Death Penalty?

[Deeje]

Actually ancient Jews were very divided in the theology of resurrection and afterlife. The saducces and the pharisees were a product of that difference who have debated with Christ many times on the subject. These divisions came from interpretations of the old testament.

I mentioned the “ancient” Jews....before the sects of the Pharisees and Sadducees were formed....or did you think they were sectarian from the start? That is not how God operates. Sectarianism is how humans operate. (1 Corinthians 1:10) Look at Christendom! Where is the unity?

The history of the Jewish nation is not exactly one to be proud of. Time and again, Jehovah sent his prophets to correct them and Jesus reports how they responded.....

“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. 38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you. 39 For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’” (Matthew 23:37-39)

After orchestrating his arrest and holding an illegal trial, the Jewish leaders brought him to Pilate (who wondered why they had done so) and said....“If this man were not a wrongdoer, we would not have delivered him up to you,”

Desiring to avoid involvement, Pilate responded: “Take him yourselves and judge him according to your law.”

But the Jews claim: “It is not lawful for us to kill anyone.” (John 18:20-40) If they killed Jesus during the Passover Festival, it would likely cause a public uproar, since many hold Jesus in high regard. But if they can get the Romans to execute him on a political charge, this will tend to absolve them of responsibility before the people. They virtually had to blackmail Pilate into executing an innocent man by accusing him of disloyalty to Caesar. So in order to protect his own position, Pilate not only handed Jesus over, but threw in a painful scourging to boot.

It was carefully plotted....the actions of Jesus' accusers were not foreordained but foretold....and true to form. (Isaiah 46:10) Jehovah foresaw it and predicted it.

See Job 14: 14 and 1 Samuel 2:6 Job 19:26 Matthew 22:23 The realization of resurrection was only established at Christs resurrection as well as the handful of others.

You have to understand what resurrection means....it doesn’t mean changing form and living on in another form (for the majority of humans). Resurrection, as it was practiced by Jesus and his apostles, was a return to life in the flesh, here on earth. The dead “sleep” in an unconscious state in their graves. They do not go anywhere, nor do they have a conscious existence in another realm. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10; John 11:11-14)

The part were spirits enter a post mortal state comes from scriptual sources as well as many modern sources of post death experiences that people have encountered. Luke 23: 42-43 Luke 16:22 Upon death there is a waiting period which Christ refers to as a paradise or prison 1st Peter 3:18-19.

Post death experiences????? You mean “near death experiences” I presume. Whilst the brain has living cells, the body is not dead. An oxygen starved brain releases chemicals that apparently produce surreal, hallucinatory experiences. The odd thing is that these “near death” experiences usually reflect the religious view of the one who experiencing them. And not everyone has them.

I don’t believe that your interpretation of 1 Peter 3:18-19 is in keeping with what the scriptures teach.

It says in context.....
“18 For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit. 19 And in this state he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who had formerly been disobedient when God was patiently waiting in Noah’s day, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water.”

Who were these ‘disobedient spirits’ to whom Jesus preached after his resurrection? (not during the time he was in the tomb) He said that he was going to be 'in the heart of the earth for three days and nights', not just that his body was in the tomb whilst his spirit went elsewhere. He was not resurrected for three days. (Matthew 12:39-40) He was confined to the tomb, just as Jonah was confined in the belly of the fish.

2 Peter 2:4...
“Certainly God did not refrain from punishing the angels who sinned, but threw them into Tarʹta·rus, putting them in chains of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment.”

These were the angels who joined Satan in rebellion, causing havoc on earth and forcing God to take drastic action to bring things under control in the days of Noah.

Jude 6...
“And the angels who did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place, he has reserved with eternal bonds in dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.”

The prison was only for them....not for mankind who are generally just peacefully sleeping and waiting for Jesus to call them back to life as he did Lazarus.

