Debate: If God exists, why does God allow so much suffering?

[godnotgod]

Okay then yes I agree

OK, good. And this vision which the author had occurred within his mind?

 

[Me Myself]

God is masochist and we are the suffering part of him.

God´s just weird like that

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

OK, good. And this vision which the author had occurred within his mind?

I don't really know if it was an in or out of body experience.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Best; accomplishes what He had intended (fellowship with His children) with absolute and full effectiveness and appropriateness.

But he doesn't accomplish it with full effectiveness.

But getting back to the question you're sort of not actually answering... your reasoning is it's best only because it's God's way.

Not because it's actually the best way.

Essentially, your view is as I described it:

So it's all right that people suffer simply because God wills it?

 

[godnotgod]

I don't really know if it was an in or out of body experience.

That's irrelevant. The point is that the author is relating his understanding of the symbol of lion laying with lamb, which is the suspension of aggression on the lion's part, and therefore suspension of fear/escape on the lamb's part, a condition you are calling 'peace'.

 

[Koldo]

Best; accomplishes what He had intended (fellowship with His children) with absolute and full effectiveness and appropriateness.

And what is it that God intends with 'unwanted suffering' that can not be achieved with absolute and full effectiveness and appropriateness by some other method/means?

 

[Koldo]

Perhaps it is we who chose to be born into this condition, and we continued to see the rope as a snake. The rope can be a metaphor for True Reality, while the snake a metaphor for Illusion. We live the Illusion, having mistaken it for True Reality. Remember Plato's Cave Allegory?

And how do you justify humans, in their former existence, being born into this condition where they are able to make this choice? Is there a purpose in making this choice?

 

[Nakosis]

Perhaps it is we who chose to be born into this condition, and we continued to see the rope as a snake. The rope can be a metaphor for True Reality, while the snake a metaphor for Illusion. We live the Illusion, having mistaken it for True Reality. Remember Plato's Cave Allegory?

Maybe we are on a similar page in thinking here. Except I don't know that we can be sure there's an actual rope.

 

[Nakosis]

And how do you justify humans, in their former existence, being born into this condition where they are able to make this choice? Is there a purpose in making this choice?

As I see it, humans choose to see it as a snake.
We are born into ignorance. We don't have a choice there.
However life(existence) is what it is. We choose to experience it as suffering.

We don't know what existence really is. God could have, I suppose, given us that knowledge. However then we wouldn't have the freedom to see the rope as a snake.

So you'd probably ask, why would anyone want to perceive a rope as a snake...

You ever go to a scary movie? Being scared is fun sometimes. However if you forget it's just a movie that fear can cause you to suffer.

 

[Koldo]

As I see it, humans choose to see it as a snake.
We are born into ignorance. We don't have a choice there.
However life(existence) is what it is. We choose to experience it as suffering.

We don't know what existence really is. God could have, I suppose, given us that knowledge. However then we wouldn't have the freedom to see the rope as a snake.

So you'd probably ask, why would anyone want to perceive a rope as a snake...

You ever go to a scary movie? Being scared is fun sometimes. However if you forget it's just a movie that fear can cause you to suffer.

From what i get, according to him, it is even more fun to perceive the absolute joy. So why would someone choose not to perceive it? What would be gained from this choice? If nothing was to be gained, how can this choice being available be justified?

 

[Nakosis]

From what i get, according to him, it is even more fun to perceive the absolute joy. So why would someone choose not to perceive it? What would be gained from this choice? If nothing was to be gained, how can this choice being available be justified?

I don't think you can have joy without the potential for suffering. In order to perceive joy you also have to be capable of perceiving the lack of it. Otherwise the perception of it has no meaning.

Therefore the justification is so joy will have meaning/value to us.

We have freedom of perception. We are free to perceive life as joy or suffering. If we decide to see life as suffering, I don't know that we can blame God for that.

We can of course blame God for allowing us that freedom of perception. But it's still up to you how you choose to use it.

 

[Koldo]

I don't think you can have joy without the potential for suffering. In order to perceive joy you also have to be capable of perceiving the lack of it. Otherwise the perception of it has no meaning.

Therefore the justification is so joy will have meaning/value to us.

Not perceiving joy does not equal to perceiving suffering.

We have freedom of perception. We are free to perceive life as joy or suffering. If we decide to see life as suffering, I don't know that we can blame God for that.

We can of course blame God for allowing us that freedom of perception. But it's still up to you how you choose to use it.

What is the point of this freedom of perception? Why is the perception of suffering necessary? According to you, wouldn't the perception of lack of joy be enough?

 

[Tbone]

For those complaining about the other thread being in Comparative Religion...
Have at it.

Without freedom to fail and suffer there would be no freedom.
God gives us freedom to succeed and to fail.
Without freedom we would be nothing more than robots.

 

[Koldo]

Without freedom to fail and suffer there would be no freedom.

Do you mean to say God is not free?

 

[Nakosis]

Not perceiving joy does not equal to perceiving suffering.

I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is I don't think you can have the potential for one without the other.

What is the point of this freedom of perception? Why is the perception of suffering necessary? According to you, wouldn't the perception of lack of joy be enough?

The point for me is its interesting, exciting, fun. I can feel joy and pain. I kind of value both. The point for God? IDK, I can't speak for God. I suspect it might be boredom... All eternity and nothing to do. But then I'm assuming God can be bored.

 

[Koldo]

I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is I don't think you can have the potential for one without the other.

Why not?

The point for me is its interesting, exciting, fun. I can feel joy and pain. I kind of value both.

The word 'pain' can be misleading in this context. It is better to use the word 'suffering'. And even better to say 'unwanted suffering'. Can you appreciate unwanted suffering?

The point for God? IDK, I can't speak for God. I suspect it might be boredom... All eternity and nothing to do. But then I'm assuming God can be bored.

In other words, you don't know why God allows so much suffering.

 

[Tbone]

Do you mean to say God is not free?

Just because one has the freedom to do something doesn't mean they will.
Are you feeling alright?

 

[Nakosis]

Why not?

Awareness. You have to be aware of what could be to appreciate/see meaning in what is.

The word 'pain' can be misleading in this context. It is better to use the word 'suffering'. And even better to say 'unwanted suffering'. Can you appreciate unwanted suffering?

I've learn not to suffer unless I want to. So there is no unwanted suffering for me. Can I appreciate suffering yes, but perhaps because I can control my perception of it.

In other words, you don't know why God allows so much suffering.

No, I don't know God's purpose to where I can speak with any authority. What I'm saying is regardless of God's reason, I don't see it as a problem. I see it as a blessing. I value the ability to know suffering and joy regardless of God's purpose.

However I suspect God's purpose is so I can have the opportunity to value/experience these things.

 

[Koldo]

Just because one has the freedom to do something doesn't mean they will.
Are you feeling alright?

How could God fail?
Only if he wanted to fail. However, if he wanted to fail, he would succeed in failing. So he is not really failing, because it was a success.

If the lack of the ability to fail makes one not free, then God is not free.

Also, does God suffer?
Can you show that God can suffer without wanting to suffer?
Can you show the presence of 'unwanted suffering' to be true to God?

 

[meddlehaze]

And what is it that God intends with 'unwanted suffering' that can not be achieved with absolute and full effectiveness and appropriateness by some other method/means?

His glory.