Dear Islam, about Mohammed???

[savethedreams]

To begin I am a seeker of Truth and I question until I makes sense before I even consider it accurate then way before I believe and that a long shot before I respect.

To begin, I am anti-violent...

1.) I have heard that Mohammed was leader in military and he has killed before even to defend his religion. How is this justified? Has Mohammed killed, or supported a killing? In his Koran he has given 'how to fight in a war' . is quite scary for someone to be a 'prophet'. iF i SAY god is non-violent, would I be going against the Koran?

2.) How did Mohammed prove he was a prophet, as a researcher I DO NOT GO to false Muslim haters for information as it would be bias, so How did Mohammed prove he wasn't delusional and that the angel Gabriel did indeed was from him? Now I saw a video on 'The Deen show' and they were discussing this, and of course just because he didn't do it for money, power, women doesn't mean he wasn't delusional.

3.) Christ said (I'm not a christian) , that he was the last, and then Mohammed came, does this not sounds iffy? Now, some say the Bible has been changed and corrupted? Well we live in 2011 AD and the dead sea scrolls date back over thousand years, so the NT being corrupted is less then likely. So, if the NT has NOT been corrupted and Muslims cant prove it, why say it?

I'm only questioning.

 

[ppɐʇɹnɯ]

If I can put in my opinion as a person who studied Islam, all organized religions in the end are basically about politics. Islam was created by Mohammed so he could become the leader of the Arabs and unify them by force. He claimed he was inspired by Allah (aka the moon god of Pagan Arab times) and the god of Mohammed's tribe, and made Allah the "only god". Naturally if you are going to become the leader of society, you need to have military might, hence why the Quran sanctions using violence.

 

[Krang]

Have you read the Qu'ran? There's also the Sunnah and Hadith for more information.

There's different views about violence in Islam and the Qu'ran, even between Muslims.

As for proving one is a prophet though, I often wonder the same for those who follow Jesus, Moses and Joseph Smith. It's all a matter of faith.

 

[kai]

MOD POST
Members are reminded this is the Islam DIR​

 

[savethedreams]

MOD POST
Members are reminded this is the Islam DIR​

Thank you sir, even though I doubt I'll get me answer. (sad face)

 

[A-ManESL]

The basic understanding of Islam does not differentiate between good and bad (Quran 4:78) in the superficial sense that you are doing. The real purpose is to come near to God and the rest is temporal. (In Sufi terms this is said so: when the lover has his eyes fixed on the beloved, how does the scenery matter). The reason that a person is adjoined towards righteousness is essentially for that naughts egoish desires in him and keeps him on the straight path towards God.

Islam and Christianity take two different approaches towards the Absolute and in the Islamic sense, the way of life is such that natural Unity between all spheres of life is propounded. (whereas in the Christian way the spiritual is separated from the worldly).

Secondly Islam does not claim to be a distinct religion at all in the modern sense. Nor does it hold that it is asking people to worship a God which is different from God as worshiped by people of other religion. You will possibly be surprised if I tell you that the Canadian scholar W.C.Smith argued that the prophet Muhammad would have been, above all others perhaps, profoundly alarmed at any suggestion that he was starting a new religion.

Essentially Islam is about achieving harmony between all aspects of life and Prophet Muhammad's life was an example of that. Struggle both internal and external was exhibited by him for both are aspects of life. Yes, he fought wars but with the intention of righteousness and even his causing enemies to be killed in war was out of love for them. This is not uncommon if you study other religions which adopted similar approaches towards the Absolute. SriKrishna and SriRam both faught wars and are worshipped in Hinduism. The basic understanding is that the action itself is worthless, its true worth is determined by the intentions that govern it. One of the greatest proponents of non-violence, Mahatma Gandhi studied Islam in great detail and concluded that it was essentially a way of love. You can possibly quotations by him about Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)/Islam if you search online.

Also corruption does not necessarily mean that it is literal, it may be in interpretation. This is not clarified in the Quran and there are some scholars who hold differing opinions on what type of corruption has happened in the Bible. And the fact that Jesus(on whom may be peace) said that he is the last is your opinion and not held by the Muslims.

Regards

 

[savethedreams]

The basic understanding of Islam does not differentiate between good and bad (Quran 4:78) in the superficial sense that you are doing. The real purpose is to come near to God and the rest is temporal. (In Sufi terms this is said so: when the lover has his eyes fixed on the beloved, how does the scenery matter). The reason that a person is adjoined towards righteousness is essentially for that naughts egoish desires in him and keeps him on the straight path towards God.