There are fascinating parallels where scripture and prophecy came together at this moment. The biggest of which is the lamb during passover which was presented having no bone broken. The tradition that Jews have held for millennia where they would sacrifice a lamb to redeem themselves of their sins now was before their eyes. Had they killed Christ with stone they would have broken his bones doing so. The cross in where he was lifted up was all part of a larger millennia old plan to begin with. John 19:36.

Given that it was customary for the Romans to break the legs of their impaled victims, to hasten death after much suffering, it is indeed interesting to note that the two thieves hung alongside Jesus, both had their legs broken, but since they found that Jesus had already expired, they did not break his legs, thus fulfilling the prophesy. (John 19:32-34, 36)

For me this shows that God has prepared this event long before we could even understand. He is the Alpha and Omega. Deeje he is not a plan B type of God.

Not even sure what you mean by this...?
Jesus is not God and never was. (Plan B or otherwise) He had divine origin and was authorized by his Father to use the holy spirit to accomplish the divine will. But the pre-human Jesus was a created being.....(Colossians 1:15-17; Revelation 3:14) Of God and from God but not part of God. The Father is the one Jesus identified as "the only true God" without including himself. (John 17:3)

The atonement had to have happened not just because his once perfect creation became imperfect cause of some fruit, bit because he has willed it to happen from the start. He is the master planner.

What an odd thing for a parent to will for his children.....I could not love your god if all the violence and tragedy that has transpired on this earth was predestined by him from the start. That makes him responsible for every heinous thing humans have done to one another.

Jehovah gave humans choices because they were given free will. It was their choice to break God’s law and therefore suffer the penalty. Why make a law with a very serious penalty, and then punish the humans for breaking it?
Death was not supposed to happen.....sin brought death. They had the option NOT to sin.

Romans 5:18-19...
“So, then, as through one trespass the result to men of all sorts was condemnation, so too through one act of justification the result to men of all sorts is their being declared righteous for life. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one person many will be made righteous.“

This says it all.....IMO.

 

[Deeje]

Of course the justice system cares about why a person has broken a law. Many laws have exceptions that makes it so it's okay to "break the law" under certain circumstances. It's aslo very important for the application of the sentence. A man who kills his wife to get insurrance money is going to be punished more severely than a man, who in an excess of rage, killed his wife. Modern justice system have numerous degree that more ancient system didn't always had.

You misunderstand....I said that "the Law doesn't care if you break it"...the Law itself is not personal and has no mercy. Those who implement the Law can express reasons for clemency if they believe a person had no malice. The absence of malice means that the crime was not intentional. A penalty will still apply, but not as much as it would for premeditated murder. This was reflected in Israel's laws.

 

[epronovost]

This was reflected in Israel's laws.

Was there? Where does it make a difference in punishment between 2nd degree murder and 1st degree murder for example? I remember seeing some differences between stealing from kings and temples vs stealing from regular folks, bt not between the circumstances of the theft.

 

[Regiomontanus]

Scriptures seem to indicate that when anyone is murdered (think Abel killed by Cain) then their blood cries out for vengeance from the ground. This voice can't be silenced until vengeance comes. This is why God told Noah's descendants they should put murderers (and even animals that kill people) to death for it. This would insure that the vengeance of God would not come down on the entire land.

Moses even instructed the children of Israel to pray a certain prayer when they found someone murdered in their land but they couldn't figure out who did it. They would pray this prayer and they would tell God that they don't know who did it and they had no part in it. This was to make sure God would not send vengeance on the land for it. So, I take it seriously ... we don't want innocent blood on our hands which is what I believe happens if we don't administer justice for murders committed.

So essentially, by putting murderers to death we are saving the whole land from vengeance for the innocent blood.

That being said; due to these corrupt times we live in; we can hardly trust the current court system to properly execute the law. That means we don't know for sure they are even arresting the right people for crimes committed. So, as long as there is reasonable doubt we should not execute someone. I'd rather keep guilty people alive; than kill innocent people.

Your argument based on the example of Moses - I am curious how you square that with everything Jesus taught?

