Jesus said he was from / sent by his Father, whom he called "the only true God." John 17:3; at John 4:23-24, he encouraged others to worship his Father....never himself.
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Debate me on the trinity.
- Thread starter satanism4life
- Start date
Muffled
Jesus in me
I thought you wanted to debate not just spout nonsense.
So I believe I can do something similar by stating the truth. I believe in the Trinity and that it is fundamentally right.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe then that you are most likely greatly misinformed.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe it works out fine because you can debate me and I certainly enjoy your posts.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Well, thank you. I'm flattered. I'll let you know tomorrow.
LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
See John 3:34 God has given the son His Spirit "without measure". This means that the son has been given God's Spirit to the extent that it cannot be measured. God has created all things by His Spirit and the son is that Spirit. the son is then attributed all of creation by the unmeasurable Spirit given to him
Hi Katzpur
I LIKE your reference to the early Judeo-Christian doctrine of the Son as creator under the direction of the Father. I think this early Christian version of the doctrine is more rational and logical than the later Christian theories regarding creation.
1) THE SON (the “only begotten”, the “elect one”, the Fathers “right arm”, etc, etc) AS AN AGENT IN CREATION AND HIS SPECIFIC ROLE IN CREATION.
J. Smith’s creation account says : “And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me. And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth. And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten". (Abr chapt 3, vs 29-33)
While I think the phrase “worlds without number” is a Hebraism meaning “many, many," I think in reality, God is able to number them just as he is able to know when each sparrow falls and "hairs on our heads are numbered" to him (matt 10:30). While the early Jewish commentaries on the midrash explain that nine hundred and eighty four (if my memory is correct) earlier worlds were made (and gradually improved upon and refined), and that this earth was a "new world" in a similar pattern to the other worlds, the early Judeo-Christian texts make clear that it is the mediator/messiah/christ that is the actual Agent of creation (under direction of the Father).
This doctrine that the earth was created by the SON, is reflected in Prayer #4 of Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers where they prayed to the Father : “you are the Father of wisdom, the Creator, as cause, of the creative workmanship through a Mediator...(aposCon 7.35.1-10);
This doctrine is reflected in other Hellenistic Synagogal prayers. #1 (which was said after the communion) reads : ‘We give thanks to you, O God and Father of Jesus our Savior...on behalf of the knowledge and faith and love and immortality which you gave to us through Jesus your Son. O Master Almighty, the God of the universe, you created the world and what is in it through him,...(Apos Con 7.26. 1-3)
As found in the apostolic constitutions, prayer #3 read : “Blessed are you, O Lord, King of the ages, who through Christ made everything, and through him in the beginning ordered that which was unprepared” - (aposCon 7.34.1-8)
Using the common epithet of Jesus as God’s “right hand” Baruch honors God the Father who “with your counsel, you reign over all creation which your right had has created” ("right hand" was another name for the Messiah) The apocalypse of (Baruch 2) 54:13)
In the same manner, Christian Clement speaks of things done by the Father, but THROUGH Jesus as administrator : for example, he refers to God as “the creator of the universe...through his beloved servant Jesus Christ...” and that God calls us from darkness to light “through” Jesus, and he refers to “ those who love you through Jesus Christ, your beloved Servant..” (1 Clem 59:2-3)
The cascade of Authority and direction (to create, to administer, etc) from God the Father, through his Son as Administrator is woven into many ancient teachings and texts.
Prayer #9 describes this cascade of creation by God through the son describing God as “Father of your only Son, our God and Savior, the maker of the whole universe through him; 8 the Administrator, the Guardian, ... (From HELLENISTIC SYNAGOGAL PRAYERS - #9 (AposCon 8.5.1-4)
This pattern follows the same parallels as other Christian texts. For example, in the gospel of Bartholomew, the prayer is to “God, exceeding great and all wise, king of the ages, indescribable, ineffable, .who created the breadths of the heavens by your word …” (i.e. the “logos” who was with God in the Beginning – the Messiah). In the next verse, Jesus is described by Mary, as “the perfect Word of the Father, through whom everything was created." The Gospel of Bartholomew chapt two
Thus Katzpur, I very much like the fact that your interpretive model keeps the SON of God in the ancient role of “creator” and “administrator” for the Father. While much of modern orthodoxy has the Father creating the earth, these ancient Christian texts have the SON create and administrate under the Father’s direction and authority.
Clear
ειτζνεακω
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YeshuaRedeemed
Revelation 3:10
Muffled
Jesus in me
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe since Jesus and the Father are one then by worshiping Jesus we are worshiping the Father.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Why would a Muslim pick a name like Satanism4life? It sounds like you worship Satan. I am pretty sure Muslims do not worship Satan.
LightofTruth
Well-Known Member
There is only one true God and HE is the Father. Until a person comes to this knowledge he will remain blind to the truth. If I were a betting man, I'd bet my life on it.
He did indeed, and better still, he explained it at length in John 17 ─
20 “I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Nothing Trinitarian there, as you can see.
I know. I guess you think they're literally "one." (How is that? If that is true, then who was Jesus praying to all those times? Himself?) You base this view on John 10:30. But read Jesus' prayer at John 17:20-22. They're one in the sense of unity of purpose. So are His disciples. All Jesus' followers can't literally be one.
Unwittingly, though, IMO you are breaking the very first of the 10 Commandments (Exodus 20 3-5)...God requires exclusive devotion, He's "jealous", "does not tolerate rivals (GOD'S WORD Translation)."
But I also know that your pov has been ingrained in you... I think Jehovah will be merciful toward you and so many others during the future resurrection. Life alienated from Jehovah, i.e., life "under the Sun", this currently misled world, will be a thing of the past then.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe that is in agreement with what I just said.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe on the contrary, God being one in me is the Paraclete and third member of the Trinity just as Jesus prayed for it to happen.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe so and have no problem with it.
I believe they are in unity of purpose because they are one but they are not one simply because they in unity of purpose other wise Jesus would have given you that disclaimer , wouldn't He?
I believe since God is one the answer is yes all believes are one in Jesus.
I believe that is false. I worship the one true God and all I have said is evidence of it.
I believe evidently you do not know me well enough. I have nothing ingrained. I simply have allowed Jesus to teach me as I matured in the faith.
As I keep pointing out, history is perfectly clear ─ the Trinity doctrine didn't exist at the time the NT was written, nor for the two centuries following ─ it's the product of fourth century church politics.
And in the words of the church, it's 'a mystery in the strict sense, in that it cannot be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation, nor cogently demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed' ─ which is to say, it's incoherent.
What you choose to believe as a matter of faith is up to you. But please have some respect for history, which deals with matters of fact.
You know how many trinitarians have said that, while at the same time joining their respective countries in conflicts, and killing their trinitarian brothers from other countries?! History is full of it!
Their actions belie their claims.-- Titus 1:16.
If they truly had God's blessing and spirit, they would show love & peace for all their trinitarian brothers. -- Galatians 5:22-23
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe facts can be managed for one's ow benefit.
I believe it doesn't matter when people recognized the Trinity because it was there from the beginning.
I believe I don't find it to be a mystery so saying it is incoherent based on someones false opinion doesn't cut it.