Islam and Christianity take two different approaches towards the Absolute and in the Islamic sense, the way of life is such that natural Unity between all spheres of life is propounded. (whereas in the Christian way the spiritual is separated from the worldly).

Secondly Islam does not claim to be a distinct religion at all in the modern sense. Nor does it hold that it is asking people to worship a God which is different from God as worshiped by people of other religion. You will possibly be surprised if I tell you that the Canadian scholar W.C.Smith argued that the prophet Muhammad would have been, above all others perhaps, profoundly alarmed at any suggestion that he was starting a new religion.

Essentially Islam is about achieving harmony between all aspects of life and Prophet Muhammad's life was an example of that. Struggle both internal and external was exhibited by him for both are aspects of life. Yes, he fought wars but with the intention of righteousness and even his causing enemies to be killed in war was out of love for them. This is not uncommon if you study other religions which adopted similar approaches towards the Absolute. SriKrishna and SriRam both faught wars and are worshipped in Hinduism. The basic understanding is that the action itself is worthless, its true worth is determined by the intentions that govern it. One of the greatest proponents of non-violence, Mahatma Gandhi studied Islam in great detail and concluded that it was essentially a way of love. You can possibly quotations by him about Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)/Islam if you search online.

Also corruption does not necessarily mean that it is literal, it may be in interpretation. This is not clarified in the Quran and there are some scholars who hold differing opinions on what type of corruption has happened in the Bible. And the fact that Jesus(on whom may be peace) said that he is the last is your opinion and not held by the Muslims.

Regards

So why should someone convert to Islam, if they are a Jew.... there not going to do anything different? isn't jews (nonbelievers) who will suffer in hell?

 

[A-ManESL]

So why should someone convert to Islam, if they are a Jew.... there not going to do anything different? isn't jews (nonbelievers) who will suffer in hell?

No. All who work righteousness willl be rewarded. In fact regarding Jews Prophet Muhammad said that the Jewish tribes were "one community with the believers," but they "have their religion and the Muslims have theirs". (Jonathan Berkey, The Formation of Islam: Religion and Society in the Near East, 600-1800, Cambridge University Press, p.64)

The Quran never asks true followers of other faiths to give up their former religions, and in fact never brought about a new religion at all.

("Verily, they who believe (Muslims) and they who follow the Jewish religion, and the Christians, and the Sabaeana - whosoever believeth in God and the last day, and doeth that which is right, shall have their reward with their Lord : fear shall not come upon them, neither shall they grieve.2:62".

Throughout the Quran the message is always to ask people to discard wrong doings and turn towards God. According to it, if they did so and returned to the original teachings of whatever religion they were following they would have found that it was the same Islam to which Muhammad (pbuh) was calling them too. Din or the real religion of God is devotion to God and righteous living. Whatever be the race or community or country one belonged to, if only he believed in God and did righteous deeds, he was a follower of the Din of God, and salvation was his reward.The Quran condemns the Jews and Christians of Prophet Muhammad's time who had divided themselves into groups on the basis of religion and had devised codes of conduct exclusive to themselves. Such people had relegated the concept of faith and righteousness in the background by devising and splitting up into "religions". This defeated the purpose itself in a sense. For example a person who was good and an ardent devotee of God, if he was not a Christian was thus considered outside the circle of the ones being saved by the Christians, and on the other hand even if he was wicked though professed to be a Christian could still hope for salvation in the end. This groupism was rejected by the Quran which had a message for all humanity: Be good and turn towards God and you will be rewarded.

"Others of the people of the Book say : "And believe in those only who follow your religion." (But you) Say: "True guidance is guidance from God'- that to others may be
imparted the like of what hath been imparted to you. Will they wrangle then with you in the presence of their Lord ? Say : "Plenteous gifts are in the hands of God. He imparteth
them unto whom He will, and God is bounteous, wise."-3:73-4

"Moreover the Jews say, "The Christians lean on nought". "On nought lean the Jews", say the Christians. Yet both read the Scripture. So with like words say they who have no
knowledge (of the Scripture). But on the day of requital, God shall judge between them as to that in which they differ."-2-113

So, in effect the Islamic way of life is not unique externally, internally however, since it is just the way of recognizing the metaphysical Reality and coming in tune with It, it is unique.

Finally, note that the above view is not originally mine, but has been developed by Sufi Saints (Hazrat Nizamuddin Awliya, Mazhar Jan-i-Janan, Shah Waliullah) and Islamic scholars such as Mawlana Abul Kalam Azad. It is known in the literature as wahdat-e-deen (Unity of Religions)

Regards

 

[islam means peace]

1.) I have heard that Mohammed was leader in military and he has killed before even to defend his religion. How is this justified? Has Mohammed killed, or supported a killing? In his Koran he has given 'how to fight in a war' . is quite scary for someone to be a 'prophet'. iF i SAY god is non-violent, would I be going against the Koran?

