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Death of Jesus

jimdand

New Member
Who is responsible for the death of Jesus?

Most classical historians agree that it is Jesus, himself, who is responsible for his own death.

Although he fell at odds with the Court of Jewish law in the Great Temple of Jerusalem and was subsequently arrested by Jewish soldiers in Judea, it was his own wrong-doing that caused the Jewish Court to find him guilty of Blasphemy, in that he said that he "is the Messiah", in addition to all of his other "rabble-rousing" and "trouble-making" in Judea, which certainly did not go unnoticed.

According to Jewish law, blasphemy is punishable by death.

HOWEVER, since Judea was a Roman Province, under the watch of Pontius Pilate, the Governor ---- it is Pilate, and ONLY Pilate who could have condemned Jesus to death.

In all provinces of the Roman Empire, the right to put anyone to death fell within the decision of the Governor of (that) province. NOT to anyone else.

When the Jewish soldiers turned Jesus over to Pilate and said that "he is guilty of blasphemy" --- Pilate's response was: "This man has not broken any Roman law". However, in a moment of inspiration, Pilate then asked Jesus: "Do you consider yourself a 'King'". Jesus' response was: "Yes, but my kingdom is not of this world". THAT was enough to satisfy Pilate that Jesus should be excecuted, because he NOW broke Roman law --- NO ONE, except the Emperor, was allowed to call himself "King".

Thus, by his own hand, his actions and words --- it is Jesus, himself, who is responsible for his own death.

Let us put to rest, once and forever, that it is NOT the Jews who killed Jesus. This was Pilate's decision, based upon Jesus' own words that "he is a King" ---- against Roman law.

jimdand
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
The unknown author of Mark is responsible for creating and killing Christ, in other words, penmanship is the culprit.
 
Jimdand,
Isn't there a bit more to it than that? For instance, a Jew who murders in his heart is still a murderer before God. So, the attempted murder and the desire to murder Jesus on the part of the Jewish leaders indicts them.

More interestingly to me is that their charge was blasphemy because he claimed to be God, but if He was in fact God then they are guilty of bearing false witness. If Jesus is God, then those who say otherwise are calling God a liar. At the baptism of Jesus the Father said "This is my Son with whom I am well pleased" and John the baptist called Jesus the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. Who can take away the sin of the world but God? So we see that both the Jews and the Romans are guilty of the death of Christ, but more so the Jews because they were God's people and Christ was sent to them. If anyone ought to receive God it should be the Jews.

Looking forward,
QM
 

Man of Faith

Well-Known Member
As a Christian I understand it was God that sent Jesus to his death. I don't blame the Jews, it was Jesus' purpose for coming to the earth, to be crucified, die and rasie again the third day. However I do understand that the Jews were called "jesus killers" for many years. That is unfortunate and a misunderstanding about the mission of Jesus.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Although he fell at odds with the Court of Jewish law in the Great Temple of Jerusalem and was subsequently arrested by Jewish soldiers in Judea, it was his own wrong-doing that caused the Jewish Court to find him guilty of Blasphemy, in that he said that he "is the Messiah", in addition to all of his other "rabble-rousing" and "trouble-making" in Judea, which certainly did not go unnoticed.

According to Jewish law, blasphemy is punishable by death.
Jesus never really committed blasphemy though. Proclaiming to be the Messiah, or even the son of God. Basically, it would be like me stating I was president. It may raise some brows, some may consider me crazy, but it isn't punishable.

Caiaphas, the high priest during that time, in my opinion, probably had something to do with the death of Jesus though. The reason being that Caiaphas was expected to help keep the peace. He was in between a rock and a hard place. On one side, he wanted to keep the Jews happy. He was a Jew himself. However, at the same time, he needed to help protect Jerusalem. It was partially his responsibility to keep the Jews in line. If the Jews got out of hand, the Romans would have had no problem coming in and squashing them. The High Priest was suppose to help with this. He worked hand in hand with Pilate. And looking at the time span in which Caiaphas reigned, he must of been doing a pretty good job.


