Debate on Abortion.

[kiwimac]

An article I wrote recently for Articlesbase.com

Some groups of Christians are known for their aggressive condemnation of abortion, they yell that an abortion is the ending of a life, an act condemned in the Bible, an affront to God but are they actually speaking the truth?

Believe it or not the Bible only once mentions abortion, the verse is found in Exodus chapter 21 and verses 22-25 which read.

22 And if men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart, and yet no harm follow; he shall be surely fined, according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 But if any harm follow, then thou shalt give life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Ex 21:22-25 (ASV)

It is clear from this verse that damage done to the fetus in the womb (...so that her fruit depart) is not considered murder, it is a civil crime punishable only by a fine but if the woman is harmed then "...But if any harm follow, then thou shalt give life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe..."

However there are other verses that some Christians use to support an anti-abortion stance because they believe they hint at a Biblical condemnation of Abortion, they are as follows:

Psalm 139:13-16 which reads:

13 You alone created my inner being. You knitted me together inside my mother. 14 I will give thanks to you because I have been so amazingly and miraculously made. Your works are miraculous, and my soul is fully aware of this. 15 My bones were not hidden from you when I was being made in secret, when I was being skillfully woven in an underground workshop. 16 Your eyes saw me when I was only a fetus. Every day {of my life} was recorded in your book before one of them had taken place.

Psalms 139:13-16 (GW)

The argument here is that God knits together in the womb each fetus and knows it intimately. However, what the verse is actually referring to is God's call to David to be King of Israel not to anyone or anything else.

Another verse of this kind is found in Jeremiah chapter 1: verses 4-10 in the Old Testament, here Jeremiah comments:

4 The Lord spoke his word to me,
5 “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. Before you were born, I set you apart for my holy purpose. I appointed you to be a prophet to the nations.”
6 I, Jeremiah, said, “Almighty Lord, I do not know how to speak. I am only a boy!” 7 But the Lord said to me, “Don't say that you are only a boy. You will go wherever I send you. You will say whatever I command you to say. 8 Don't be afraid of people. I am with you, and I will rescue you,” declares the Lord. 9 Then the Lord stretched out his hand and touched my mouth. The Lord said to me,
“Now I have put my words in your mouth. 10 Today I have put you in charge of nations and kingdoms. You will uproot and tear down. You will destroy and overthrow. You will build and plant.”

Jer 1:4-10 (GW)

This verse, far from meaning that God knows us in the womb and purposes our existence is plainly about Jeremiah's call to be a prophet, note verse 5b and verse 10, these can only be applied to Jeremiah himself. There is no justification for seeing in these verses the claim that, because God knows us before we are formed in the womb, God hates abortion.

Indeed if you look carefully at the following verses, Leviticus 27:6; Numbers 3:15; Numbers 31:17-18, you will clearly see that, as far as God is concerned, fetuses are not important at all, they are assigned no monetary value for the temple tax, are not counted in the censuses and are presumably ordered killed when their mothers were killed by the victorious Israelite soldiers entering into Canaanite towns and villages.

Moreover under Judaic law fetuses are not considered fully human until they are born. Indeed the great 12th century commentator on the Bible and Talmud, Rashi, says of of the fetus it is 'lav nefesh hu that is, it is not a person.' The Talmud further considers that the fetus is a part of the mother's body by stating 'ubar yerech imo, that is that the fetus is as the thigh of its mother. Part of this opinion is grounded in verses in Exodus 21:22 which passage indicates that while the fetus has value it does not have the status of a person.

I believe that I have shown that the Bible does not at all condemn abortion, it is simply put not there at all. It is wrong of those strident Christians protesting outside clinics to assert that it does. The God of the Bible is concerned with compassion for the actual human beings who walk the earth.

