Default position

[ratiocinator]

There are two sides to every coin. You do not know that there is nothing remotely specific enough in it that could be unambiguously recognized later unless you know what happened later, and of course what is unambiguous is a judgment call.

Of course you can tell from the supposed prophecy if its specific enough. We are looking for extraordinary evidence (to avoid false positives) so we'd need something like "On Wednesday the 3rd of May 2023....", well, okay, I'd settle for "In exactly 2025 years from now, in the spring...", followed by an equally unambiguous description of events.

God is the most manifest of the manifest and the most hidden of the hidden, but only God's essence is hidden.

Contradictions are just that. They are not profound as some people seem to think.

God did make Himself known, just not in the way you want Him to, but an omnipotent God takes no orders from humans for obvious logical reasons.

No god has made itself known to me. All I can see is endless ordinary humans with different (and contradictory) religious views.

It is no skin off God's nose if you choose not to look at the evidence that God provides...

I see nothing remotely resembling evidence to look at.

...since God needs of nobody's belief, since God is self-sufficient and self-sustaining.

I don't need a god that plays silly games. I wouldn't trust such a being to keep its promises anyway, even if I thought for a moment it might actually exist.

 

[Jedster]

Begging the question - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Okay, so we're back to asking what evidence?

Seems like a recursive loop to me.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Well, then show this evidence to us.

ciao

- viole

Well, I have never see evidence, so I can't show it to you. Just as I have never seen God, so I can't show God to you.
We are playing cognitive constructs and they all have limits, not just God but also evidence. But I can't show you that. You either get that or get it differently.

 

[viole]

Well, I have never see evidence, so I can't show it to you. Just as I have never seen God, so I can't show God to you.
We are playing cognitive constructs and they all have limits, not just God but also evidence. But I can't show you that. You either get that or get it differently.

yes, their main limit is that they are just claimed.

And everybody can claim everything.

ciao

- viole

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

yes, their main limit is that they are just claimed.

ciao

- viole

Well, I have no evidence as per objective evidence that I can do anything subjective, but I am going to do it anyway.
I deny that all of the world for humans can be done with objective evidence and logic alone. Now the joke is that for certain aspects of the world I can in fact do that and I have just done so.
And if you subjectively deny that, you are subjective and without evidence. Go figure.

 

[viole]

Well, I have no evidence as per objective evidence that I can do anything subjective, but I am going to do it anyway.
I deny that all of the world for humans can be done with objective evidence and logic alone. Now the joke is that for certain aspects of the world I can in fact do that and I have just done so.
And if you subjectively deny that, you are subjective and without evidence. Go figure.

Things are called subjective only because we do not have the technology yet to trace what happens inside human brains. When we will have that, everything which was subjective will become objective.

ciao

- viole

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Things are called subjective only because we do not have the technology yet to trace what happens inside human brains. When we will have that, everything which was subjective will become objective.

ciao

- viole

Yeah, that is your belief for which you have no evidence. So you are an irrational believer like the rest of us.

 

[viole]

Yeah, that is your belief for which you have no evidence. So you are an irrational believer like the rest of us.

I suggest to ingest 100 Gammel Dansk Fläschen and tell me what happens to your dualistic subjectivity

ciao

- viole

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I suggest to ingest 100 Gammel Dansk Fläschen and tell me what happens to your dualistic subjectivity

ciao

- viole

If everything can be done objectively, then I can't subjectively choose to write no, so I didn't chose to write no.
You are potentially dangerous because you confuse a social we with the we of all humans and then you deny, when you are subjective as you just were above in your answer.
So tell me, if you can ever learn to do meta-cognition for your subjectivity or you will be forever subjectively believing you are objectively rational all the time.

So learn to spot subjectivity in yourself or don't. That is on you.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Whoever is evaluating the evidence.
The evidence is objective but whether it is good enough or not is subjective.

I 100% agree.

I think the evidence presented is sufficient for belief for many logical reasons.
What are the logical reasons why you consider the evidence insufficient?

What evidence are you talking about?

I don't see how that is relevant to my point that 93% of people believe in God because there is evidence that God exists.
All those people did not just decide that believing in God was a good idea absent any evidence.

I agree, but as I said 93% of people can believe the evidence is good enough for belief and the belief be false such as flat earth. Most people believe in a god because they want to for various reasons not because the evidence is good enough for belief. The evidence for tis is that most evidence I hear people use for their belief could be applied to other gods as well. Such as personal experience.

 

[Trailblazer]

As long as you in effect claim and/or logic for what you claim with evidence for One God for all humans, you are playing rationalism. And it follows that because it is for all humans that there is this One God, then everybody who do that differently are not using the correct reason and/or logic.

