Debate on hell

[Skywalker]

I believe you can't show any logic that says Heb 9:27 hints against reincarnation. Actually Heb. 9:28 does hint at reincarnation because those "that look for Him" can include those saved in the first century and "He shall appear the second time."

The second coming of Jesus has nothing to do with reincarnation. There is nothing in the Bible that supports reincarnation. The Bible is the only book we need for answers. People's opinions are fallible. The only one we can trust is God.

 

[FineLinen]

"Who, after all, is saying something more objectively atrocious, or more aggressively perverse. The person who claims that every newborn infant enters the world justly under the threat of eternal dereliction, and that a good God imposes or permits the imposition of a state of eternal agony on finite, created rational beings as part of the mystery of his love or sovereignty or justice? Or the person who observes that such ideas are cruel and barbarous and depraved. Which of these two should really be, if not ashamed of his or her words, at least hesitant, ambivalent, and even a little penitent in uttering them. And which has a better right to moral indignation at what the other has said? And, really, don't these questions answer themselves?

A belief does not merit unconditional reverence just because it is old, nor should it be immune to being challenged in terms commensurate to the scandal it seems to pose.

And the belief that a God of infinite intellect, justice, love, and power would condemn rational beings to a state of perpetual torment, or would allow them to condemn themselves on account of their own delusion, pain, and anger, is probably worse than merely scandalous. It may be the single most horrid notion the religious imagination has ever conceived, and the most irrational and spiritually corrosive picture of existence possible. And anyone who thinks that such claims are too strong or caustic, while at the same time finding the traditional notion of a hell of everlasting suffering perfectly unobjectionable, needs to consider whether he or she is really thinking clearly about the matter at all. -David Bentley Hart

 

[We Never Know]

I see this is still a hot topic

 

[FineLinen]

"For too long, we've called unbelievers to 'invite Jesus into your life.' Jesus doesn't want to be in your life. Your life is a wreck. Jesus calls you into his life. And his life isn't boring or purposeless or static. It's wild and exhilarating and unpredictable." -Russell D. Moore

 

[FineLinen]

 

[FineLinen]

Questions ? ? ?

Since we are required to love our enemies, may we not safely infer that God loves His enemies? (Matt. 5:44)

If God loves His enemies, will He punish them more than will be for their good?

Would endless punishment be for the good of any being?

Since God loves His friends, if He loves His enemies also, are not all mankind the objects of His love?

If God loves those only who love Him, what better is He than the sinner? (Luke 6:32-33)

Since "love thinketh no evil," can God design the ultimate evil of a single soul? (1 Cor. 13:5)

Since "love worketh no ill," can God inflict, or cause, or allow to be inflicted, an endless ill? (Rom. 13:10)

Since we are forbidden to be overcome by evil, can we safely suppose that God will be overcome by evil? (Rom. 12:21)

Would not the infliction of endless punishment prove that God had been overcome by evil?

If man does wrong in returning evil for evil, would not God do wrong if He was to do the same?

Would not endless punishment be the return of evil for evil?

Since we are commanded "to overcome evil with good," may we not safely infer that God will do the same? (Rom. 12:21)

Would the infliction of endless punishment be overcoming evil with good?


"The current Evangelical Theology involves in its system belief in the deathlessness of sin, the indestructibility of error, and permanence of evil. That though there was a time in the history of the universe when sin in any shape or form did not exist, when no cry of pain or sense of guilt darkened the all-extensive bliss and holiness of creation, yet since sin has once effected an entrance into such a scene, it has come in never to go out again, indestructible, unconquerable, ineradicable, endless. Absolute happiness and sinlessness have forever vanished like the phantom of a dream. The "eternal state" is a universe endlessly finding room for myriads of souls rolling and writhing in the burning agonies of ceaseless flame, eternally sinful, vile and morally hideous. It pictures the final perfection yet to be attained as having room for a vast cesspool of immoral and degraded beings, continually existing in opposition to God." -Vladimir Gelesnoff

 

[Skywalker]

Questions ? ? ?

