Default position

[Quintessence]

@Xavier Graham - why talk about a "default position" to begin with? What does that mean? Is it important? Why?

Personally, I think that's overthinking things. Just be who you are. One cannot be otherwise, after all. Just be. And if others don't get you, that's fine.

 

[Trailblazer]

There are reasons for believing. Perhaps rational ones. But often not. Many believe out of convenience. Some out of fear.

That's probably true. Many believe out of convenience. Some out of fear. But that does not mean that other people do not believe for rational reasons.

Maybe religion and spirituality is biologically ingrained in us, explaining why most rational humans can hold a possibly irrational belief.

I disagree. I don't believe that anyone is born with a predilection to believe in God, religion, or spirituality. I believe that people simply reason differently, according to their their personal life experiences and education.

 

[an anarchist]

@Xavier Graham - why talk about a "default position" to begin with? What does that mean? Is it important? Why?

Personally, I think that's overthinking things. Just be who you are. One cannot be otherwise, after all. Just be. And if others don't get you, that's fine.

Well tbh, often times I create threads when I should instead be studying or something else lol. Like, when I created this thread, it was when I was cooking at work and I just didn't want to be at work. So I racked my brain for a thread topic idea while there and here we are. I have better thread ideas when I read more, I'll get there.

So, to answer your question, I mainly ask for the sake of conversation, at least in this case. It may not be the most important of questions, but I do get enlightening responses, such as yours :0

So this thread is the result of overthinking, rather, forced thinking. Not all my threads are, but this one is. I talk to talk sometimes lol

 

[Trailblazer]

Let's go back to that 93% figure.

We know that when you say "Messengers of God", you are talking about prophets that are canon in Bahai theology.

I don't feel like pulling up the figures, but do 93% of people believe in the prophets of Bahai theology? I don't think so

84 percent of the world population has a faith and because most faiths have a religious Founder (or what I call a Messenger) that means most people believe in God because of a Messenger. It does not matter if you call them a Messenger; they are holy men who founded the religions, so they are intermediaries between God and man. Sure, there are a few believers who believe in God but not a Messenger but that is not the norm.

The point is that with no men who act as "intermediaries" between God and man very few people would believe in God. I believe the Messengers are the evidence that God exists because God sent them as evidence.

And those who believe in Krishna for example, I'm sure most of them (Hindus) view evidence of god very differently than how you suppose it.

Krishna is their holy man, their intermediary between God and themselves.

i just disagree with your phrasing I guess "the only evidence that God provides"

There is other evidence, since God's Creation is evidence, but it is not direct evidence of God. Moreover, it is possible for Creation to exist even if there was no God, so that is not reliable evidence.

 

[ratiocinator]

I said: "It makes no sense that the 93% of people who believe in God are all into magical thinking."

Which implies that you think they are right and since you mentioned the percentage, you think that is relevant. So it's pretty much identical to

"God exists is true because many or most people believe in God,"

 

[AppieB]

There is a good reason to believe God is exists because there is evidence, but evidence is not proof unless it is verifiable, and there is no verifiable evidence for God, thus there is no proof that God exists.

God could only be proven to exist if God proved that He exists, but God does not do that since God wants us to look at the evidence that God provides and have faith.

So what is the evidence?

 

[Mock Turtle]

More likely the majority see the only evidence that God provides, the Messengers of God.

And obviously having the ability to weed the genuine prophets from the fakes - what lovely experts most are.

 

[an anarchist]

So what is the evidence?

 

[Trailblazer]

Which implies that you think they are right and since you mentioned the percentage, you think that is relevant. So it's pretty much identical to

What I think doesn't matter.
I did not say "God exists is true because many or most people believe in God," since that would be ad populum.

In fact, I believe that "God exists is not true because many or most people believe in God."
I believe that God exists is true because there is evidence for God's existence.

 

[ratiocinator]

I believe that God exists is true because there is evidence for God's existence.

Oh good. Where? (And no, people who claim to be 'messengers' and other people who think they are is not evidence of a god.)

 

[Trailblazer]

And obviously having the ability to weed the genuine prophets from the fakes - what lovely experts most are.

Weeding the genuine prophets from the fakes is not that hard if one uses a set of criteria to identify the genuine prophets and eliminate the fakes.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Weeding the genuine prophets from the fakes is not that hard if one uses a set of criteria to identify the genuine prophets and eliminate the fakes.

Did a prophet give out the rules?

 

[Trailblazer]

Oh good. Where? (And no, people who claim to be 'messengers' and other people who think they are is not evidence of a god.)

The messengers are the evidence, not because they made a claim or because people think they are, but because God sent them.
The messengers provided evidence that backed up their claims. God does not expect people in His messengers without evidence.

 

[Trailblazer]

Did a prophet give out the rules?

As a matter of fact, He did. He told us what criteria we are to use in order to identify a true prophet. Do you want to see it?

 

[ratiocinator]

The messengers are the evidence, not because they made a claim or because people think they are, but because God sent them.

Begging the question - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The messengers provided evidence that backed up their claims.

Okay, so we're back to asking what evidence?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

but just becaue you (and other atheists) are not convinced that the evidence is 'good enough' that does not mean the evidence is not good.

Who decides what is good evidence?

You (and other atheists) do deny the evidence that God provides, which is the messengers of God.

No, I do not deny any evidence. I think the evidence presented is insufficient for belief for many logical reasons.

but 93% of people do not believe in leprechauns since there is no evidence that leprechauns exist.
93% of people believe in God because there is evidence that God exists.

Not my point. At one time most people believed the earth was flat based on the evidence they had. Were they right?

 

[Mock Turtle]

As a matter of fact, He did. He told us what criteria we are to use in order to identify a true prophet. Do you want to see it?

I'd prefer some independent validator personally - given that so many are self-serving. Such that why would I or anyone believe any individual in such things other than being as personal preference?

 

[ratiocinator]

As a matter of fact, He did. He told us what criteria we are to use in order to identify a true prophet.

Great. So you have to first believe somebody is a prophet before you get the criteria, from said prophet, to determine who is a prophet or not. Do you not see a tiny bit of a potential problem with that?

 

[Trailblazer]

Okay, so we're back to asking what evidence?

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

 

[ratiocinator]

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

Where's the evidence? Bold claims are not evidence. Character is not evidence. "Fulfilled prophecy" give me a break, seriously?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. This isn't even run of the mill, everyday evidence.