As for who is responsible for his death, ultimately it was Jesus. And it was the Romans who executed him.

No doubt, Jesus knew what he was doing when he entered into the Temple during the Passover season, and caused such a stir. Passover was a very tense time. The reason is because they were celebrating their freedom from Egypt. And now there they were again, under another foreign rule. So obviously, tensions were high.

This is shown more by the fact that Pilate himself, with extra reinforcements, entered into the city on that occasion as well. They were there to keep the peace, and we know that sometimes peace was at danger.

So when Jesus went into the Temple, he knew that what he was doing could be just the spark needed to cause a revolt. He would have known the possibility was there. Thus, he was responsible, to a point, for his death.

At the same time, Rome was not going to allow a danger like Jesus to continue. We see the same thing happen with other religious leaders, such as John the Baptist. They were seen as a potential threat, and thus executed. Rome was very much committed to keeping the peace, and killing some Jew was not going to bother them at all.
 

mohammed_beiruti

Active Member
Jesus never really committed blasphemy though. Proclaiming to be the Messiah, or even the son of God. Basically, it would be like me stating I was president. It may raise some brows, some may consider me crazy, but it isn't punishable.

Caiaphas, the high priest during that time, in my opinion, probably had something to do with the death of Jesus though. The reason being that Caiaphas was expected to help keep the peace. He was in between a rock and a hard place. On one side, he wanted to keep the Jews happy. He was a Jew himself. However, at the same time, he needed to help protect Jerusalem. It was partially his responsibility to keep the Jews in line. If the Jews got out of hand, the Romans would have had no problem coming in and squashing them. The High Priest was suppose to help with this. He worked hand in hand with Pilate. And looking at the time span in which Caiaphas reigned, he must of been doing a pretty good job.


As for who is responsible for his death, ultimately it was Jesus. And it was the Romans who executed him.

No doubt, Jesus knew what he was doing when he entered into the Temple during the Passover season, and caused such a stir. Passover was a very tense time. The reason is because they were celebrating their freedom from Egypt. And now there they were again, under another foreign rule. So obviously, tensions were high.

This is shown more by the fact that Pilate himself, with extra reinforcements, entered into the city on that occasion as well. They were there to keep the peace, and we know that sometimes peace was at danger.

So when Jesus went into the Temple, he knew that what he was doing could be just the spark needed to cause a revolt. He would have known the possibility was there. Thus, he was responsible, to a point, for his death.

At the same time, Rome was not going to allow a danger like Jesus to continue. We see the same thing happen with other religious leaders, such as John the Baptist. They were seen as a potential threat, and thus executed. Rome was very much committed to keeping the peace, and killing some Jew was not going to bother them at all.

Do you mean Jews couldn't implement thier Laws under Roman power?

such as capital punishment.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Who is responsible for the death of Jesus?

Most classical historians agree that it is Jesus, himself, who is responsible for his own death.

Although he fell at odds with the Court of Jewish law in the Great Temple of Jerusalem and was subsequently arrested by Jewish soldiers in Judea, it was his own wrong-doing that caused the Jewish Court to find him guilty of Blasphemy, in that he said that he "is the Messiah", in addition to all of his other "rabble-rousing" and "trouble-making" in Judea, which certainly did not go unnoticed.

According to Jewish law, blasphemy is punishable by death.

HOWEVER, since Judea was a Roman Province, under the watch of Pontius Pilate, the Governor ---- it is Pilate, and ONLY Pilate who could have condemned Jesus to death.

In all provinces of the Roman Empire, the right to put anyone to death fell within the decision of the Governor of (that) province. NOT to anyone else.

When the Jewish soldiers turned Jesus over to Pilate and said that "he is guilty of blasphemy" --- Pilate's response was: "This man has not broken any Roman law". However, in a moment of inspiration, Pilate then asked Jesus: "Do you consider yourself a 'King'". Jesus' response was: "Yes, but my kingdom is not of this world". THAT was enough to satisfy Pilate that Jesus should be excecuted, because he NOW broke Roman law --- NO ONE, except the Emperor, was allowed to call himself "King".