 

[Deeje]

Was there? Where does it make a difference in punishment between 2nd degree murder and 1st degree murder for example? I remember seeing some differences between stealing from kings and temples vs stealing from regular folks, bt not between the circumstances of the theft.

The Law contained many principles and guiding statutes. The judges were given latitude to investigate and consider motives and attitude of violators, along with the circumstances surrounding the violation. A deliberate, disrespectful, or unrepentant violator received the full penalty. (Numbers 15:30-31)

In other cases a lighter judgment might be determined. For example, a murderer was to be put to death without fail, but an accidental manslayer could receive mercy.....Cities of refuge were assigned by God so that an accidental manslayer could serve time for the killing but because it was an accident with no ill intent, he was free to remain within the confines of the city for as long as the High Priest lived. Upon his death, they were free to go. (Joshua 20:2-6)

"These six cities will serve as a refuge for the Israelites, for the foreign resident, and for the settler among them, for anyone to flee there who unintentionally kills someone.
“‘But if he struck him with an iron instrument and he dies, he is a murderer. The murderer should be put to death without fail."
(Numbers 35:15-16)

The owner of a bull that habitually gored people and that killed a man might merit the death penalty; or the judges might impose a ransom or monetary compensation. (Exodus 21:29-32) The difference between a deliberate thief and a wrongdoer who voluntarily confessed evidently accounts for the difference between the penalty stated at Exodus 22:7 and that of Leviticus 6:1-7.

 

[74x12]

Your argument based on the example of Moses - I am curious how you square that with everything Jesus taught?

Have an example? As far as I know Jesus didn't contradict what I said here so far. He doesn't have a lot to say about the death penalty in the Bible ... It's more of a civil matter than a spiritual one.

 

[MonkeyFire]

All killing is wrong. My religion teaches that one must defend himself without violence, or allowing another to suffer, by using inner peace to destroy your unwanted emotions (without extroverted equanimity), and in order to be kind to others at the same time. To boot we must help our adversaries to make sure they dont suffer. Then and only then will we be happy.

 

[74x12]

All killing is wrong. My religion teaches that one must defend himself without violence, or allowing another to suffer, by using inner peace to destroy your unwanted emotions (without extroverted equanimity), and in order to be kind to others at the same time. To boot we must help our adversaries to make sure they dont suffer. Then and only then will we be happy.

Well, I would feel sorry for your family when a rapist psycho busts your door down and you say "Family, peacefully, lovingly resist!" even though you could stop it. (That's not of God)

I believe men should stand up for their own or the weak against the strong. (1 Timothy 5:8)

 

[Jacob Samuelson]

I mentioned the “ancient” Jews....before the sects of the Pharisees and Sadducees were formed....or did you think they were sectarian from the start? That is not how God operates. Sectarianism is how humans operate. (1 Corinthians 1:10) Look at Christendom! Where is the unity?

I Absolutely agree with Paul to the Corinthians and although the context for this was directed toward a very difficult group of young christians changing the gospel to their own personal objectives, it most certainly applies to todays world doesn't it? It astonishes me to this day how diverse the sects of the world are today though we claim to believe and read the same Bible (translated differently or not). The tribe of Judah (or ancient Jews) was probably too young to be sectarian from the start, but that doesn't mean it's development didn't show major changes and later divisions. For examples, Jews who lived in Samaria amongst the Canaanites marked some of the tribes first divisions. Theology as with most sects today rapidly germinated to unique interpretations of the Talmud slowly dividing the nation, and in my opinion gave way to easy change of ownership throughout the centuries.

You have to understand what resurrection means.

I think I understand resurrection pretty clearly from what is written and from Christ's prolific and prophetic. I think the scriptures you provided are very nice, but there is little to no context supporting your idea that the dead are in an unconscious states. Why would you chose a scripture in Ecclesiastes talking about the how doing evil results in a dead-like state that has no progress in the future, which hardly speaks of resurrection, when you could hold more to these scriptures that clearly describe Christ's and others journey after death.

• 
  Abraham gave up the ghost, Gen. 25:8 (49:33).
  