I am using my rational mind and they are using their rational mind, because we were all created with a rational soul.
The mind is the power of the human spirit (rational soul). The soul is like a lamp and the mind is the light that shines through the lamp.

Other people simply come to different conclusions than I come to, using their rational minds, since all humans have different information in their brains which determine how their mind operates.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, of course I have considered this, but the consequences of the prophets and so many different religious beliefs might imply that any God has some questionable properties (given the carnage that has occurred over history), as so many have often pointed out, and/or who just doesn't care about loss of life - even if we do. Why posit anything in this case if life has no value to any God or just for those this God chooses? One could make up all sorts of possible and believable scenarios but none being true.

Or it might imply that God has revealed everything that is necessary to resolve the conflicts and religious people just don't want what God has revealed. Since they are attached to their older religions, they refuse the new religion God has revealed. How is that God's fault?
God cares, but God is not going to override human free will to make people believe in the new religion.

No idea as to what any God could do, given I don't tend to believe in such an existence and also don't tend to imagine as to such scenarios.

Based upon omnipotence God could do anything, but God does not do everything God could do. God only does what God chooses to do.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, then show this evidence to us.

I already have, dozens of times...
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I am using my rational mind and they are using their rational mind, because we were all created with a rational soul.
The mind is the power of the human spirit (rational soul). The soul is like a lamp and the mind is the light that shines through the lamp.

Other people simply come to different conclusions than I come to, using their rational minds, since all humans have different information in their brains which determine how their mind operates.

Yeah, so rationally there is no One True God since we all do it differently.

 

[Trailblazer]

Of course you can tell from the supposed prophecy if its specific enough. We are looking for extraordinary evidence (to avoid false positives) so we'd need something like "On Wednesday the 3rd of May 2023....", well, okay, I'd settle for "In exactly 2025 years from now, in the spring...", followed by an equally unambiguous description of events.

You will settle for? You will get what you get from the prophets. You don't order up prophecies like a burger at a restaurant.
Some prophecies contain an unambiguous description of events and if you put those together with other prophecies you get the timeline.

A New Understanding of the Perplexing Prophecies of Daniel

Of all the Hebrew prophets, perhaps Daniel is the most enigmatic. Biblical researchers and scholars rarely agree about any aspect of the book of Daniel, not even the dates when...

bahaiteachings.org

Contradictions are just that. They are not profound as some people seem to think.

There is no contradiction because God's existence and attributes are not hidden, only God's essence is hidden. That is what Baha'u'llah meant when He said that God is the most manifest of the manifest and the most hidden of the hidden.

No god has made itself known to me. All I can see is endless ordinary humans with different (and contradictory) religious views.

God is not going to make Himself known to you personally. You have to look at what God has revealed to know if God exists.

I see nothing remotely resembling evidence to look at.

The Messengers of God are the evidence, you can take it or leave it.
What else could you expect? We are humans so we can only understand other humans, we cannot understand God directly, period.

The Messengers of God have a twofold nature, so they are both divine and human, which is why they can understand God and humans and act as intermediaries between God and humans.

I don't need a god that plays silly games. I wouldn't trust such a being to keep its promises anyway, even if I thought for a moment it might actually exist.

There are no games, only Progressive Revelation from God.

The Baha’i Concept of Progressive Revelation

The process of humankind’s spiritual evolution continues because God sends messengers to humanity from time to time. That concept, called progressive revelation, underpins the Baha’i teachings. These periodic messengers, known...

bahaiteachings.org

 

[Trailblazer]

Yeah, so rationally there is no One True God since we all do it differently.

I didn't say that. There is either One True God or not, that is reality....
What people believe does not determine reality.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I didn't say that. There is either One True God or not, that is reality....
What people believe does not determine reality.

So no evidence or anything else.

 

[Trailblazer]

What evidence are you talking about?

The Messengers of God.

I agree, but as I said 93% of people can believe the evidence is good enough for belief and the belief be false such as flat earth.

It is hypothetically that 93% of people are all wrong and there is no God, but it is more likely that there is a God and people all believe different things about that God since they all have different backgrounds and different religions.

Most people believe in a god because they want to for various reasons not because the evidence is good enough for belief. The evidence for tis is that most evidence I hear people use for their belief could be applied to other gods as well. Such as personal experience.

I agree. Most people don't think in terms of evidence, they simply believe what they were brought up to believe and/or what appeals to them, and some believers imagine things about God from their personal experience, like believing that God is talking to them.

 

[Trailblazer]

So no evidence or anything else.

There is evidence, the Messengers of God.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

There is evidence, the Messengers of God.

I have different evidence, so there are at least two One True God.