Debate on Abortion.

[Storm]

Dallas, TheKnight has apologized for the statement.

 

[DallasApple]

Dallas, TheKnight has apologized for the statement.

OOPS>..Thanks for letting me know..

:sorry1: the Knight..

Even though I stand by my opinions in general.

Love

Dallas

 

[JeLy]

What I meant is that the "choice" includes the right to decide "no to abortion."

The Pro-life stance does not offer choice.

Here in Florida there is an option to get a license plate supporting one of many causes/organizations with one happening to be the "Choose Life" campaign. I suspect most of the owners of such plates are actually pro-life and not necessarily pro-choice - even though it's evident that it clearly says "choose." I always find that ironic when I see one.

 

[DallasApple]

Here in Florida there is an option to get a license plate supporting one of many causes/organizations with one happening to be the "Choose Life" campaign. I suspect most of the owners of such plates are actually pro-life and not necessarily pro-choice - even though it's evident that it clearly says "choose." I always find that ironic when I see one.

Right it would make more sense to say "dont choose abortion".Because if its illegal to have one in the first place under penalty of the law..women who would have opted for abortion aren't "choosing " life.All they chose (exluding rape of course) was to have sex one time.

Love

Dallas

 

[Draka]

Okay... perhaps you can stick to something. Don't give me other people's arguments if you're just going to say 'oh, those weren't MY idea's' when you can't or don't feel like backing them up.

My point in expressing different ideas was to merely point out that there ARE other ideas and that I recognize that fact. Whether or not I agree with them has nothing to do with it.

I'm not like Kight, I can see situations where that is the case that your own moral code does not need nor should be forced on others, but I'm not like you either, I also admit there are causes that that can't be accepted either, slavery, homicide, child abuse, etc.

Never said those things should be accepted. We are talking about abortion and abortion only. I always wonder why, when talking about one specific subject, others want to bring in completely different topics to compare them to. Apples and oranges. Apples and oranges.

You make a good point, I had not thought about it like that. In theory I agree but this leaves me with unfinished thoughts here. First, most of the people who would be called 'anti-abortion' do not in fact hold that NO pregnancies shall be aborted. There are times when even old fashioned organizations like the catholic chuch recognize abortion is the best option, the typical example being that complications threaten the womans life. So, in effect anti-abortion would no more be the banning of all abortion than pro-abortion would be the call to abort all babbies. Or we could say that neither are apt discriptors, but then neither were the traditional pro-choice/life discriptions.

I'm curious, can anyone think of an all encompussing term for both groups that isnt' misleading?

Pro-legal-abortion/anti-legal-abortion? Still doesn't cover everyone though. Tough one to call really.

I agree that abortion is a uniquely complicated matter, but homicide wasn't compared to abortion per say, it was used to illuminate your argument that no one has the right to force their morality onto another person, dispite the many many examples one can give to the contrary. Also, everything, every issue including homicide, rape, child abuse or what have you can be complicated in the right (or wrong depending on how you look at it) culture or circumstances. You might think what we define as 'homicide' is clear cut, but people from various other time's and cultures would not agree on your definition. At one time, slavery was complicated as well, but it's not now. Perhaps one day we'll get to a point when we as a society do not feel abortion is complicated and there was a difinitive answer.

Basically your entire argument comes down to moral relativism, but selective releativism for this one particular topic only.



'

Again, I am speaking of this one particular topic. I have also explained the thing about laws for society and what a society finds acceptable and so on. However, YES, I am speaking about just abortion here. Silly me, I like to stick directly to the topic at hand.


I must say, I find it kind of silly being analyzed and criticized for holding much the same personal thoughts on abortion as the ones criticizing me, just they seem to have a really hard time with me not wanting to impose those beliefs and thoughts on others and push for laws based on them. I thought I was allowed to have whatever thoughts and reasoning behind those thoughts I wanted to. Silly me for allowing others to have that same right. You are more than welcome to your thoughts and views, I just wonder why I can't have mine AND accept others have different ones.

 

[TheKnight]

This is why you should not have a say in politics or legality.

How sad that you think that. Thank goodness that your vote counts the same as mine does.

That's the problem with Jews, Christians, and Muslims. So many of them think, as you do, that religious freedom is intolerable.

The problem? Is it really a problem to believe that something is morally wrong and say that you think society should not do what is morally wrong?

I find it disturbing that so many people think it's OK to say something is wrong and OK to say that they can do that. In essence, you're saying it's OK to do what is wrong.

The act of "getting pregnant" and the act of carrying a child for 40 weeks and delivering that child are two completely different things.

You can not compare a woman choosing to have sex to her then being held hostage for 40 weeks and forced to deliver a baby against her wishes(because someone else gets to make that choice for her).And then having to choose to give the baby away or keep it and raise it herself.

Refraining from sex is the number one way to avoid pregnancy. One should not have sex if they are not prepared to accept all the consequences that come with sex. That includes having a child. If someone is too enflamed in their passion to stop and think before they act then perhaps they should not be having sex.