Since we are required to love our enemies, may we not safely infer that God loves His enemies? (Matt. 5:44)

If God loves His enemies, will He punish them more than will be for their good?

Would endless punishment be for the good of any being?

Since God loves His friends, if He loves His enemies also, are not all mankind the objects of His love?

If God loves those only who love Him, what better is He than the sinner? (Luke 6:32-33)

Since "love thinketh no evil," can God design the ultimate evil of a single soul? (1 Cor. 13:5)

Since "love worketh no ill," can God inflict, or cause, or allow to be inflicted, an endless ill? (Rom. 13:10)

Since we are forbidden to be overcome by evil, can we safely suppose that God will be overcome by evil? (Rom. 12:21)

Would not the infliction of endless punishment prove that God had been overcome by evil?

If man does wrong in returning evil for evil, would not God do wrong if He was to do the same?

Would not endless punishment be the return of evil for evil?

Since we are commanded "to overcome evil with good," may we not safely infer that God will do the same? (Rom. 12:21)

Would the infliction of endless punishment be overcoming evil with good?


"The current Evangelical Theology involves in its system belief in the deathlessness of sin, the indestructibility of error, and permanence of evil. That though there was a time in the history of the universe when sin in any shape or form did not exist, when no cry of pain or sense of guilt darkened the all-extensive bliss and holiness of creation, yet since sin has once effected an entrance into such a scene, it has come in never to go out again, indestructible, unconquerable, ineradicable, endless. Absolute happiness and sinlessness have forever vanished like the phantom of a dream. The "eternal state" is a universe endlessly finding room for myriads of souls rolling and writhing in the burning agonies of ceaseless flame, eternally sinful, vile and morally hideous. It pictures the final perfection yet to be attained as having room for a vast cesspool of immoral and degraded beings, continually existing in opposition to God." -Vladimir Gelesnoff

When Jesus said love your enemies he wasn't talking about universalism. He was talking about loving one another and not judging. Matthew 5:43-45

You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor’ and ‘Hate your enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Even those who reject God still have God's presence in this life. They live in a world that is not hell. Hell on Trial by John Blanchard

Although God shows His love by pouring out His common grace on all people—“He makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust” (Matt. 5:45)—we dare not confuse this with the saving grace that enables sinners to see their desperate danger and to turn to God in repentance and faith. Those who see God’s love as eliminating hell are ignoring God’s justice and the fundamental fact that He “will by no means clear the guilty” (Ex. 34:7). As Packer says, “It is not possible to argue that a God who is love cannot also be a God who condemns and punishes the disobedient.”

Many reject biblical teaching on hell by claiming that condemning all unforgiven sinners to eternal punishment in hell violates the principle that a penalty should always fit the crime. How, they ask, can God punish a mere earthly lifetime of sin with suffering that lasts forever? Surely those who lead reasonably respectable lives will not be treated in the same way as mass murderers, rapists, child abusers, and the like? Both questions have straightforward answers. In the first case, time spent committing a crime is usually irrelevant in determining the sentence. For example, a violent, life-threatening assault may be over in less than a minute, but would less than a minute in jail be the right sentence for such a crime? In the second case, there are no “little sins,” because there is no little God to sin against.

 

[FineLinen]

When Jesus said love your enemies he wasn't talking about universalism. He was talking about loving one another and not judging. Matthew 5:43-45

Jesus the Christ declares we are to love our enemies, Sky. God loves His enemies and will bring every one of them to change and transformation.

Please welcome the hornets

 

[Skywalker]

Jesus the Christ declares we are to love our enemies, Sky. God loves His enemies and will bring every one of them to change and transformation.