Thus, by his own hand, his actions and words --- it is Jesus, himself, who is responsible for his own death.

Let us put to rest, once and forever, that it is NOT the Jews who killed Jesus. This was Pilate's decision, based upon Jesus' own words that "he is a King" ---- against Roman law.

The Temple-based Sanhedrin at that time was riven by internal strife. A major contingent of the court had been corrupted by the Priesthood, which had itself been corrupted for close to a hundred years by then (once the Hasmonean dynasty had been trapped by the subjugation of Rome, and begun its collapse, ending in its eventual supplantation by the Roman-pawn Herodian kings, who were not Jewish, but readily corrupted every Jewish institution they could).

The contingent within the Sanhedrin that was not corrupted refused to work with the Roman government. Thus, at that time, they were refusing to hear any capital cases, lest the verdicts be tampered with, or lest the condemned be taken by the Romans to be executed in a manner not in accordance with Jewish law.

Jewish law prescribes and permits only four methods of execution: stoning (either the condemned was buried to the waist and pelted with heavy stones until dead, or was thrown over a sheer cliff, and a large boulder dropped on top of him), burning (not at the stake, but rather, molten lead was poured down the condemned's throat, killing him instantly), beheading by the sword, or strangulation using the garrotte. In all cases, the full Sanhedrin was necessary to condemn, by a majority of at least two votes, and only after eyewitnesses testified that they had seen the accused commit the capital offense, but they had warned the accused not to commit the offense immediately prior-- a warning which the accused had to acknowledge verbally. Regardless of the method of execution, all condemned were drugged or made semi-conscious with drink before execution. Death had to be quick and as painless as possible. If condemned to death, it was forbidden to beat or flog the criminal before execution.

Therefore, if there were indeed a session of the Sanhedrin at which Jesus was convicted of any capital offense, and handed over to the Romans for them to execute, it was by definition an improperly convened and illegal proceeding. Which means that it would only have been done by an illicit partial court, who were knowingly and openly violating Jewish law.

It is also worth noting that under Jewish law, it is not blasphemy to claim that one is the messiah, even if one is not the messiah. It may be fraud, and it may be perjury if done under oath. But it is not blasphemy, at least not in the capital sense. There were hundreds, if not thousands of guys running around ancient Israel in Jesus' time claiming to be the messiah. None of them were accused of blasphemy, much less put to death for it, although the Romans did tend to kill off those that looked like they might want to start a revolt. If the one claiming to be the messiah is also attempting to persuade fellow Jews to break the commandments and fail to observe Judaism properly, that may be heresy, and false prophecy. But it is unclear from the gospel texts as we have them that Jesus indeed failed to keep the commandments, or caused other Jews to do so: such inferences to the effect that exist in the texts may well have been Pauline additions, or other corruptions of the actual events. Personally, I doubt that he would have done so: he seems to have been a reformer, with very unorthodox ideas, but not a true heretic. I personally believe the heretical elements were added to the story later, by non-Jews.

But in any case, it was only the Romans who crucified people, as crucifixion is forbidden by Jewish law. It was only the Romans (in that area) who whipped and beat condemned prisoners before execution. It was only the Romans who were executing people at all, and it was only the Romans who had reason to fear anyone claiming descent from King David. Pontius Pilate was known, from his prior postings, to be both vicious and ruthless, not to mention overly fond of crucifying people.

I personally think that it was simple: the corrupt High Priesthood feared Jesus' popularity as a reformer. The Romans probably disliked any descendant of David who had a largish popular following. The corrupt Priesthood convened an illegal show trial (and, by the way, the Priesthood had no legal power to convene a Sanhedrin), assembled a small "mob" of paid goons and corrupt cronies, and gave Pilate the excuse he was looking for to indulge his taste for cruelty. The whole process probably had nothing to do with the real Jewish authorities, and most Jews probably knew nothing about any of it.

