PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
This is a valid deduction with the customary benevolant, omnimax God.
What's special about peace and love that they require a god?
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Debate: If God exists, why does God allow so much suffering?
- Thread starter Flat Earth Kyle
- Start date
This is a valid deduction with the customary benevolant, omnimax God.
Even with that, though, I don't see how they necessarily must
cancel each other out.
Probably the same thing that's
special about suffering that it seems to require God's absence.
The best (and likely the least 'orthodox') explanation for the
challenges in this life that I personally have seen is probably better
for another thread... not sure if I'd derail this thread by bringing it up
here. At any rate, to make a long story short, I have found it
helpful in reconciling existence of a loving deity with things not being
always rosy on the earthly plane.
.
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
You've got the logic the wrong way around. Suffering does not require God's absence; however, God's presence precludes the existence of suffering.
Probably the same thing that's
special about suffering that it seems to require God's absence.
I agree -- I realize suffering doesn't require God's absence, that's
why I said it seems to, based on the fact that others bring it up as
reason to question God's existence. That's why threads like this
one come up, with some variation on the whole theme of
Suffering = no God.
And, again, while I realize folks think that suffering and God cannot
coexist, I personally don't see why that must be the case.
.
godnotgod
Thou art That
Most suffering is due to having a wrong view of reality. What you call 'God' can be fully present all the time, but if your view is incorrect, suffering will still ensue, since you will base your actions on an incorrect view. 'God' can do nothing about that. For example, you are always here, now. But if, for whatever reasons, you begin to think you are somehow separate from the reality you are immersed in at the moment, you will suffer, because you will begin to make efforts to 'return' to that from which you have never been separated.
Most of mankind is on a "troubled voyage in perfectly calm weather"
It seems to me that we create an image of a god because we do not understand our own human nature. Not understanding our own nature generates suffering, and in our ignorance, we reach out for something...anything...which will alleviate that suffering, not understanding that such suffering is alleviated when we ourselves are able to insightfully see, and therefore, understand, what its true nature is.
'The fundamental difference between Buddhism and other religions is that Buddhism has no God or gods before whom people bow down in return for peace of mind. The spirit enmeshed in the Buddha's teachings refuses to offer a god in exchange for freedom from anxiety. Instead, freedom from anxiety can only be found at that point where the Self settles naturally upon itself.'
from: 'From the Zen Kitchen to Enlightenment', by Dogen/Uchiyama
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Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
This is not to be taken literally. Of course the lion cannot lie down with the lamb. That is utterly ridiculous! You are asking a lion not to follow its natural lion instincts, and for a lamb to be an utter fool!
"Oh, lookie! A nice fluffy lion! I do believe I'll prance over and snuggle up to him....my...what big teeth you have, Fluffy!"
"Why, thank you, Little Lamb! I do believe I love you so much that I cannot possibly EAT you. Oh, no, no, no! Why, I'd rather STARVE! Grass, anyone? yum...yuck¡"
Pure poppycock!
Nyet.
What this refers to is the realization of unity and harmony between the ordinarily opposed aspects of aggression and passivity, or, if you will, yin and yang. In other words, in this 'new heaven' that is being spoken of, man's consciousness will be transformed into one that has no conflict within it. It is this state of mind which actually creates the reality of 'heaven'! It is not an actual physical/spiritual 'place' as such, but a state of spirit/mind.
Is this an assumption or do you know that for certain?
godnotgod
Thou art That
Think about how the writer of the scripture in question had to have come to the conclusion that he did. What does a lion laying down with a lamb symbolize? This is metaphor for a particular state of mind that can only occur when the mind is spiritually transformed.
We do know one thing for certain: literally speaking, lions do not lie down with lambs.
I know for a fact that mind without conflict is the true nature of mind.
The world we live in is a direct reflection of our state of mind, is it not?
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godnotgod
Thou art That
In one sense, you're right.
The nature of all suffering is that it is temporal. It is also relative, as it is inextricably tied to joy. If you imagine a triangle, with Relative Suffering on one corner, with Relative Joy at the opposite end, this establishes their relationship. We suffer because the joy we experienced is no more. But there is another kind of Joy, and that is Absolute Joy, which has NO opposite, and it is this Absolute Joy which is at the apex of the triangle. Suffering does exist in its presence, but dissolves when one realizes the state of Absolute Joy. However, this requires transcendence from the lower to the higher state of consciousness. From this vantage point, one sees and understands the true nature of both Relative Joy and Suffering, and is no longer at their mercy. It is said that when a man reaches his effulgent being (ie; Absolute Joy; Radiance), joy and suffering then become a study to him. So it's not about the presence of God, but the state of one's being that determines how suffering is seen.
Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
So yours is an assumption then, it is merely something you and probably someone else supposes.
I believe that animals will also be resurrected. If this is the case I think that lion is going to have a hard time trying to kill an immortal lamb.
godnotgod
Thou art That
No. It is a realization via direct experience. As I said: "I know for a fact that mind without conflict is the true nature of mind."
Now you're talking beliefs. What do you base the idea of animal bodily resurrection upon? Have you ever seen an animal body being resurrected?
The point is not that a lion will attempt to kill an immortal lamb, whatever that is, but that its natural instincts to kill are completely subdued. In order for that to occur, some other transformative conscious force must come into play. That is what I am saying: that higher consciousness transforms the ordinary view of reality into one where there is complete integration of all dualities. When this occurs, there is no longer any conflict in such a mind, as all opposites are understood to be in complete harmony one with the other. That we ordinarily do not see them as such is due to our delusive thought.
Having said that, the metaphor of a lion laying with a lamb is a poor one, since it is rather contrived. Reality says that lions are predatory hunters and eat sheep. What this points to is that everything is already perfect, just as it is. To paint a picture of a heavenly paradise on earth where lions lay with lambs is a pure fantasy wherein the tail is made to wag the dog.
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Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
So you claim that you are not assuming what the writer of the scripture in question had in mind when he wrote what he did?
How do you know that is what he had in mind? John the Beloved is still alive today, did he come talk to you and tell you these things?
How do you know that is what he had in mind? John the Beloved is still alive today, did he come talk to you and tell you these things?
godnotgod
Thou art That
It is important to first look at the verses in question in their complete context:
Isaiah 11
New International Version (NIV)
1 A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse;
from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him—
the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding,
the Spirit of counsel and of might,
the Spirit of the knowledge and fear of the LORD—
3 and he will delight in the fear of the LORD.
He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes,
or decide by what he hears with his ears;
4 but with righteousness he will judge the needy,
with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth.
He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth;
with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked.
5 Righteousness will be his belt
and faithfulness the sash around his waist.
6 The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling[a] together;
and a little child will lead them.
7 The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8 The infant will play near the cobra’s den,
and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.
9 They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the LORD
as the waters cover the sea.
10 In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his resting place will be glorious. 11 In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the surviving remnant of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia,[c] from Hamath and from the islands of the Mediterranean.
12 He will raise a banner for the nations
and gather the exiles of Israel;
he will assemble the scattered people of Judah
from the four quarters of the earth.
13 Ephraim’s jealousy will vanish,
and Judah’s enemies[d] will be destroyed;
Ephraim will not be jealous of Judah,
nor Judah hostile toward Ephraim.
14 They will swoop down on the slopes of Philistia to the west;
together they will plunder the people to the east.
They will subdue Edom and Moab,
and the Ammonites will be subject to them.
15 The LORD will dry up
the gulf of the Egyptian sea;
with a scorching wind he will sweep his hand
over the Euphrates River.
He will break it up into seven streams
so that anyone can cross over in sandals.
16 There will be a highway for the remnant of his people
that is left from Assyria,
as there was for Israel
when they came up from Egypt.
*****
Furthermore, as I understand it, John the Beloved, and John of Patmos, are one and the same person. John of Patmos was exiled to the Greek island of Patmos by the Romans. Hallucinogenic mushrooms grow rampant on Patmos. Much of the imagery in Revelation is consistent with those under the influence of hallucinogens, according to researchers in the field.
*****
Also, look at Isaiah 65:
New Heavens and a New Earth
17 “See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.
19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.
20 “Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
the one who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere child;
the one who fails to reach[a] a hundred
will be considered accursed.
21 They will build houses and dwell in them;
they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
or plant and others eat.
For as the days of a tree,
so will be the days of my people;
my chosen ones will long enjoy
the work of their hands.
23 They will not labor in vain,
nor will they bear children doomed to misfortune;
for they will be a people blessed by the LORD,
they and their descendants with them.
24 Before they call I will answer;
while they are still speaking I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
and dust will be the serpent’s food.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,”
says the LORD.
