Death Attitudes Survey

[Scarlett Wampus]

I would consider it pretentious, even if I didn't meet your qualifications.

I'm not convinced either way about entheogens. Even if they do work, they strike me as... well, cheating. Taking a shortcut to things you're not ready to handle.

Re: Pretentiousness, I don't blame you given the circumstances. I'm curious about something though; you do meet those qualifcations?

Also if entheogens take a shortcut, isn't the readiness to handle what results something that would have to be determined from person to person? Is taking a car to work instead of walking cheating?

 

[Storm]

Re: Pretentiousness, I don't blame you given the circumstances. I'm curious about something though; you do meet those qualifcations?

Yes. My belief in God is based on an intense and transformative theophany I had when I was quite young, and for many years, my primary spiritual practice was learning to self-induce similar trance states.

Also if entheogens take a shortcut, isn't the readiness to handle what results something that would have to be determined from person to person?

Well, of course. I just feel that if you can't get there on your own, there's probably a reason for it.

Is taking a car to work instead of walking cheating?

Short of a tragic accident, taking a car to work doesn't have the power to change your life and identity.

I just feel that entheogens, if they can induce genuine mystical experiments, are dangerous for that very reason. It takes no discipline, no self awareness, no wisdom or strength of will.

 

[Scarlett Wampus]

Yes. My belief in God is based on an intense and transformative theophany I had when I was quite young, and for many years, my primary spiritual practice was learning to self-induce similar trance states.

I've thought "the force is strong in this one" before when reading your posts, not without a little apprehension sometimes. I wonder what other abilities power the Storm, hmm?

But to labour a point (and this is probably becoming obsolete by now), ever been through something like ego-death?

Well, of course. I just feel that if you can't get there on your own, there's probably a reason for it.

Short of a tragic accident, taking a car to work doesn't have the power to change your life and identity.

I just feel that entheogens, if they can induce genuine mystical experiments, are dangerous for that very reason. It takes no discipline, no self awareness, no wisdom or strength of will.

I'm going to start a thread on this. I think a lot of people will see entheogens as cheating. That's one of the common criticisms leveled against them. Anyway, for now...

Meditation, trance, prayer, philosophy, ritual, spiritual guidance and others are getting there on your own but entheogens aren't?

They are potentially dangerous and I agree that the act of taking them can take nothing other than exactly that. Nevertheless if someone has an idea what they're letting themselves in for that can be somewhat different. Oh, its still a big unknown but, for istnance, I can be fairly certain a good amount of discomfort & wonder will occur at the least if I'm psychonauting with entheogens.

Dealing with what happens after the point of no return, that can much depend much on strength of will, self-awareness and discipline of an individual. I've seen people confront the most incredible fears, inner pain, question fundmantal beliefs and get through all that in the space of a few hours. Or maybe they'll just laugh for hours. No way to tell.

 

[YmirGF]

Though I will toss my physical body aside in 50 years or so, I try to never confuse its demise with that of my own. Trust me, as much as some of you may prefer, you haven't heard the last from me, so you may as well get used to it.

 

[Scarlett Wampus]

Though I will toss my physical body aside in 50 years or so, I try to never confuse its demise with that of my own. Trust me, as much as some of you may prefer, you haven't heard the last from me, so you may as well get used to it.

Ah! A threat!

* pokes with stick *

 

[Storm]

I've thought "the force is strong in this one" before when reading your posts, not without a little apprehension sometimes. I wonder what other abilities power the Storm, hmm?

But to labour a point (and this is probably becoming obsolete by now), ever been through something like ego-death?

I think so, but I could use a little elaboration before I answer with any certainty.

You might want to review my thoughts on the ego, as well.

I'm going to start a thread on this. I think a lot of people will see entheogens as cheating. That's one of the common criticisms leveled against them. Anyway, for now...

OK, I'd be glad to participate.

Meditation, trance, prayer, philosophy, ritual, spiritual guidance and others are getting there on your own but entheogens aren't?

Pretty much. Do you disagree?

 

[Scarlett Wampus]

I think so, but I could use a little elaboration before I answer with any certainty.

You might want to review my thoughts on the ego, as well.

* nods * got that.

OK, I'd be glad to participate.

Pretty much. Do you disagree?

I do disagree, but we should probably continue on in the thread on entheogens in General Religious Debates rather than this death thread.

 

[Storm]

OK, I just finished responding there.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Temperament?! Well I guess pretty much any reaction to any state of affairs could be put down to temperament.

I assert that people, in general almost all of us, have a strong fear of nothingness and fear of death is often intimately connected to that.

If you think about becoming nothing even for a short while you can not fear it.

If you have ever had anesthetics you know that you quickly go into a state of nothingness...
If you never awoke from that state you would never even know about it.
That is the fate of thousands of people every day.

I suppose now you will say people fear anesthetics and I expect you are right.
But they are fearing the thought of dying not the upcoming nothingness.
The nothingness you enter is certainly not accompanied by fear.

 

[McBell]

To fear death and the disappointment of not seeing your children or grand children growing up is not normal behavior.

Completely irrelevant.

To do so is fearing two things that are not imminent on the one hand and is only a potential on the other. None of us will see the future that follows our death, good or bad.

Again, completely irrelevant.

People who spend time fearing potential disappointments in life, will spend a lot of time in fear, and will be proved right on many occasions. However such people probably need help.

Regardless, the fear is real.
Which is the exact opposite of your claim that it is not fear but disappointment.

 

[McBell]

If you think about becoming nothing even for a short while you can not fear it.

And yet there are people who constantly think about it BECAUSE they fear it....

I suppose now you will say people fear anesthetics and I expect you are right.
But they are fearing the thought of dying not the upcoming nothingness.
The nothingness you enter is certainly not accompanied by fear.

For most people perhaps.
However, there are those who do fear such things.
In fact, there are those who are not the least bit afraid of dying.
They are afraid of the nothingness they perceive comes with said dieing.

 

[Venatoris]

I can honestly say that I don't fear death. I don't fear nothingness either. Afterlife or not, once your dead what do you have to worry about? I think most people are afraid of the way they'll die not death itself. I for one think drowning would not be very pleasant. As for drugs, just say no. Although my one experience with peyote produced some of the best artwork I've ever done it just wasn't worth the gut rot.

 

[Scarlett Wampus]

I suppose now you will say people fear anesthetics and I expect you are right.
But they are fearing the thought of dying not the upcoming nothingness.
The nothingness you enter is certainly not accompanied by fear.

It is a thought. Trouble is that nothingness cannot be thought about - that can really rile people up when they try to comprehend what the meaning of that is in relation to their existence, because there isn't any to comprehend and yet that isn't satisfactory somehow. It can be like an anomoly that deflects all enquiry. Its not unlike working on a Zen koan, only, if someone wants some reassurance about death they don't want a darn Zen koan, they want to know!

Some just let it go. I guess it really is temperament after all, but those who just let it go might be missing out on a whole lot of terror/wonder.