Source:

 

[Daemon Sophic]

An article I wrote recently for Articlesbase.com
....snip....
Source:

There is at least this one other biblical reference (Numbers 5 ). Read particularly beyond 5 : 15. It would appear that not only does the bible address abortion, but it condones it in the case of adultery, and that it is the priests themselves who should administer the abortifacient drug. :yes:

Numbers 5 - Passage*Lookup - New International Version - BibleGateway.com

P.S. - see footnotes E and F in the text.

 

[gabriel_k1]

The abortion issue is really important I think there are always two sides and one side is stronger and the stronger side here is anti-abortion and if the government agrees on banning abortion it willn't be that big of a deal for abortionist but if they keep going with abortions it will mean a big deal to the anti-abortionists. So to keep unity I would vote against abortion.


The Family Planning main objective is promote abortion and supply niave,
and vulnerable women with the options to abort the baby if they want to. I understand
anything is possible but some things are just not an option when there is ethics and
morals in creating a future. It is a misconception that population growth
is negative. If people will have there kids we could get answers to local and
global issues. The need for a legal abortion is not common but it an abortion
has somehow been made commonplace. Planned Parenting is targeting the
lowest class of women. The idealogy of Family Plannings
objective is to kill off "useless feeders". Nobody is against authentic planned Parenting,
everyone should be enlightened that when 2 people copoulate it
consecrates a marraige and is the precurser for parenthood or progonating
the population. but abortion is a medical procedure in event of life-endangering
emergency not a planned parenting option. A pregnant lady
has 9 months to plan for parenting and during that time can get all the support, help, and
relief from counseling during that time. The reason why abortions are the
objective of planned parenthood is because the few million abortion
that occur year are generally going to happen from "at risk" citizen, and
children born from at risk people are prone to become "detriments to society"
and will econimacally and socially be drain to society and if they eliment
the "problem" before it is starts by killing the babies of "at-risk" mothers then
they will not have to pay as much attention
to family and social problem-solving. It's a misconception when people
start rationalizing that a child will not have a good life and deserve the
benefit of doubt.
Also there is the idea that is very much true and used to persuade a pregnant
mother not have a child is that there body and what is growing inside of them
belongs to God and God chooses what happens and maybe God wants to
use the women and the future to person growing inside of her
to serve God (in her belief of God) and humanity and thus be rewarded
for it.

 

[Storm]

The abortion issue is really important I think there are always two sides and one side is stronger and the stronger side here is anti-abortion and if the government agrees on banning abortion it willn't be that big of a deal for abortionist but if they keep going with abortions it will mean a big deal to the anti-abortionists. So to keep unity I would vote against abortion.

1) Pro-choice =/= "abortionist."
2) Where the HELL did you get the idea that banning abortion "wouldn't be a big deal" to pro-choicers?!?!?

As for your copy/ paste drivel, it's pure propaganda not worth the pixels.

 

[imaginaryme]

Anybody ever try reality? Here's a simple home experiment for anyone entangled with questions of morals or emotion. Try to go somewhere, anywhere - and not find life. Supposedly "space is barren, life is precious, Earth is unique;" but all these propositions fly in the face of simple truth. Life isn't precious, it is ubiquitous, it is obnoxious - who here has been out in space, and how many little critters did you take with you?

I am pro-choice. Life can take care of itself.

 

[blackout]

Ok. So let's just say y'all vote and it's made illegal.

What then?

Are you gunna start throwing your daughters in jail
when they go and do it anyway?
(assuming they survive at all)

And for how long will you sentence these (otherwise ordinary) women?
Teens?
Will your daughters get a shorter sentence than your wives?
Will you instate the death penalty? For deliberate murder?

Do not think for a minute that the law will actually stop abortion.
Because it won't.

Legality is one thing.
You can walk around with your signs, and say it's wrong all day and night.
But what are you actually going to DO with all of these female offenders
in your neighborhood... and your own family?

This is not some "platitude".
If your own daughter had an abortion, and was caught...
what is it you think the law should DO to/with her?
How should she be punished for her crime.

 

[McBell]

Ok. So let's just say y'all vote and it's made illegal.

What then?

