outlook when looking at the history of philosophical development (through his process of thesis to antithesis to synthesis). This seems to relate at least in the view of human culture as something organic.

However, Dawkin's idea seems contrived. But I'm not well-versed in this.
 
The Duke of Vandals

The Duke of Vandals

Member
I just posted a thread explaining about memes and how they're the key to understanding why people believe what they believe. Please read the opening post of the thread carefully, as there still seems to be a lot of confusion about this. The FAQ I wrote helps clear things up.

EDIT: "You are only allowed to post URLs to other sites after you have made 15 posts or more."

LOL apparently, I can't link to the thread I made here in this forum. So, the thread is titled "Memes: The Key to Understanding Religion "
 
Yerda

Yerda

Veteran Member
Buttons* said:
...... right.....

Religious ideas replicate themselves? I doubt it... Even if they are replicated through people's converting, that is a totally different kettle of fish than some evolving "meme" that reproduces virally in other people.
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In what way, Ash?

Buttons said:
If it were the case, people would all think the same about things.
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I'm not sure that would be the case. All ecosystems don't hold the same genes.
 
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