*****
The Jews were a people totally controlled by the Romans. In their minds, no earthly power could save them from their plight. Only a supernatural power from 'the other world' could do so. They were helpless and in hell. They had to appeal to powers beyond themselves and envision a future 'heaven on earth' as answer to their misery. In other words, their mental imagery went from one extreme to another, overshooting an ordinary, balanced view of life to that of one that is imaginary and contrived.
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Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
I see you don't believe in any of this stuff anyway, which explains a lot about your reasoning in making the assumptions that you make.
godnotgod
Thou art That
Well, duh, give me a reason to believe in such notions, then! Did you just expect people to swallow these notions just because they are presented under the color of Biblical authority? Poppycock!
You're just going round in circles, insisting that I am operating on assumptions just because I present arguments that do not agree with your belief system.
If you wish to have a discussion, fine, but if all you are going to do is to point your dogmatic finger, then no basis for real discussion exists.
I do not place credence in the assertion, even if it is contained in scripture, that lions lay down with lambs. We know for a fact that they never have, do not now, and based on all previous evidence, will never do so. For that to occur, all natural instincts of the animals in question would need to be suspended, rendering lions no longer lions, and lambs no longer lambs.
It seems obvious to me that you DO place credence in such a notion, and that the author of these verses did actually believe it to be so as well.
I am attempting to go into the mind which produced such a notion, and the basis for doing so. In spite of the fact that the author believed in such notions as true, they are still metaphorical, and that points to something that can be discussed. We have evidence for such thinking, which is what I am attempting to present. The key here is to understand why the author is presenting such a scenario.
Show me your evidence for the notion that lambs lay down with lions. If you cannot, then this discussion is over.
Thank you very much.
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It's estimated that 100 billion people have lived on Earth, I have no idea how many gazillion other creatures have roamed this rock or swum in it's oceans or flown in the air, including mega fauna and dinosaurs. I think it's gonna be bloody crowded, I hope we don't need to eat?yaddoe said:
godnotgod
Thou art That
And what a Judgment Day it will be! Imagine all those cattle having been ground up into hamburger being re-assembled back into their original bodies!
"Hey! That happens to be MY calf (no pun intended!) bone! Give it!":biglaugh:
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Is all the medical progress made that eases our suffering sinful ?
Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
Well, duh, give me a reason to believe in such notions, then! Did you just expect people to swallow these notions just because they are presented under the color of Biblical authority? Poppycock!
You're just going round in circles, insisting that I am operating on assumptions just because I present arguments that do not agree with your belief system.
If you wish to have a discussion, fine, but if all you are going to do is to point your dogmatic finger, then no basis for real discussion exists.
I do not place credence in the assertion, even if it is contained in scripture, that lions lay down with lambs. We know for a fact that they never have, do not now, and based on all previous evidence, will never do so. For that to occur, all natural instincts of the animals in question would need to be suspended, rendering lions no longer lions, and lambs no longer lambs.
It seems obvious to me that you DO place credence in such a notion, and that the author of these verses did actually believe it to be so as well.
I am attempting to go into the mind which produced such a notion, and the basis for doing so. In spite of the fact that the author believed in such notions as true, they are still metaphorical, and that points to something that can be discussed. We have evidence for such thinking, which is what I am attempting to present. The key here is to understand why the author is presenting such a scenario.
Show me your evidence for the notion that lambs lay down with lions. If you cannot, then this discussion is over.
Thank you very much.
Well, speaking about the resurrection and many other Biblical things that you don't believe in, all I have for you is more scripture and the exhortation to pray, read the Book of Mormon, and come to church to find out for yourself if these things are true, all of which I sense that you are not very interested in.
The only motivation I would have in continuing our conversation is in pointing out the assumptions that you make until you admit that your foundation is built upon assumptions, or until you can prove to me otherwise, which is a very difficult feat for anyone.
godnotgod
Thou art That
This is a DISCUSSION forum, not a place of worship or even a place where we are merely to believe in religious doctrine. The difference is one between being a believer and being a scholar. If you approach a discussion with your beliefs, then there is little room for discussion.
As for assumptions, what do you say about John of Patmore and his intent in making the claim that the lion will lie down with the lamb? In your estimation, does he mean it literally or figuratively?
My position is that he means it literally, and that conclusion is based on the rest of his claims as understood in context. I am not assuming this to be the case; I am basing it on what seems obvious to anyone reading these passages.
Attending church services will not prove anything regarding the question at hand.