Prophet Muhammad salalahualiwasalm was the goverment and military leader but they never killed nor ordered or teaches his followers to kill innocnet people, even Islam does not allow to destory the trees or perperty of innocent civilians in wars.

Some times its necessary to punish few poeple who just create mis-cheaf in land and harming and killing innocnet person , then Islam allow us to finght with those to reveal peace

Quran says in Surah 60 , Verses

8. Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly andjustly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.

9. Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) indriving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). Itis such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.

Tell, me what you do if somebody try to destroy your house, want to kill you and your family, surely you will fight to defend you and your family. So what wrong you see if Islam allow us to defend our self.

killling innocent being (irrespective of muslim or non muslim) is one of the biggest sin in Islam. killing one innocent is just like you killed whole of humanity.

Quran says in Surah 5 verse 32

"On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreadingmischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and ifany one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the wholepeople. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs,yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in theland.


Hopefully , these verses of the Quran clarifies you to whom we should fight and whom we cannot. and dont pay attention to those people who just quotes thing out of context and some time wrong text and try to say that Islam allow to kill non muslim. Islam does not allow to kill innocent peropler whether muslim or non muslim , and treat them well and good.

How did Mohammed prove he was a prophet, as a researcher I DO NOT GO to false Muslim haters for information as it would be bias, so How did Mohammed prove he wasn't delusional and that the angel Gabriel did indeed was from him? Now I saw a video on 'The Deen show' and they were discussing this, and of course just because he didn't do it for money, power, women doesn't mean he wasn't delusional.

I am not a scholar so cannot give you scholarical answers but try to give you answers.

First of all a Prophet is Prophet by birth , no men can become Prophet by his own efforts. One thing you might not know that people already know that a Prophet will came and they have to follow him but still they denie.

Quran says that they know that Muhammad Salalahualiwasalm was true Prophet , and know they just like a peron know his son , still just they denie for their wordly benefits.

Even if somebody have doubt about Quran, Quran clearly channllenge peoople to take any body you want except Allah and just write a single Surat just like a Holy Quran.

3.) Christ said (I'm not a christian) , that he was the last, and then Mohammed came, does this not sounds iffy? Now, some say the Bible has been changed and corrupted? Well we live in 2011 AD and the dead sea scrolls date back over thousand years, so the NT being corrupted is less then likely. So, if the NT has NOT been corrupted and Muslims cant prove it, why say it?

Some parts might be still in its original form but the prove of corruptions is there Like for Muslims Quran clearly stated that people had made changes in it but for other people you will find many Contradictions, scientific mistakes etc. If you open bibble (what I know) you will find a red letter bibble , red letter means these words are saying of Prophet Eisa alisalam (according to christian scholars) the rest is not. That clearly prove that Bibble might contain words of Prophet, It might contain words of the people of those time and after their time and some Christian scholars.

We Muslim believe that original scripture revealed of Prophet Eisa alisalm is pure and completely true.

Quran says in SURAH 3
84: Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes,and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from theirLord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allahdo we bow our will (in Islam)."

 

[A Thousand Suns]

1.) I have heard that Mohammed was leader in military and he has killed before even to defend his religion. How is this justified? Has Mohammed killed, or supported a killing? In his Koran he has given 'how to fight in a war' . is quite scary for someone to be a 'prophet'. iF i SAY god is non-violent, would I be going against the Koran?

Its completely wrong , whoever tells you these things ask them for evidence , and the links below gives the detail account on the Life Of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)

The Life of Prophet Muhammad (In Makkah)

The Life of Prophet Muhammad In Al-Madinah


And in the In the Quran Fighting is allowed strictly in self-defense, while aggression and oppression are strongly condemned throughout the Quran.

[4:75]"And why should you not fight in the cause of God and the weak and oppressed among men, women and children who say, "Our Lord rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors. And give us from You, a protector. And give us from You, a helper"

[17:33] You shall not kill any person - for GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. If one is killed unjustly, then we give his heir authority to enforce justice. Thus, he shall not exceed the limits in avenging the murder; he will be helped.

[25:68] They never implore beside GOD any other god, nor do they kill anyone - for GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. Nor do they commit adultery. Those who commit these offenses will have to pay.

[7:28] They commit a gross sin, then say, "We found our parents doing this, and GOD has commanded us to do it." Say, "GOD never advocates sin. Are you saying about GOD what you do not know?"

[5:87] O you who believe, do not prohibit good things that are made lawful by GOD, and do not aggress; GOD dislikes the aggressors.

