Deadbeat Dads

[MysticSang'ha]

My best friend just broke up with a guy that tried to that to her.

Same thing happened to me. My ex admitted that was exactly what he was trying to do because he knew I wanted out.

 

[kai]

I know. it's irritating to hear "it's all about the money" "you trapped him into it by getting pregnant"

Well who's to say he didn't trap her. Get her pregnant so she can't leave

?

Women are capable of doing that to. people are people, not many of us are lucky enough to find a "good one" first time round. My youngest daughter has about 20 kids in her class at school and not many of them have parents that actually live together.

Often a baby is the last thing on both peoples mind when sex is involved, and often people have unprotected sex with people they hardly know. I know men that have avoided all contact with kids and i know women who haven't even bothered to tell the fathers they are fathers, mainly due to "one night stands" involving alcohol.

Kids in broken relationships are very often caught in the crossfire between two people who end up for whatever reason,hating each other. Its wrong but that's just the way it is, i don't think anything is going to change that.

 

[Rakhel]

Women are capable of doing that to. people are people, not many of us are lucky enough to find a "good one" first time round. My youngest daughter has about 20 kids in her class at school and not many of them have parents that actually live together.

I never said women didn't do that. I said men do it too.

Often a baby is the last thing on both peoples mind when sex is involved, and often people have unprotected sex with people they hardly know.

Guilty

I know men that have avoided all contact with kids and i know women who haven't even bothered to tell the fathers they are fathers, mainly due to "one night stands" involving alcohol.

I stand guilty of this as well. Not because I was drunk, though sometimes I wish I had been during those months. My second child's father thought the baby died in child birth. He doesn't know she exists and she will never know his name.
Judge if you will. But I did it to save her life.

Kids in broken relationships are very often caught in the crossfire between two people who end up for whatever reason,hating each other. Its wrong but that's just the way it is, i don't think anything is going to change that.

well said.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Women are capable of doing that to. people are people, not many of us are lucky enough to find a "good one" first time round. My youngest daughter has about 20 kids in her class at school and not many of them have parents that actually live together.

Often a baby is the last thing on both peoples mind when sex is involved, and often people have unprotected sex with people they hardly know. I know men that have avoided all contact with kids and i know women who haven't even bothered to tell the fathers they are fathers, mainly due to "one night stands" involving alcohol.

Kids in broken relationships are very often caught in the crossfire between two people who end up for whatever reason,hating each other. Its wrong but that's just the way it is, i don't think anything is going to change that.

I agree wholeheartedly. It's the kids that suffer the most out of these situations.

 

[Mathematician]

And yet we're debating about scenarios where certain women are encouraging poisonous relationships with the child. If the father does not want the baby, obviously seeking out financial aid for a personal decision is going to lead to a troubled time for the child. The reverse is true as well: when a mother wants to give away a child for adoption, the father can extend his decision to impact her financial well-being, which really calls into question any remarks made in this thread about my position solely benefiting men. It doesn't. I'm just as much against that situation coming into fruition. Whether the foster care system sucks or not is a separate issue that is really not all too hard to solve.

I don't really understand the point of some of your posts in this thread, Mystic, other than to sow discontent towards those who hold views that go against mainstream feminism. None of the users in this thread who proposed alternatives to the current system made any sexist remarks. We don't think women are any less benevolent. There's a popular female user on Youtube called girlwhiteswhat who holds the same beliefs I have. Is she sexist?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Glad you're back, Eugene, because I asked a question a while back that I think may have gotten lost in the pages of posts since then:

So... just so we're clear: you really are arguing that it's unreasonable for a woman not to have an abortion when the father doesn't want the child?

I really would like a direct answer to this question.

 

[Draka]

Also, I think it worth pointing out that there is a difference between a man who just doesn't want to own up to his responsibilities and is a cheap louse and a man who is violently abusive is probably better off being kept away from said child in the first place. The first can step up and be a man and a parent. The second is probably just better off not even knowing he is one for the sake of the safety of the child and the mother.

 

[Mathematician]

Sorry, I'm trying not to quote bomb.

Glad you're back, Eugene, because I asked a question a while back that I think may have gotten lost in the pages of posts since then:



I really would like a direct answer to this question.

No, I think it's only unreasonable to carry through with parenthood if the woman or man can't emotionally and financially support the child as an independent parent, or can't do so even with the assistance of social programs. She still has the right to make whatever choice she wants, but whenever I tune into shows like "Teen Mom" periodically to massacre my spirit I usually see this dispute boil turn into a dispute between the male and female. Regardless of what the girl's intentions were, making an unpopular decision on behalf of someone else will almost always lead to bad results.