Are you gunna start throwing your daughters in jail
when they go and do it anyway?
(assuming they survive at all)

And for how long will you sentence these (otherwise ordinary) women?
Teens?
Will your daughters get a shorter sentence than your wives?
Will you instate the death penalty? For deliberate murder?

Do not think for a minute that the law will actually stop abortion.
Because it won't.

Legality is one thing.
You can walk around with your signs, and say it's wrong all day and night.
But what are you actually going to DO with all of these female offenders
in your neighborhood... and your own family?

This is not some "platitude".
If your own daughter had an abortion, and was caught...
what is it you think the law should DO to/with her?
How should she be punished for her crime.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-debates/55300-how-much-time.html#post902497

 

[DallasApple]

UV I think we covered this earlier.

Me and my husband shoud have been put to death..Well I should have been but since he didnt actually have the abortioin he shoud be imprisoned for life.(let him live)

All the do gooders could adopt our children..Or they could reside with the state.

Love

Dallas

 

[blackout]

UV I think we covered this earlier.

Me and my husband shoud have been put to death..Well I should have been but since he didnt actually have the abortioin he shoud be imprisoned for life.(let him live)

All the do gooders could adopt our children..Or they could reside with the state.

Love

Dallas

So the pro-lifer's won't be happy till all the "guilty" mothers are dead along side their babies.
Doubling the death count is a very good strategy for furthering the "pro-life" stance.:sarcastic Wouldn't you say?

Unless of course by pro-life.... we mean "life" in prison.

Can you just imagine the number of imprisoned and "fried" young women
our country would have on their hands?
And how many other women would just simply commit suicide?
(which of course would not save their baby either)
THAT is how EXTREME some women's inability to handle a pregnancy is.

Young people especially, have killed themselves over FAR less.

How is more death, suddenly "pro life"?

 

[blackout]

And what would a "correctional facility" look like?
A birth control education class?

Would they offer to tie "offenders" tubes at taxpayer expense?
(of course if they'd offered that in the first place..... waaaay cheaper than life in prison....)

 

[blackout]

And what of all the parents so completely INTOLLERANT of "pre marital sex"
who make their children completely afraid and unable to come to them.
These same parents who would not take their daughters for birth control.

If their daughter goes to get an illegal abortiion
BECAUSE OF THEM... are they considered "accessory" to the "crime"?

 

[blackout]

How can a country that does not EVEN offer free comprehensive birthcontrol
(including surgery)
to any and every female age 13? and over,
then turn around (in fair minded spirit) and convict women for having abortions?

Yet the people who scream "prosecute the mothers!"
are the very same ones who would scream foul
if the govt. started offering free comprehensive birthcontrol
to all women , age 13 and up, with THEIR tax money.

And WHO is going to raise and love all the unwanted children?

This same group ALSO tends to oppose gay adoption.:sarcastic

Aparantely there are no "moral" solutions to these people
besides incarceration and the death penalty.

When your "morality" has nothing at all to do with "reality"
perhaps that should be a red flag to you.

 

[blackout]

Perhaps more and more frightened women
will suddenly find they are happy living & loving as "lesbian".

How very much safer for us.

 

[imaginaryme]

The whole point is it cannot be made illegal without causing more chaos. One cannot put the genie back in the bottle. As long as the crooked coat hanger is part of the common conception, making abortion illegal is evil - pure and simple. Those who claim to be "pro-life" show their bias through emotional appeal - nobody wants to kill babies - yet those who believe fervently in "pro-life" inevitably allow for "original sin," meaning, when it gets right down to it, they are the only ones advocating infanticide.

The problem here is promiscuity. Many people still operate under the influence of the cultural meme that sex is somehow wrong. Many people stop forming chains of causality with "careless sex leading to junior, and that's it - take care of it." But, in all honesty, to build a chain of cause and effect, one should keep building - and it becomes painfully clear that children should not be raised in a home without love. These same "pro-lifers" turn around and deny their own gospel - spare the rod and spoil the child - and when we have packs of thirteen-year-olds running amok, dealing crack, and driving Mercedes; they turn a blind eye to the very chain of causality they themselves built - and blame "the violence in video games as the sign of the Apocalypse."