[8:61] If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

[4:90] ... if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them

etc

2.) How did Mohammed prove he was a prophet, as a researcher I DO NOT GO to false Muslim haters for information as it would be bias, so How did Mohammed prove he wasn't delusional and that the angel Gabriel did indeed was from him? Now I saw a video on 'The Deen show' and they were discussing this, and of course just because he didn't do it for money, power, women doesn't mean he wasn't delusional.

The Biggest Proof is Quran itself ,It a Book such that it cant be written except by the creator himself---You'll see this when you read it

The challenge of Quran--->

"This Qur'an is not such as can be produced by other than Allah; on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book - wherein there is no doubt - from the Lord of the worlds.Or do they say, "He(Muhammad) forged it"? say: "Bring then a Sura like unto it, and call (to your aid) anyone you can besides Allah, if it be ye speak the truth!"Nay, they charge with falsehood that whose knowledge they cannot compass, even before the elucidation thereof hath reached them: thus did those before them make charges of falsehood: but see what was the end of those who did wrong!"[Quran 10:37-39]

3.) Christ said (I'm not a christian) , that he was the last, and then Mohammed came, does this not sounds iffy? Now, some say the Bible has been changed and corrupted? Well we live in 2011 AD and the dead sea scrolls date back over thousand years, so the NT being corrupted is less then likely. So, if the NT has NOT been corrupted and Muslims cant prove it, why say it?

No where in the Bible did Jesus(pbuh) say ,that he was the Last Prophet ,infact he tells us in John chapter 16 verse 12-14 that his message is incomplete---And we don't say that the Bible is corrupted BUT there own PHD Bible scholars tells that Bible is unreliable bcz not a word was written in the Life time of Jesus(pbuh) ,these Gospels were written almost a hundred years after the death of Christ by anonymous people---But thats another debate

[youtube]TS37yrBwx2Q[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS37yrBwx2Q&feature=related

 

[Starsoul]

To begin I am a seeker of Truth and I question until I makes sense before I even consider it accurate then way before I believe and that a long shot before I respect.

To begin, I am anti-violent...

1.) I have heard that Mohammed was leader in military and he has killed before even to defend his religion. How is this justified? Has Mohammed killed, or supported a killing? In his Koran he has given 'how to fight in a war' . is quite scary for someone to be a 'prophet'. iF i SAY god is non-violent, would I be going against the Koran?

2.) How did Mohammed prove he was a prophet, as a researcher I DO NOT GO to false Muslim haters for information as it would be bias, so How did Mohammed prove he wasn't delusional and that the angel Gabriel did indeed was from him? Now I saw a video on 'The Deen show' and they were discussing this, and of course just because he didn't do it for money, power, women doesn't mean he wasn't delusional.

3.) Christ said (I'm not a christian) , that he was the last, and then Mohammed came, does this not sounds iffy? Now, some say the Bible has been changed and corrupted? Well we live in 2011 AD and the dead sea scrolls date back over thousand years, so the NT being corrupted is less then likely. So, if the NT has NOT been corrupted and Muslims cant prove it, why say it?

I'm only questioning.

Just asking, Have you read the Quran , or any book on the religion Islam? or you say all this based on hearsay?

I will further the points of one of the posters above,The Message in the Quran came something as " And we have completed the Message of guidance on You( Muhammad) and Muhammad is the last seal of prophets" which means that the message had started earlier and had ALWAYS meant to be continued till the last prophecy was fulfilled. Hence Islam isnt New, it just is the Final testament of Allah for all humanity, and for proper understanding of the old and new testament, one cannot base any concepts without reading the final word of Allah.

There have been several threads on the authenticity of the previous divine scriptures though, and really its mostly well read christians who really relate to the concept of God and Christ as is written in the Quran.

Too many examples to quote, but just a few, where yesterday my christian colleague herself said to me that she relates to the concept of Monotheism in Islam more than she relates to that of the bible, and I have never even spoken to her about it, it was her own curiosity which led her to seek more about it. So there are truths which just feel right to the heart and the mind and serve to clear one's concept about life and eradicate all confusion that surrounds us, for whoever seeks the truth shall find it.

 

[EddyM]

...
faught wars and is worshipped in Hinduism.

I am not sure if we can try and correlate Muhammad's actions and justification for them by drawing similarities from that of the incarnations of the Supreme Being as per Hinduism.

Do you consider what Allah does equitable to what Muhammad does? Will you ever reason "well Allah did so and so... so what Rasoolallah did was acceptable and reasonable etc..."?