Even under the current model it's irresponsible because you can't rely on the government procuring that money out of his or her wallet on a regular basis. Again I'm not talking about married couples or situations where the man initially wanted a child and backed out. I'm talking about one-night stands, new relationships, etc. - especially where it was explicit that abortion or adoption would be sought.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, I think it's only unreasonable to carry through with parenthood if the woman or man can't emotionally and financially support the child as an independent parent, or can't do so even with the assistance of social programs.

So in a legal environment where the father is required to pay for half of the child's cost, the decision is reasonable?

She still has the right to make whatever choice she wants, but whenever I tune into shows like "Teen Mom" periodically to massacre my spirit I usually see this dispute boil turn into a dispute between the male and female. Regardless of what the girl's intentions were, making an unpopular decision on behalf of someone else will almost always lead to bad results.

I hope you realize the folly in using a TV show where the subject matter and the people featured have been chosen for their shock value as the basis for conclusions about people generally.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You edited your post while I was replying.

Even under the current model it's irresponsible because you can't rely on the government procuring that money out of his or her wallet on a regular basis. Again I'm not talking about married couples or situations where the man initially wanted a child and backed out. I'm talking about one-night stands, new relationships, etc. - especially where it was explicit that abortion or adoption would be sought.

So once a woman consents to an abortion, she doesn't have the right to change her mind?

This immediately brings to mind another mistaken notion.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Gene - a hypothetical situation for you:

You and I own a business together. It's housed in a building that you own by yourself - you are our business' landlord, basically.

You decide that you want to knock your building down and build condos. Our business now needs another home. We find one, but the rent is more than what you were charging.

Would I be justified in saying that under this new arrangement, my share of the rent shouldn't be any more than what I was paying before, and you should responsible for the entire difference? After all, you made a unilateral decision that created extra costs for me without my consent.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

And yet we're debating about scenarios where certain women are encouraging poisonous relationships with the child. If the father does not want the baby, obviously seeking out financial aid for a personal decision is going to lead to a troubled time for the child. The reverse is true as well: when a mother wants to give away a child for adoption, the father can extend his decision to impact her financial well-being, which really calls into question any remarks made in this thread about my position solely benefiting men. It doesn't. I'm just as much against that situation coming into fruition. Whether the foster care system sucks or not is a separate issue that is really not all too hard to solve.

I don't really understand the point of some of your posts in this thread, Mystic, other than to sow discontent towards those who hold views that go against mainstream feminism. None of the users in this thread who proposed alternatives to the current system made any sexist remarks. We don't think women are any less benevolent. There's a popular female user on Youtube called girlwhiteswhat who holds the same beliefs I have. Is she sexist?

Short answer, you and I disagree on gender issues, Gene. Let's not make this more than what it is.

The OP quoted from a scenario regarding fathers who are called deadbeats, are threatened by the mother to pay child support, and who call in to the show saying they're buying diapers here or sending money there. You introduced a tangent concerning men who don't even want to be fathers, argued that such scenarios victimize men completely with women as the instigators, and then provided your own statistics suggesting that when it comes to child support women have less moral standing than men do.

As far as I can tell, Gene, the only one who is sowing seeds of discontent toward a specific gender is you. I'm countering your misogynistic arguments with sarcasm, which ticks some people off, but it strikes a nerve certainly. Maybe I'm wrong. I've been wrong before.

You do have a unique position, not just regarding mainstream feminism, but any form of feminism AFAIK, and I certainly do not advocate for silencing you (in fact I've said before that I applaud your guts for coming into the lion's den with your arguments). But I don't give any credibility to complaints about members calling your arguments sexist. I think they are. You probably think mine are too against men (funny, the men in my family have never mentioned anything close to that).

Now that we got that on the table, can we go back to the arguments from the OP rather than insinuating anything personal about my intentions?

 

[4consideration]

(Takes a deep breathe)

If anyone cared to read the subject I spoke heavily on the subject in relation to Gabby Douglas and her calling her father a deadbeat dad....You might want to read the first post.

I read the OP and I also read your post that I was replying to.

If you did not understand my post, or if you understood my post and do not wish to reply to it, that's okay. I'm not inclined to repeat myself. We can leave it at that.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't really understand the point of some of your posts in this thread, Mystic, other than to sow discontent towards those who hold views that go against mainstream feminism. None of the users in this thread who proposed alternatives to the current system made any sexist remarks. We don't think women are any less benevolent. There's a popular female user on Youtube called girlwhiteswhat who holds the same beliefs I have. Is she sexist?

I don't understand why you just cannot admit that because having sex may result in pregnancy, that because BOTH PEOPLE decided to have sex, that it should be BOTH PARENTS who bear responsibility.

but whenever I tune into shows like "Teen Mom" periodically to massacre my spirit I usually see this dispute boil turn into a dispute between the male and female.