You have still failed to provide a good reason for me to believe in the resurrection of animals and the notion that the lion will literally lay with the lamb. Exactly what are you basing such beliefs upon, and why? Perhaps you have never taken the time to give these questions serious thought?
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Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
Its really hard (impossible even) to teach anyone anything concerning God, if they reject the spirit of God who is the real teacher who who has the power to convince and prove that God is there, in that the Holy spirit is God. Really good ways to invite the spirit to teach you and prove that He is there, is by studying the doctrine we teach in the scriptures, praying, and attending church.
Here is some of what Modern prophets have taught concerning the resurrection of animals.
Prophet Joseph Smith:
John saw beings there [in heaven] of a thousand forms, that had been saved from ten thousand times ten thousand earths like this,-strange beasts of which we have no conception: all might be seen in heaven. The grand secret was to show John what there was in heaven. John learned that God glorified himself by saving all that his hands had made, whether beasts, fowls, fishes or men; and he will glorify himself with them.
Says one, "I cannot believe in the salvation of beasts." Any man who would tell you that this could not be, would tell you that the revelations are not true. John heard the words of the beasts giving glory to God, and understood them. God who made the beasts could understand every language spoken by them. The four beasts were four of the most noble animals that had filled the measure of their creation, and had been saved from other worlds, because they were perfect: they were like angels in their sphere. We are not told where they came from, and I do not know; but they were seen and heard by John praising and glorifying God. [See Rev.4:6] - - General Conference held on the floor of the Nauvoo Temple, April 8, 1843 HC 5:343-44, cited in McConkie, Mormon Doctrine 1st ed p 578, and in Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith 345-346
Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith:
Animals do have spirits and that through the redemption made by our Savior they will come forth in the resurrection, to enjoy the blessing of immortal life. - "Answers to Gospel Questions" Volume 2, Page 48
Apostle Bruce R. McConkie:
Nothing is more absolutely universal than the resurrection. Every living thing and being will be resurrected. "As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Cor. 15:22.)....
Just as the creative and redemptive powers of Christ extend to the earth and all things thereon, as also to the infinite expanse of worlds in immensity, so the power of the resurrection is universal in scope. Man, the earth, and all life thereon will come forth in the resurrection. And the resurrection applies to and is going on in other worlds and other galaxies.
Thus saith the Lord: "And the end shall come, and the heaven and the earth shall be consumed and pass away, and there shall be a new heaven and a new earth. For all old things shall pass away, and all things shall become new, even the heaven and the earth, and all the fulness thereof, both men and beasts, the fowls of the air, and the fishes of the sea; And not one hair, neither mote, shall be lost, for it is the workmanship of mine hand." (D. & C. 29:23-25.) - Mormon Doctrine 1st ed 573-578, 2nd ed 642-643
The First Presidency (Joseph F. Smith, John R. Winder, Anthon H. Lund):
He made the tadpole and the ape, the lion and the elephant but He did not make them in His own image, nor endow them with Godlike reason and intelligence. Nevertheless, the whole animal creation will be perfected and perpetuated in the Hereafter, each class in its 'distinct order or sphere,' and will enjoy 'eternal felicity.' That fact has been made plain in this dispensation (D&C 77:3). - Church First Presidency Message, Christmas greetings, Dec. 18, 1909
Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith (later President):
The Lord created all things for a purpose. Nothing has he created to be destroyed, but that all things might endure forever... The Lord intends to save, not only the earth and the heavens, not only man who dwells upon the earth, but all things which he has created. The animals, the fishes of the sea, the fowls of the air, as well as man, are to be re-created, or renewed, through the resurrection, for they too are living souls. - General Conference, October 1928
Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith (later President):
Every creature has a spirit, and that it existed in the spirit before it was on the earth; the spirit of every creature is in the form of its temporal, or mortal, body. Since this is true, and all forms of life partook of the effects of Adam's fall, therefore they are entitled to the resurrection and shall live again. "And not one hair, neither mote, shall be lost for it is the workmanship of mine hand," said the Lord. (D. & C. 29:25.) Likewise the earth, which is a living body, must die "in like manner" as to all other mortal things, and then receive the resurrection. (Isa. 51:6.) The fact that the spirit of every animal, every fish, every fowl of the air, is in the likeness of its body, and that also it was created in the spirit in the beginning, is a contradiction of these unscientific theories which man has inflicted upon a fallen world. "Church History and Modern Revelation", Published by The Council of The Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, 1946.
All of this helps me lean on the fact that the Lamb lying down with the lion was literal.