If she can't help herself and must have sex, then there are ways which are almost 100% effective in preventing pregnancy. A woman who has sex by choice and gets pregnant as a result (when she didn't want to) was irresponsible. If she really didn't want to get pregnant, she could have made sure that she wouldn't. I'm sorry of you don't agree that it's wrong to allow someone the option of killing a living thing because of their own mistake.

As well as others have mentioned a woman can be forced to have sex resulting in said unwanted pregnancy.

I know this. I think that in cases where rape was involved, the permissibility of an abortion would vary from case to case.

The Pro-life stance does not offer choice.

Standards don't tend to offer the option of breaking the standard. We don't let people murder, we don't let people steal, we don't let people do all sorts of things that they might want to do. We take choices away all the time. This is simply another instance in which I think we should.

You don't agree with taking people's choices away? That's fine, you're entitled to your opinions. I, however, believe that people should be responsible for the decisions they make. I'm not saying abortion is wrong in all cases. But in the simple case of a woman who willingly had sex and doesn't want the child, that is wrong. And in my honest opinion I think she should receive forced sterilization.

 

[TheKnight]

Im sorry this is really getting on my nerves.

Love

Dallas

So, essentially, you believe that if a woman decides to have sex (without first considering all the possible consequences, which include forty grueling weeks of pregnancy) that it's OK for to her to kill something else for her mistake.

That's wrong in my opinion. That's like if I went out and bought a dog without fully thinking about the consequences, and then (because I didn't want the dog) I killed it. After all, buying a dog and taking care of it are two separate things.


Oh, and by the way. If a man has a single sexual encounter, and the woman gets pregnant, I believe that he is obligated (and should be legally) to take care of the child. Even if that means he must become someone's slave to do so. If he refuses, then he should be forced to be sterilized. Pregnancy is a two-part deal between a man and a woman. It's something they should experience together.

 

[DallasApple]

So, essentially, you believe that if a woman decides to have sex (without first considering all the possible consequences, which include forty grueling weeks of pregnancy) that it's OK for to her to kill something else for her mistake.

Yes...essentially that is what I believe.Except foR its not just HER "mistake".

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

That's wrong in my opinion.

That is fine..the next time you get pregnant I will totally respect your opinion that you want to carry a pregnancy for 40 weeks give bitth and then give your child away.

I totally understand .

Love
\

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

That's like if I went out and bought a dog without fully thinking about the consequences, and then (because I didn't want the dog) I killed it. After all, buying a dog and taking care of it are two separate things.

No its not like that.Not to me .

Maybe to you it is.

Not to me though.

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

[QUOTEThat's like if I went out and bought a dog without fully thinking about the consequences,][/QUOTE]

Oh and P.S

When I have sex Im not buying a dog.

Maybe thats the difference between you and I.

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

Oh, and by the way. If a man has a single sexual encounter, and the woman gets pregnant, I believe that he is obligated (and should be legally) to take care of the child.

No..he is not obligated to be pregnant for 40 weeks and give birth.Which you as a man seem to minimize that you are not forced by law to do.

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

You thank God dont write the laws of the land I live in.

YOU thank God can not FORCE me to gestate a child in my body.To my detriment.YOU thank God can not force me to give birth.

People like you are scary who would wish to force me to do so.

And PLEASE NEVER compare a man havign to pay "child support" to a woman carrying and delivering .

Or go ahead.Its laughable.

Love

Dallas

 

[TheKnight]

Yes...essentially that is what I believe.

That's horrible.

[QUOTEThat's like if I went out and bought a dog without fully thinking about the consequences,]

Oh and P.S

When I have sex Im not buying a dog.

Maybe thats the difference between you and I.

Love

Dallas[/quote]

You don't see the connection? I'm not comparing the content of the examples, but the logic behind the actions taken.

No..he is not obligated to be pregnant for 40 weeks and give birth.Which you as a man seem to minimize that you are not forced by law to do.

Blah blah blah. It must be nice to complain about the result of things we cause. If it really is all that terrible, a woman could ensure that she doesn't get pregnant when she has sex.. If she is too lazy to do so, then she deserves to bear the pregnancy.

 

[Storm]

If she is too lazy to do so, then she deserves to bear the pregnancy.

So, children are a punishment?

 

[TheKnight]

So, children are a punishment?

Not at all. They are a blessing. I don't understand how someone could say it's OK to kill a living thing as a result of their own mistake.

 

[DallasApple]

So, children are a punishment?

To women.Yes its seems thats the train of thought.

And thank GOD that people like the knight dont write the laws of my land.

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

Not at all. They are a blessing. I don't understand how someone could say it's OK to kill a living thing as a result of their own mistake.

The same as its O.K to prevent a living thing in order to make the same "mistake".

And you dont "understand" Im sure of that..I believe that much.

Love

Dallas

 

[TheKnight]

The same as its O.K to prevent a living thing in order to make the same "mistake".

And you dont "understand" Im sure of that..I believe that much.

Love

Dallas

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're trying to say.

 

[DallasApple]

Blah blah blah. It must be nice to complain about the result of things we cause. If it really is all that terrible, a woman could ensure that she doesn't get pregnant when she has sex.. If she is too lazy to do so, then she deserves to bear the pregnancy.

No its "not nice".

Niether are you.

Love

Dallas