Why on earth would you let a TV show influence your opinion? They can call it real all they want, but any reality tv show will only show the most exciting, most revolting, most shocking, and most likely to get people's attention. When they done a reality TV show about a Muslim family, it turned out that it was just too real, which is too boring for TV so the show was canceled.

 

[Mr. Skittles]

(Takes Deep Breathe)

My true intent was too discuss the radio podcast regarding the discussion of Gabby Douglas and her assertion that her dad, a soldier fighting for my country was called a "deadbeat dad." I also made subsequent examples from the male callers regarding their own situation. Now I did/do sympathize with men who are active in their children's lives so knowing this, this begs the question:

What is a deadbeat dad?

Is it a man who breaks up with his girlfriend and totally discontinue contact with her and his child(ren)?

Is it a man who just pays child support but doesn't visit his child?

According to the judicial system being an inactive dad is punishable through wage garnishment andor jail time and the suspension of licenses (driving etc). On a social level as experienced by some men, some are punished not as deadbeats, but because of domestic issues between the parents and in a lot of cases women punish men threatening them with using the court for child support. That is not to say there aren't real deadbeats but we have to discuss the other side of the spectrum.

So in the case of Gabby Douglas' father who reportedly wanted joint custody and didnt want to pay alimony, why is he a deadbeat? From the reports lyekis mentioned, this man flew to london to see her. A true deadbeat dad would not be that proactive in his kids life.

So the question is still in the air. As a man and a future father I hate to live in a judicial system in which with respect to domestic issues it favors one gender over the other. I believe our courts need to stop looking at statistics and start looking at individual cases. I see so many resources that help women, but see very little that helps men. In addition while we here in this thread discuss such issues my female counterpart to not be frustrated at the male responses here, but should listen to constructive criticisms.

Because to be honest female members here sending me PM's calling me misogynistic is quite rude and defeats the purpose of a healthy discussion. Instead of regaeding with emotion perhaps reading with the two eyes your born with would help. I do believe that anytime women are criticized men are immediately labeled misogynistic which to me, is a cop out and an avoidance tactic to a debate.

 

[Reverend Rick]

But it doesn't add up. The only way that this could happen in a way that makes sense is if the mothers were legally entitled to money from the fathers, but chose not to exercise that right until the fathers did something to **** the mothers off.

The fathers still don't come out looking good in this. What it means is that up to that point, the child hasn't been getting the resources he's been entitled to because the father hasn't volunteered his share and the mother hasn't pushed the issue.

Jeff, think of it this way, you give the woman all your money and she blows it on anything but what the children need vs the man took the children shopping and bought them school clothes and caught up the mothers rent. After dropping the well cared for children at the mothers house, you go out and hook up with a super model and the mother takes you to court to get more money.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

(Takes Deep Breathe)

My true intent was too discuss the radio podcast regarding the discussion of Gabby Douglas and her assertion that her dad, a soldier fighting for my country was called a "deadbeat dad." I also made subsequent examples from the male callers regarding their own situation. Now I did/do sympathize with men who are active in their children's lives so knowing this, this begs the question:

What is a deadbeat dad?

Is it a man who breaks up with his girlfriend and totally discontinue contact with her and his child(ren)?

Is it a man who just pays child support but doesn't visit his child?

According to the judicial system being an inactive dad is punishable through wage garnishment andor jail time and the suspension of licenses (driving etc). On a social level as experienced by some men, some are punished not as deadbeats, but because of domestic issues between the parents and in a lot of cases women punish men threatening them with using the court for child support. That is not to say there aren't real deadbeats but we have to discuss the other side of the spectrum.

So in the case of Gabby Douglas' father who reportedly wanted joint custody and didnt want to pay alimony, why is he a deadbeat? From the reports lyekis mentioned, this man flew to london to see her. A true deadbeat dad would not be that proactive in his kids life.

So the question is still in the air. As a man and a future father I hate to live in a judicial system in which with respect to domestic issues it favors one gender over the other. I believe our courts need to stop looking at statistics and start looking at individual cases. I see so many resources that help women, but see very little that helps men. In addition while we here in this thread discuss such issues my female counterpart to not be frustrated at the male responses here, but should listen to constructive criticisms.

Because to be honest female members here sending me PM's calling me misogynistic is quite rude and defeats the purpose of a healthy discussion. Instead of regaeding with emotion perhaps reading with the two eyes your born with would help. I do believe that anytime women are criticized men are immediately labeled misogynistic which to me, is a cop out and an avoidance tactic to a debate.

I appreciate the intent to have a healthy discussion, Skittles. I do too.

I offered my story where our children were severely neglected by their father. Other moms shared their stories too. We gave real life examples of deadbeat dads. Name calling doesn't go anywhere, but neither does ignoring or glossing over what we have gone through for many years.

So start there.