And what of prevention? No method is certain. Latex sometimes has holes, pills run at 98%; so the only sure method is abstinence - and see how well that works for the RCC. We enjoy sex because that is the natural order of things; abstinence is unnatural, plain and simple. There is no debate. There is primitive mindsets and finger-pointing in the name of self-righteous prunes who never enjoyed a single day in their lives without imagining some other burning in hell.

There is pro-choice, and there is evil. Simple.

 

[Rightmind]

Four days without internet has put me a little behind in this debate. It's a scary thing going without the web.

No it's not, becuase an employee presumably is a mature sentient human with long term self interest and the capacity to suffer mentally and phsysically. A zygote has none of those capacities. It comes down to the question of "what are the criteria by which we judge a being as deserving moral patiency". Have you thought that through? I'm not being challenging, I'm sincerely asking.

If you allow "potential" into the critera for moral consideration, then I could argue that it was wrong to put Timothy McVeigh to death on the grounds that he had the potential to be a future catholic pope who is dedicated to ending war, but by killing him, we denied "the plan for him to become the peacemaking pope of the future".

I had thought about it prior to determining my stance on the issue of abortion years ago, so no worries there. I believe that all human beings have the right to moral patiency, provided they don't do anything to relinquish that right. McVeigh killed almost 200 people and deserved to be punished for that. A fetus however has committed no crime other than the arguable offense of existing.

Of course, this requires that the fetus be considered a human being, at which point we're brought back to the beginning of our debate and are just running in circles. In the end I don't think it really matters much because the solution to the problem is not to argue endlessly over semantics but to address it head on and look for a common solution.

 

[regulo]

Abotion's ok as long as the kids goin to be sick or like that. Otherwise, I dont no if life can be wasted like that when its like maybe the kid is going to be a great leader or something. Taking the chance away from that kid is selfish I think.

 

[blackout]

Abotion's ok as long as the kids goin to be sick or like that. Otherwise, I dont no if life can be wasted like that when its like maybe the kid is going to be a great leader or something. Taking the chance away from that kid is selfish I think.

And what of the mother?

What if she is not of sound mind to handle a pregnancy?
What if she has health issues that could be dangerous to her own well being,
and as well put her existing family/children in jeapordy,
as she cannot work or even walk for months.
(or maybe not even make it through at all)
What if the pregnancy and birth is too much for her to handle,
and leaves her in a debilitated state.
(After my last two, I could hardly walk, and could only climb the stairs on my knees
for a few months after. It was REALLY hard on me)

It is NOT all about the potential child.
It is ALSO and equally about the mother...
(and the 'potential' mother)...
and the rest of the family as well.

Mostly people think of yourng "unmarried" women having abortions,
but also consider,
When an "older" woman can no longer handle raising babies and young children
she knows it.
This does not mean she should be expected to be celibate.
(these in fact are her prime sexual years)
As well, there is then the issues of giving the child up,
when there are already siblings
who obviously KNOW their mom has given birth.

EDIT: just to add... is a child who would do something "great"
of any more value than a more "ordinary" child?

 

[freethinker44]

Abotion's ok as long as the kids goin to be sick or like that. Otherwise, I dont no if life can be wasted like that when its like maybe the kid is going to be a great leader or something. Taking the chance away from that kid is selfish I think.

Everytime a woman menstruates, a potential leader is literally being flushed down the drain. Should we make menstruation equal to abortion?

 

[Sunstone]

Abotion's ok as long as the kids goin to be sick or like that. Otherwise, I dont no if life can be wasted like that when its like maybe the kid is going to be a great leader or something. Taking the chance away from that kid is selfish I think.

Every sperm is sacred.

 

[regulo]

Everytime a woman menstruates, a potential leader is literally being flushed down the drain. Should we make menstruation equal to abortion?

Your funny