  
• Bring my soul out of prison, Ps. 142:7.
  
  
• spirit shall return unto God who gave it, Eccl. 12:7.
  

• Jesus … gave up the ghost, Mark 15:37.
  
  
• To day shalt thou be with me in paradise, Luke 23:43.
  
  
• spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have, Luke 24:39.
  
  
• dead shall hear the voice of the Son, John 5:25.
  
  
• Stephen, calling … receive my spirit, Acts 7:59.
  
  
• spirits of just men made perfect, Heb. 12:23 (D&C 129:3).
  
  
• body without the spirit is dead, James 2:26.
  
  
• he went and preached unto the spirits in prison, 1 Pet. 3:19.
  
  
• gospel preached also to them that are dead, 1 Pet. 4:6.
  
  
• dead which die in the Lord … may rest from their labours, Rev. 14:13.
  
  
• dead lived not again until the thousand years, Rev. 20:5 (D&C 88:101).
  
  
  By definition of death the spirit has to leave the body. The spirit is a definite consciousness of good or evil. as we learned from Christ story of Lazarus and the rich man and the spirits that possessed the swine. There is no reason to think the spirits remain inanimate. We learn in 1 Pet. that these spirits are in a waiting period for resurrection and then judgement but are still being prepared and preached to until the final day it would come. Resurrection in the biblical sense Acts 2: 31. States that a resurrected body would not be subject to death anymore nor corrupted because of the flesh. Resurrection is a type of transformation, because in order for our bodies to undergo immortality which means death will no longer be an option, due to Christ, a body, even a immortal body must be given to us. You provided excellent proof that Lazarus was in fact dead and brought to life. This doesn't mean he was resurrected, which would be your definition. Christ was the first to be resurrected Acts 26:23 Rev. 1-5, which means he was the first to receive the immortality promised by the Father.
  
  

  But the pre-human Jesus was a created being.....(Colossians 1:15-17; Revelation 3:14) Of God and from God but not part of God.

  I think we're getting somewhere with the doctrine of pre-existence. Christ is technically God though. He proclaimed that he was the great 'I am' written of in the Old Testament. John 8:58 He directed the prophets of old to unite and build his church even before his birth. We declare that he is the Great Jehovah written in the Old Testament. Now I know you are just about to break your keyboard with a rebuttle to this idea, but it actually makes a lot of sense. A least more sense than the trinity which I know you don't believe. Christ said that there is only one that is good and that is the Father as you mentioned. This doesn't mean that he didn't create the earth or lead the prophets through revelation. This just means that He did everything under the direction of His Father. His Father gave Jehovah the map to create and because he created the worlds Christ held the title of Godship. He was so aligned with the will of the Father John 8: 18, 28. That there almost became no distinction between him and the Father. John 17: 11, 21They were one. Jehovah which was the name given by the Father. Yahweh and Yeshua or Jesus. When Joseph Smith saw the awesome vision of the Father and the Son, The Father referred to His Son and a directive to Hear Him. The Father and the Son are one. One God. Important to note, God is not a person or an entity rather a title given to Him who created us. Christ is God, just as Jesus is the Christ.
  
  

  What an odd thing for a parent to will for his children.....I could not love your god if all the violence and tragedy that has transpired on this earth was predestined by him from the start. That makes him responsible for every heinous thing humans have done to one another.
  
  Jehovah gave humans choices because they were given free will. It was their choice to break God’s law and therefore suffer the penalty. Why make a law with a very serious penalty, and then punish the humans for breaking it?
  Death was not supposed to happen.....sin brought death. They had the option NOT to sin.

  
  You gravely misunderstood. The will was not to punish, the will was to correct a wrong that would inevitably happen. Just because God planned the Fall to happen, Suffering is the last thing God would want for His creations. He has sent us so much help so we can be rid of suffering. We are not guinea pigs to Him to be rudely experimented on. The only utilization of suffering God condones is when it causes people to repent. God delights when we do good and strive for the best possible lives. He even sent his son to suffer, so that we may not suffer. 1st Peter 2:21. Acts 17:3. Christ had swallowed up death and because of it, we will return to the state of the Garden and even greater than that. Please understand that I have never said He is responsible for our mistakes as faulty humans, yet he took upon him the sins of the world and paid for them regardless. We must continue to repent in order to maintain this great gift. We must break the cycle of sin that surrounds us and not make it worse as mention by the scripture you shared in Romans.
  
