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Defending Dharmik Traditions

तत्त्वप्रह्व

स्वभावस्थं निरावेशम्

RedDragon94

Love everyone, meditate often
Please support this petition by voicing your protest against intellectual fiefdom by western vested interests.

https://www.change.org/p/publishers...-that-seek-to-compromise-intellectual-freedom

For more background:

http://www.firstpost.com/ideas/wend...harge-rajiv-malhotra-red-herring-2349804.html

श्रीकृष्णार्पणमस्तु ।
This just shows that the academic world has no respect for spirituality.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Allegations of plagerism aside, what are the substantive objections to Malhotra's conclusions or methodology?
I need more information before I throw in with one side or the other. The complaints I'm reading in your link sound a bit like the protests I hear from climate change deniers and young-Earth promoters.
 

तत्त्वप्रह्व

स्वभावस्थं निरावेशम्
This just shows that the academic world has no respect for spirituality.
Well, in this case though, it is mostly a continued tirade against indigenous traditions since colonial times.

Allegations of plagerism aside, what are the substantive objections to Malhotra's conclusions or methodology?
I need more information before I throw in with one side or the other. The complaints I'm reading in your link sound a bit like the protests I hear from climate change deniers and young-Earth promoters.
:) Afaik, the attempt is to stall the upcoming launch of Malhotra's new book; there can't be justified objections until it is released. But the basis for the attempt to stall the launch of new book by strong-arming the publishers is the allegation that his previous bestseller contains a portion of text that was supposedly plagiarized.
I wouldn't agree with your analogy though. There is a strong nexus of the so-called intelligentsia that works overtime with the objective of undermining any research that tries to explore/explain Indian history, especially when the findings are likely to falsify cherished western Indologists' theories. Though it may sound alarmist, the crux of the matter is that these are attempts to deny a level playing field for academic research.
Academic institutions in India are largely under the influence of this nexus. What is taught in Indian schools as authentic history is more often than nor, highly debated hypotheses, without acknowledging it as such or presenting both sides of the debate. But perhaps, the gravity of the situation is more relevant to Indians or the diaspora with some background to colonial and post-colonial interventions in Indian academia in general, and its history more specifically.

नारायणायेतिसमर्पयामि ।
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Mudslinging and intimidation do suggest lack of confidence in one's position.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Why do you worry, Tattvaprahva? Sage Kabir said:

“Sānch barābar tap nahi, Jhūth barābar pāp l
Jā ke hirday sānch hai, Tā ke hirday āp ll”


(No austerity is higher than the truth, no evil is worse than the untruth;
one who has truth in his heart, You reside in his heart)

Does not our national motto say "Satyameva Jayate nānritam" (Truth alone wins not untruth)? :)
 
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तत्त्वप्रह्व

स्वभावस्थं निरावेशम्
Why do you worry, Tattvaprahva? Sage Kabir said:

“Sānch barābar tap nahi, Jhūth barābar pāp l
Jā ke hirday sānch hai, Tā ke hirday āp ll”


(No austerity is higher than the truth, no evil is worse than the untruth;
one who has truth in his heart, You reside in his heart)

Does not our national motto say "Satyameva Jayate nānritam" (Truth alone wins not untruth)? :)
I'm not worrying Aup ji, and satyameva jayate is true - only it would be wrong to believe that satya will on its own emerge victorious - what it implies is that those on the path of truth shall emerge victorious. Concepts like satya, dharma, ṛta are necessarily from the perspective of conscious activity. I'm merely doing my tiny portion of svadharma following yājñīyamantropaniṣat's caution:
andhaṁ tamaḥ praviśanti yeऽvidfyāmupāsate | tato bhūya iva te tamo ya u vidyāyāṁ ratāḥ || ……………… | To greater darkness (they enter) who are content with their own knowledge (i.e., those that dont know avidya and those that dont endeavor to dispel avidya) | Those who know have the greater responsibility of distinguishing between avidya (wrong knowledge) and vidya or at the least support those active in that direction.

श्रीकृष्णार्पणमस्तु ।
 

ratikala

Istha gosthi
namaskaram Aupmanyav ji , ...

In Wendy Doniger's case, it is not ignorance but 'dwesha' which makes her write such things. It is not that she does not know the truth, she has studied Hindu scriptures for a long time. It is to earn money, keep her position, please the fundy section of Christians.

sadly it is at times like these that I feel some what embarased to be western , allthough you say that Doniger has studied Hindu scripture long enough that she ought by now to know the truth , ...?

sadly you overestimate the clarity of the western mind , I frequently become aware that no amount of academic study removes the arogance of the educated westerner , only devotion or a selfless sence of Dharma purifies the mind sufficiently to render the westerner humble enough to have any genuine understanding of Dharmic religions , ...sadly it is all too common in the west to cling to an interlectual opinion without thought of anything but ones own sence of self importance in mind , ....to some westerners fame and notoriety is even more important than the money , ...truth dosent even enter into it , .....
 