Please welcome the hornets

Hell is eternal separation from God. If people don't want anything to do with God here, why would they be with God in the afterlife? Does God love the people who are in hell? | GotQuestions.org

From an absolute standpoint, it is good for the creature and Creator to be united, such as it was in the beginning (Genesis 1—2). Sin causes a fracture in that union. Sin can thus be seen as the inward turning away of creatures from their own good. Habitual sin becomes a reinforcing cycle of bending away from God. Without the healing and redemptive love of Christ bending the creatures back toward God, they will persist in their ruinous state. The creature can come to hate God in that he chooses to love himself and seek everything but God despite the reconciling goodness and grace extended to him in countless ways.

God loves His creation—His nature is love—but this love manifests itself differently to the impenitent creature than to the penitent. It is the same love, experienced from two perspectives. As an analogy, two people outside on a bright, sunny day can have very different experiences, if one is in the sunshine and the other is in the shadow. In both cases, the sun is the same; it is the experience of the creatures that is different, depending on their situation relative to the sun. In a similar way, the creaturely experience of God is different in hell than it is in heaven. Instead of experiencing the fullness of God’s grace, one gets the fullness of divine wrath.

 

[FineLinen]

Hell is eternal separation from God. If people don't want anything to do with God here, why would they be with God in the afterlife? Does God love the people who are in hell? | GotQuestions.org

Sky: The Author & Finisher is not only the Source of the all, He is the Goal of the all.

Welcome to ta panta

By these three prepositions Paul ascribes the universe (ta panta) with all the phenomena concerning creation, redemption, providence to God as the....

Ex= The Source

Di= The Agent

Eiv= The Goal

The Koine, ta pavnte, is the strongest word for all in the Scriptures; it literally means the all.

ta pavnte/ ta panta, in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the all things, the universe, and, everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.

**It is not in the limited sense of nearly all, pavnte minus ta

The final preposition [eiv) reveals the ultimate goal of all that is. What has been provided in Christ is a re-turn, a re-storation, a re-newing, a re-demption, a re-concilation, a re-surrection, a re-stitution.

The prefix re means back again, again, anew and all the words with this prefix speak of something that left its place and has now made its circuit and come back to the point of its beginning.

 

[Skywalker]

Sky: The Author & Finisher is not only the Source of the all, He is the Goal of the all.

Welcome to ta panta

The goal of all people should be to have seek God and strive, but some people suppress that desire that God put in each one of us. The Case for Faith: Objection #6 | Satisfaction Through Christ

Dr. Moreland’s first point after his and Strobel’s introductory conversation is thatGod doesn’t torture people in hell. God has made us creatures with free will and if we continuously live without our creator’s purposes for us in mind, we will eventually get what we’ve asked for, which is separation from God. That is hell. He then states that God is not simply a loving being, especially if the meaning of “loving” is taken from current society’s meaning. “Yes, God is a compassionate being, but he’s also a just, moral, and pure being. So God’s decisions are not based on modern American sentimentalism. This is one of the reasons why people have never had a difficult time with the idea of hell until modern times. People today tend to care only for the softer virtues like love and tenderness, while they’ve forgotten the hard virtues of holiness, righteousness, and justice.”

Dr. Moreland continues to elaborate on the intrinsic nature of hell, which he says is relational in essence. “Actually, hell was not part of the original creation. Hell is God’s fall-back position. Hell is something God was forced to make because people chose to rebel against him and turn against what was best for them and the purpose for which they were created.” The punishment endured in hell is not that of torture but of separation from God, “bringing shame, anguish, and regret.” Although it is a just punishment, it is also “the natural consequence of a life that has been lived in a certain direction.”

 

[FineLinen]

The goal of all people should be to have seek God and strive, but some people suppress that desire that God put in each one of us.

Welcome to our Father's hornets!

 

[Skywalker]

Welcome to our Father's hornets!

People mistaken the desire to have a relationship with God with things like following religious traditions. Where does the concept of a "God-shaped hole" originate?