  Last I want to say that just as the Father directed Christ to his blessings, so Christ gives all of us the opportunity to follow Him. We should all be one in Christ and there shouldn't be any divisions in the body of Christ only Functions. We are all given the same rights and opportunities as the Father gave Christ. We are to follow his example and then obtain a blessing that is far greater than any earthly Garden. Again, I would that you would understand what I say in these words and don't mistake me. I have tried my best to use only the tools offered me in the Bible and they should be enough to explain the nature of God is unchanging and exact. Please consider in prayer these words. Study them.
  
  

 

[MonkeyFire]

Well, I would feel sorry for your family when a rapist psycho busts your door down and you say "Family, peacefully, lovingly resist!" even though you could stop it. (That's not of God)

I believe men should stand up for their own or the weak against the strong. (1 Timothy 5:8)

Where was God, unless he himself is being passive, and with his omnipotence he can be. I can protect my emotions but not my life... yet.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." - Jimi Hendrix.

 

[Glaurung]

In today's world, with prisons and jails, the death penalty is unnecessary and brutal, especially since people can repent, which is a hallmark teaching in Christianity.

On the contrary, Aquinas argues that the prospect of execution can motivate repentance that may never find expression otherwise. If the prospect of death in the immediate future is not enough to move the soul to repentance, then it is unlikely said soul will ever repent. Thus if taken advantage of a death sentence can become a vehicle of repentance and sanctification. It can be the very kick up the rear that saves a person from Hell.

 

[oldbadger]

Scriptures seem to indicate that when anyone is murdered (think Abel killed by Cain) then their blood cries out for vengeance from the ground. ............................

Bad example. God didn't execute Cain.

 

[Spirit of Light]

There are instances in the Scriptures (Bible, Quran, many others) where followers of God are commanded to utilize the 'death penalty' as a form of almost Godly punishment. I understand that in the end, the world is to be cleansed of all unrighteousness in order to bring to pass a utopia of peace or what is understood better as heaven, and God is that ultimate judge, yet my question is what benefit has the 'death penalty' brought those in the scriptures? I refer to the massacres or conquests of land produced by Jews and Muslims as a commandment of their God? I haven't seen an instance where this lead to anything good as these same sects are fighting to this day because of wrongs they have caused others. It is written in Mosaic law that an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life. Christ attempted to end this seemingly misinterpreted scripture when he said to love those who hate you and do good to those who despitefully use you. Today, there are several places that believe in the death penalty as a form of punishment for heinous crimes, possibly most due to expenses. I don't believe life should be just thrown away by human judgement or expenses as anyone can change their life and start new as we read in many instances in the Bible. How would you justify the Death Penalty?

In my view, the Death penalty should be ended and never come back. Why do we let the Government allow killing by the state when they say it is illegal for anyone else? Why is there not the same law for Government and the people in the countries that do still have the death penalty?

 

[Glaurung]

Why do we let the Government allow killing by the state when they say it is illegal for anyone else?

Because the government is an institution of the state, not an individual. Under your logic the government has no right to set up courts, pass laws or levy taxes if the individual citizen is unable to do such things. That's absurd. Government has rights and obligations not applicable to individuals. One such right and obligation is the power to punish criminals.

Now whether governments in modern times should resort to the death penalty is a legitimate debate. But if you want to establish the death penalty as beyond the possible scope of civil authority then you need an actual argument; not a mere emotional response. Again under your own logic, if it's not legal for me to imprison anyone then the government has no right to put people in jail.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Bad example. God didn't execute Cain.