It is also worth noting that, while Jesus does seem to have had a popular following that numbered in the thousands, most Jews had probably never heard of him, and cared nothing about him or his followers or his preaching. Charismatics, wonder-workers, faith healers, would-be messiahs, mystics, and reformers were all a dime a dozen in those days. The truth is that the vast majority of the Jewish people had nothing to do with Jesus, and never heard of him until Christianity started becoming a thing. And that only began happening when non-Jews began becoming Christians in large numbers without first converting to Judaism.

The stories in the gospels were written by Jesus' followers and their disciples: they wanted to believe that everybody was caught up in the events that they felt had changed everything. And so they wrote the gospels that way. But that was just their own passionate beliefs speaking. Jesus only became of interest to the Rabbis when his followers began to try and persuade observant Jews to consider him more than human, after he was already dead. And Jesus was entirely insignificant to the Jewish people at large, right up until the point at which his non-Jewish followers began to harass and oppress the Jewish people.

The Jews didn't just not kill him. The Jews didn't even care. He was just one more nice Jewish boy killed by the Romans...like a thousand others.
 

jmvizanko

Uber Tool
I'm siding with the himself side. If his death was required, then he killed himself. Apparently god needs some Wellbutrin.

Of course, I don't take for granted that the man/god even existed.
 
JMvizanko,
Do you think that giving your life to save someone is indicative of mental illness? Or, simpler, do you think that keeping something hurtful to yourself rather than hurting someone else too is a sign of mental illness?
Looking forward,
QM
 

jmvizanko

Uber Tool
JMvizanko,
Do you think that giving your life to save someone is indicative of mental illness? Or, simpler, do you think that keeping something hurtful to yourself rather than hurting someone else too is a sign of mental illness?
Looking forward,
QM

Certainly not. But when its coupled with cursing fig trees, sending demons into cows, throwing fits, telling families to make enemies of one another, telling people they should abandon society because the end is nigh, and most of all thinking one is some sort of messiah, that's a different story. Sounds like bouts with bipolar mania to me.
 
JM,
I think it would be helpful to put these in their proper context just like getting yourself killed in its proper context. Getting yourself killed for no reason is insane, but getting yourself killed to save someone else is love. So context matters doesn't it?

-Fig tree - If Jesus is who he says he is, then He created all things including the fig tree. He is the word by which it was said "Let there be light" and "Let the earth sprout vegetation..." So Jesus is the one responsible for the growth of plants which especially when cultivated exist for the purpose of providing food. In Christian theology this is a theme that parallels humanity which was made in God's image for the purpose of glorifying and enjoying Him. In the same way the 'axe is at the foot of the tree' for humans who don't obey God, the curse is on plants. We see this theme in the New Testament and I think it is quite reasonable for Jesus to use this as a teaching tool just as he said "render unto caesar what is caesar's" referring to a Roman coin.
-Demons into swine - In the Old Testament an animal that eats its own vomit, feces, and whatever waste products you have is considered an analogy for the uncleanness of man. In sin we pursue a life long course of waste and degradation which builds up. In sending demons (assuming they exist, as we would for any attempt at interpreting literature) into swine Jesus has mercy on a human in order to condemn an animal that is equal in the Jewish mind to uncleanness itself. This makes perfect sense.
-Enemies/familes - Jesus teaching on families can be easily misunderstood, but it isn't too difficult. If your family rejects you because you're trying to do what is right, the best thing to do is reject your family (at least until they come to their senses). Having 6 people who live disobediently but work together is not better than 5 people who live disobediently but work together and one righteous person. Reality tells us that it wouldn't work out anyway, so Jesus is saving everyone long term sorrow and pain by making a short term (albeit extreme) change. It's kind of like breaking up with a bad boyfriend.
-Abandoning society - I don't know of Jesus ever commending one to abandon society, except in the cases where society is entirely corrupt. Instead Jesus leads by example in revitalizing society.
-Messiah Complex - This would be a serious, even fatal problem, if Jesus were not the Messiah.