In 1670, Blaise Pascal published Pensées, which was a defense of the Christian religion. (It should be noted that this book was published after his death in 1662. In that book, he has a quote: “What else does this craving, and this helplessness, proclaim but that there was once in man a true happiness, of which all that now remains is the empty print and trace? This he tries in vain to fill with everything around him, seeking in things that are not there the help he cannot find in those that are, though none can help, since this infinite abyss can be filled only with an infinite and immutable object; in other words by God himself.” - Blaise Pascal, Pensées VII(425) Since then, the concept has taken on a life of its own and the phrase "God-shaped hole," a close approximation of the concept, has been found throughout many Christian circles. (Recently, in 2002, a book was published with the title 'God-Shaped Hole'.) While other answers show that the concept can be supported biblically, the concept that there is a void/vacuum/hole is actually a non-biblical one.

 

[FineLinen]

Evil, being negative, as is punishment, neither can stand eternal. –John Scotus Erigena

Reason teaches us that Good having a divine Principle, ought to be stronger than Evil, which is essentially nothing but Disorder and Depravation; that Evil putting man into a State of Violence, that State cannot continue for ever; that this State of Violence supposes its contrary in Man, struggling against it…that God being the God of Order, and the undoubted Sovereign of the Universe, can never consent that Disorder and Confusion should prevail there for ever. --Marie Huber, Swiss Protestant Theologian

How could the Bible possibly speak of the perfect victory of God our Creator who loves righteousness and cannot bear evil, if that victory really means that He cannot bring His own creatures at last to hate evil as He hates it, but must confirm multitudes, indeed the majority of them, in their choice of evil for ever and ever?... What sort of victory is it to be able only to subdue evil and prevent it harming any but those who choose it, and to be unable to bring human souls to abominate it and desire to forsake it, so that the evil itself ceases to exist?... –Hannah Hurnard

To say that sin, assuming it to be opposed to God, has the power of creating a world antagonistic to God as everlasting as He is, attributes to it a power equal at least to His; since according to this view, souls whom God willed to be saved, and for whom Christ died, are held in bondage under the power of sin for ever; and all this in opposition to the Word of God, which says that God's Son was "manifested that He might destroy the works of the devil..." --Andrew Jukes

To go on punishing for ever, simply for punishment's sake, shocks every sentiment of justice. And the case is so much worse when the punishment is really the prolongation of evil, when it is but making evil endless. --Thomas Allin (Christ Triumphant)

 

[Skywalker]

Evil, being negative, as is punishment, neither can stand eternal. –John Scotus Erigena

Reason teaches us that Good having a divine Principle, ought to be stronger than Evil, which is essentially nothing but Disorder and Depravation; that Evil putting man into a State of Violence, that State cannot continue for ever; that this State of Violence supposes its contrary in Man, struggling against it…that God being the God of Order, and the undoubted Sovereign of the Universe, can never consent that Disorder and Confusion should prevail there for ever. --Marie Huber, Swiss Protestant Theologian

How could the Bible possibly speak of the perfect victory of God our Creator who loves righteousness and cannot bear evil, if that victory really means that He cannot bring His own creatures at last to hate evil as He hates it, but must confirm multitudes, indeed the majority of them, in their choice of evil for ever and ever?... What sort of victory is it to be able only to subdue evil and prevent it harming any but those who choose it, and to be unable to bring human souls to abominate it and desire to forsake it, so that the evil itself ceases to exist?... –Hannah Hurnard

To say that sin, assuming it to be opposed to God, has the power of creating a world antagonistic to God as everlasting as He is, attributes to it a power equal at least to His; since according to this view, souls whom God willed to be saved, and for whom Christ died, are held in bondage under the power of sin for ever; and all this in opposition to the Word of God, which says that God's Son was "manifested that He might destroy the works of the devil..." --Andrew Jukes