No, good example. From Adam to the flood of Noah God did not execute man for his crimes. There was no law and man lived by conscience alone. Result was the multiplication of wickedness to the degree that God had to now destroy mankind save the 8 souls of Noah and his family.

After the flood, (Gen. 9:6), God immediately instituted the death penalty. This would form human government and would give man the ability to curb wickedness in his local area.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[PruePhillip]

There are instances in the Scriptures (Bible, Quran, many others) where followers of God are commanded to utilize the 'death penalty' as a form of almost Godly punishment. I understand that in the end, the world is to be cleansed of all unrighteousness in order to bring to pass a utopia of peace or what is understood better as heaven, and God is that ultimate judge, yet my question is what benefit has the 'death penalty' brought those in the scriptures? I refer to the massacres or conquests of land produced by Jews and Muslims as a commandment of their God? I haven't seen an instance where this lead to anything good as these same sects are fighting to this day because of wrongs they have caused others. It is written in Mosaic law that an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life. Christ attempted to end this seemingly misinterpreted scripture when he said to love those who hate you and do good to those who despitefully use you. Today, there are several places that believe in the death penalty as a form of punishment for heinous crimes, possibly most due to expenses. I don't believe life should be just thrown away by human judgement or expenses as anyone can change their life and start new as we read in many instances in the Bible. How would you justify the Death Penalty?

Please don't quote the Quran in the same breath as the Bible. Mohammed was an Arab
warlord who cherry picked Hebrew scripture to create his own violent religion.
Jesus didn't correct some misinterpretation of scripture concerning the death penalty.
The bible is quite clear about this. What Jesus was pointing out is that we are ALL under
the penalty of death before God - but through forgiveness there is release from this
penalty. So we must forgive one another.
Discussion about the death penalty is pointless - it is disappearing in most countries.

 

[Regiomontanus]

Have an example? As far as I know Jesus didn't contradict what I said here so far. He doesn't have a lot to say about the death penalty in the Bible ... It's more of a civil matter than a spiritual one.

Hello. Well I was talking about violence and killing in general. I do not see how one can follow the Prince of Peace and condone any killing. So that is why I ask; I am curious how other Christians can justify any violence.

Luke 6:27
Matthew 6:14-15
Galatians 5:22
1 Peter 3:9

and so on.

 

[oldbadger]

No, good example. From Adam to the flood of Noah God did not execute man for his crimes. There was no law and man lived by conscience alone. Result was the multiplication of wickedness to the degree that God had to now destroy mankind save the 8 souls of Noah and his family.

After the flood, (Gen. 9:6), God immediately instituted the death penalty. This would form human government and would give man the ability to curb wickedness in his local area.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Do you have a verse which shows the introduction of the death penalty after the flood?
Do Christians take notice of the OT?

 

[Spirit of Light]

Because the government is an institution of the state, not an individual. Under your logic the government has no right to set up courts, pass laws or levy taxes if the individual citizen is unable to do such things. That's absurd. Government has rights and obligations not applicable to individuals. One such right and obligation is the power to punish criminals.

Now whether governments in modern times should resort to the death penalty is a legitimate debate. But if you want to establish the death penalty as beyond the possible scope of civil authority then you need an actual argument; not a mere emotional response. Again under your own logic, if it's not legal for me to imprison anyone then the government has no right to put people in jail.

All i saying is that human beings should not kill, state or private person, i am 100% against killing, death penalty and other forms that kill someone

 

[metis]

On the contrary, Aquinas argues that the prospect of execution can motivate repentance that may never find expression otherwise. If the prospect of death in the immediate future is not enough to move the soul to repentance, then it is unlikely said soul will ever repent. Thus if taken advantage of a death sentence can become a vehicle of repentance and sanctification. It can be the very kick up the rear that saves a person from Hell.

Because yesterday was yesterday and today is today, the Catechism and statements by Pope Francis clearly state that capital punishment today is not compatible with Catholic teachings.

Simply put, one cannot be pro-life if they approve of capital punishment because in today's world it simply is revenge, not a panacea.