Firstly what the servant of God does on behalf of God is not the same as what God Himself descending in physical earthly form does. And that applies even to His foremost servants i.e Prophets/Messengers.

Just because the form is represented as anthropomorphic doesnt mean you can started equating God and humans now. Let's make it clear that as the Ramayana and Mahabharata, the ancient traditions and Hindus up to today have it, Rama/Krishna is God in the form of human and not human.

Itihasas are indeed about warfare both allegorical as well as literal. But nowhere are they similar to Jihad atleast not in the sense we have of it in its less refined and more brutal and barbaric aspects. Which is what it commonly is. Although we may speculate this concept of where spirituality and full-scale warfare are combined and considered as a part of spirituality, that is also found within Islam under Jihad, the origin of such Jihad may have come from Hinduism.

However otherwise as we know of Jihad, if Hindus took it to be that way, there would have been armies pouring out from the Indian subcontinent and force converting or slaughtering entire peoples.

 

[A-ManESL]

However otherwise as we know of Jihad, if Hindus took it to be that way, there would have been armies pouring out from the Indian subcontinent and force converting or slaughtering entire peoples.

What you know of jihad is incorrect, and this is not converting or slaughtering people. If you want to debate this please create a relevant thread in the debates section.

As for the rest, there is a correlation but you do not possibly appreciate it because you are thinking of the Islamic religion as an entirely distinct way from Hinduism. I hold this view to be incorrect (and that it is partly influenced by apologetic adjustements made by some later Islamic theologians due to Hellenic-Christian influence). (Also similarly the strict difference between man and God is also present in a certain sense in Islam and obliterates in another). Maybe this link will help. Again, if you object to all this please make a relevant thread in the debates section.

Regards

 

[EddyM]

What you know of jihad is incorrect,

I know that there are different kinds of Jihad and that different schools understand it somewhat differently.

Let me re-quote myself.

Itihasas are indeed about warfare both allegorical as well as literal. But nowhere are they similar to Jihad atleast not in the sense we have of it in its less refined and more brutal and barbaric aspects. Which is what it commonly is. Although we may speculate this concept of where spirituality and full-scale warfare are combined and considered as a part of spirituality, that is also found within Islam under Jihad, the origin of such Jihad may have come from Hinduism.

However otherwise as we know of Jihad, if Hindus took it to be that way, there would have been armies pouring out from the Indian subcontinent and force converting or slaughtering entire peoples.

In otherwords. Yes. Hinduism does actually have a concept of "Jihad" - just not the Jihad of the sort that Muslims have been practicing the most, including your Prophet.

And don't talk to me about some funny Sufi ideas of Jihad. Tomorrow another Sufi sheikh will come and say something to me I don't yet know about :sarcastic and I can't keep up with all that.

and this is not converting or slaughtering people. If you want to debate this please create a relevant thread in the debates section.

Please I don't have the time nor the patience for that. Theres no point in lying about this. Whether you want to lie outright on purpose to save the image of Islam or whether you yourself truly believe this to be so i.e deluding yourself. (I think in your case you thoroughly want to see Islam the way you find you can masticate easily)

So what was the Mughal empire again? What happened to the Indian subcontinent for the last 1000 years? What about the Sikhs? Why did the Khalsa come about? Are those Sikhs lying about the struggles of their Gurus? Did Pakistan and Bangladesh pop out of nowhere? From where and how did their Muslim majority populations of that part of the Indian subcontinent come about? Don't tell me it was all just a breeze caused by Sufis whirling themselves about there now.

Its best that we leave this subject out. I have no interest in arguing about it.

As for the rest, there is a correlation but you do not possibly appreciate it because you are thinking of the Islamic religion as an entirely distinct way from Hinduism.

I am not one of those guys. It seems to me that Islam has perhaps got more similarities with Hinduism than even Christianity and Judaism. I just freely already admitted that concepts of "Jihad" exists similarly both in Islam and Hinduism.

I said there is similarity between Set 1 {A,B,C} and Set 2 {A,E,F,G,H} since they both contain 'A' that doesn't mean that now Set 1 contains E,F,G,H or is the same as Set 2. Likewise there are parts of Islamic Jihad that are remarkably similar to 'spirituality as warfare' in Hinduism. But we must admit that the character of Islam since its advent and its heydays have got much to do with brutal and barbaric assault against the infidels as justified, spiritually mandated inherent right of the Muslims.

 

[A-ManESL]

You seem to be in wrong place on the forum. I stand by all that I have said. If you want to debate this go in the debates section. If you disagree with this, I have nothing more to say (other then that you are entitled to your opinion, but I am not interested in knowing about it and that this is not to place to post it).

Regards