To go on punishing for ever, simply for punishment's sake, shocks every sentiment of justice. And the case is so much worse when the punishment is really the prolongation of evil, when it is but making evil endless. --Thomas Allin (Christ Triumphant)

When people do something wrong, don't they go to jail? There are consequences, even with the most fair judge. God is love, but God is also just. Even the most fair judge has to punish someone who did something wrong. Just like we have earthly laws that we are supposed to follow, God has laws. God is against sin because sin separates people from God. When people sin, they harm themselves and God. Rob Bell: Populating Hell | Good Fight Ministries

Of course, if you are a Universalist like Bell, you are ignoring Christ’s warnings of the eternality of Hell and His call to holiness and the narrow road. You are misleading the masses and providing them with a false hope that they will one day get to Heaven… eventually.

For Rob Bell, the gate to eternal life is broad. Bell states in Love Wins, “What Jesus does is declare that he, and he alone, is saving everybody. And then he leaves the door way, way open.” According to Bell, so broad and wide is the narrow road, that you can take the broad road to Hell with the assurance that Jesus continues to “leave the door way, way open” until you decide to take the wide gate into Heaven. Contrasting this to the teachings of Jesus, this is an outright lie and a major deception!

False Prophets Among Us

It is a sobering thought that Jesus went on to state in the verses immediately following His teaching on the narrow and broad roads, that false prophets would come in sheep’s clothing (Matthew 7:15-21). Such false prophets stand at the cross roads between the broad and narrow road, claiming to represent Christ, while pointing their followers toward the broad road that leads destruction, assuring them that it eventually leads to Heaven. Consider this for a minute. Isn’t this exactly what Rob Bell is doing?

The Lord warned us in His Word that we are to earnestly contend for the faith, for false prophets would come and turn the grace of God into a license to sin (Jude 1:4). Rob Bell is turning the finished work of Christ into an open sesame, a license to sin with impunity in this life while guaranteeing a shot at Heaven after spending time in Hell!

Bell teaches, “Forgiveness is unilateral. God isn’t waiting for us to get it together, to clean up, shape up, get up—God has already done it” (p. 189). He deceptively claims that you don’t need to do anything right now, you can simply live like hell and cash your check after you die and go to eternal bliss!

 

[FineLinen]

Sky: If you think for a nano- second our heavenly Father, the Father of all fathers, torments His children (or His enemies), you are sadly mistaken!

His Name is ABBA, dearest Daddy. He punishes, but punishment is NOT the goal, but rather change & correction.

You evidently must find another Breast to lean upon!

 

[Muffled]

The second coming of Jesus has nothing to do with reincarnation. There is nothing in the Bible that supports reincarnation. The Bible is the only book we need for answers. People's opinions are fallible. The only one we can trust is God.

I believe it is a shame that you don't know the Bible and don't know God either or you would know there is reincarnation.

 

[Muffled]

"For too long, we've called unbelievers to 'invite Jesus into your life.' Jesus doesn't want to be in your life. Your life is a wreck. Jesus calls you into his life. And his life isn't boring or purposeless or static. It's wild and exhilarating and unpredictable." -Russell D. Moore

I believe if Jesus can manage to be on the cross , He can manage to be in our lives.

 

[FineLinen]

I believe if Jesus can manage to be on the cross , He can manage to be in our lives.

Have no fear! He manages all things well. Rather than a fallen individual having Jesus Christ in their life, He expands the horizon of the happening of bringing that one into His.

 

[FineLinen]

Everlasting Punishment

The five (5) qualifications for aionios kolasis/ everlasting punishment according to the Master of reconciliation =

1.________________?

2.________________?

3.________________?

4.________________?

5.________________?

1. I was an hungry, and you gave me no meat.
   
   
2. I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink.
   
   
3. I was a stranger, and you took me not in.
   
   
4. I was naked, and you clothed me not.
   
   
5. I was sick, and in prison, and you visited me not.