Would you agree that in general context is very important?

Looking forward to your reply,
QM
 

jmvizanko

Uber Tool
I agree that context is very important, and I may have been wrong to include any of those but the last one. Messiah complexes are pretty standard for bipolar mania, and in a day and age where they didn't understand this condition, as well as were thirsty for any answers they could get in a rather ignorant state of humanity, its not surprising that somebody with a messiah complex could be taken at his word. That sort of thing happens all the time even in modern times.

And lets face it, if he wasn't the messiah, and the consequences of believing he was, such as hell and arbitrary faith-based salvation and forgiveness, as well as all the Jewish messiah requirements he didn't meet, personally convince me that he wasn't, then him being insane seems to make the most sense. And not incoherently insane either, as insanity and genius often go hand in hand.
 
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JM,
I'm glad we agree context is important, it tells me I'm talking to someone reasonable and we both might profit from the exchange. :)

Do you think it likely that Jesus was believed because of the force of his preaching (Do what's right, love perfectly, be willing to suffer for righteousness)? I find this type of preaching offends people unless the person doing it is obviously leading by example. People in modern times are often deceived by the charisma of an individual, but their cults don't last after their deaths(at least not by virtue of the founder's charisma). I don't think it makes sense to say that people were fooled by Jesus, he did after all die on a Roman cross and everyone abandoned him. They seem like every day people to me. Some were intelligent or rich but most were every day people.

When you say Jesus was coherent, would you include the trustworthiness of his moral teaching?

Looking forward to your reply,
QM
 

jmvizanko

Uber Tool
JM,
I'm glad we agree context is important, it tells me I'm talking to someone reasonable and we both might profit from the exchange. :)

Do you think it likely that Jesus was believed because of the force of his preaching (Do what's right, love perfectly, be willing to suffer for righteousness)? I find this type of preaching offends people unless the person doing it is obviously leading by example. People in modern times are often deceived by the charisma of an individual, but their cults don't last after their deaths(at least not by virtue of the founder's charisma). I don't think it makes sense to say that people were fooled by Jesus, he did after all die on a Roman cross and everyone abandoned him. They seem like every day people to me. Some were intelligent or rich but most were every day people.

When you say Jesus was coherent, would you include the trustworthiness of his moral teaching?

Looking forward to your reply,
QM

I think a lot of his teachins were mostly great, and probably the reason he was so popular. But none of them were first thought up by him, or presented by him. Mostly they are things that anybody with empathy will think up on their own.

And yes, based on what little he had to say that we know from the bible, other than thinking he was the messiah / god, his sayings are indicitive of being intelligent, but nothing that suggests uniquely super intelligent.
 
JM,
I don't think the teachings of Jesus were new either, almost all of them were taken from the Old Testament, and most of those taken from Deuteronomy.

Do you think that if a man came to find himself fulfilling a seemingly impossible number of predictions about the Messiah that it would still be insane to consider one's self the Messiah?

Looking forward to your reply,
QM
 

jmvizanko

Uber Tool
JM,
I don't think the teachings of Jesus were new either, almost all of them were taken from the Old Testament, and most of those taken from Deuteronomy.

Do you think that if a man came to find himself fulfilling a seemingly impossible number of predictions about the Messiah that it would still be insane to consider one's self the Messiah?

Looking forward to your reply,
QM

You mean like all of these?

Messiah Truth: A Jewish Response to Missionary Groups

Oh wait... The thing is, the OT is obviously vague and cryptic enough for two whole religions to believe it describes two very different messiahs. And what would be tough for the writers of the new testament to take their interpretation of the messianic requirements, and then write that all of those apply to Jesus?

Not like it matters to me anyway. The thought that god would have a chosen people, and play favorites, is ridiculous. Which makes the idea of a Jewish messiah ridiculous, regardless of whatever that entails.
 
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