तत्त्वप्रह्व

स्वभावस्थं निरावेशम्
It is not that she does not know the truth, she has studied Hindu scriptures

I frequently become aware that no amount of academic study removes the arogance of the educated westerner
That's true ratikala ji, but the problem is, it is not just arrogance.
Aup ji, though it is true that these western indologists have 'studied' dharmik scriptures, the problem is they use western categories to deconstruct and repackage dharmik thoughts to suit their (often) ulterior motives. For eg., Wendy specializes in Freudian psychoanalysis of scriptures predominantly from sexual deviance, homosexuality, sexual phobias, etc perspective, to the extent that she and her ilk have even written books to portray Ramakrishna paramahansa as someone who had deviant sexual tendencies owing to troubled childhood leading to behaviors that were seen as spiritual given the dharmik presumption that spirituality generally is counter-culture. Further, these are the same people propagating aryan mythologies based solely on linguistic assumptions.[http://www.deccanchronicle.com/1506...article/indo-aryan-migration-theory-rejected].

These people are indeed the root of the problem, yet there is no reason to be concerned about them, for in the final analysis these self-proclaimed masquerade scholars and their various mythological hypotheses will die their natural death, only to be replaced with something else and self-righteously proclaim that we learn and keep "updating" without conceding that there was no use make silly assumptions in the first place. Nor is there a need to be concerned about wannabe hindus, especially westerners, who in their pitiable opinion hope to understand dharma from "peer-reviewed" journals and from masquerade scholars like the Wendys, Pollocks, Witzels, Wilsons, all the way back to Muellers. Having done research in social sciences from a European university myself, i can tell that, except perhaps in pure sciences, there exists not a single editorial board that is unbiased in any other field. There are also a bunch of people who hold the opinion that any improvement in India and its practices can only come from outside; bereft of hope as they already are, there is no need to be concerned about them either.
[

But there is a need to create awareness among the majority of population in India, especially the Hindus, including its young generation in the age group of 8-15, very gullible intellectually, lacking sufficient discernment to see thru' what is written in the media, or what is broadcasted on TV and radio or worse in their school text books. Most in the current generation have lost the capacity to think independently, and all that passes as scholarship in the mainstream is the rechauffe of those propagated by the scholars in the western ivory towers repackaged and authenticated by our own Romila Thapars. The problem is that (most of) these youngsters have lost their sense of identity and are more confused about life and values. A very obvious case in point is the family system. Go to most old age homes in cities you'll find these people have wealthy children settled abroad! Many don't want to live with their parents after marriage because it hampers their lifestyle! The fundamental problem is that all the garbage that is being fed into these gullible minds is resulting in a value system that will only worsen the identity crisis problem. Buddhi-jeevis of India will protest with loudspeakers on issues of rape and misogyny without actually taking the trouble of finding the root cause of such social ills - why is it so difficult to understand that all these problems arise because the social safety net of 'family', which has been a great and effective moderating factor, is being torn to shreds. Of those who are supposed to voice their opinion against this, some are busy addressing the symptoms, some are actually supporting its causes (at times inadvertently), some have no clue whats going on, and then there are some who say everything is one, it doesn't matter it will all be okay without us having to do anything. The irony is that the so-called Indian intellectuals themselves are the biggest threats to dharmik traditions today - they provide expert opinion on context and content which is culturally and linguistically alien to them! Perhaps its only in Indic studies (amongst living traditions) where opinions based on translations can be presented as scholarship, no matter how twisted those translations are.

श्रीकृष्णार्पणमस्तु ।
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
.. even written books to portray Ramakrishna paramahansa as someone who had deviant sexual tendencies owing to troubled childhood leading to behaviors that were seen as spiritual given the dharmik presumption that spirituality generally is counter-culture. Further, these are the same people propagating aryan mythologies based solely on linguistic assumptions.[http://www.deccanchronicle.com/1506...article/indo-aryan-migration-theory-rejected].

These people are indeed the root of the problem, yet there is no reason to be concerned about them, for in the final analysis these self-proclaimed masquerade scholars and their various mythological hypotheses will die their natural death, only to be replaced with something else
I do not know much about Sri Ramakrishna Paramhansa. People rever him and that is OK with me. I would not adopt Christianity for fifteen days and Islam for another fifteen days like him. It is not pragmatic. I too hate Wendy and her ilk outside India and Romila Thapar and her ilk in India for denigrating and falsifying Hinduism and Hindu history, but I would not like it to be replaced by falsehood of chauvinistic Hindus. I wish that this does not happen with promptings from BJP or RSS (I am a member of BJP). We should stick to scientific findings and truth, because as we know 'truth alone wins not untruth' (Satyena nasti paramam Padam). If we follow untruth then some day we will have to backtrack and be proved liars. That will be a very short-sighted strategy. Hinduism does not need it. Hinduism can stand on its own.

श्रीकृष्णार्पणमस्तु ।
 
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ratikala

Istha gosthi
That's true ratikala ji, but the problem is, it is not just arrogance.

Agreed it is something prehaps more insidious than arogance alone , ....but I say arogance because unfortunatly it is some what typical of the western mentality to approach religion academicaly , ...in this instance the arrogance lay in the beleif that the western mind can acedemicaly study a religion or philosophy without having fully surrendered to a Guru and learnt the system the way it is supposed to be taught , ....this attitude of no surrender equates to no real possibility of learning , ....therefore also no hope of practical aplication , ....

My appologies if this veiw causes offence to any one , ....but if we are to speak of defending ''Dharmic Traditions'', ...I dont think Dharma can be understood by either western or eastern minds with out Humility , ....there is a Humility in Christianity but the majority of the west whilst still conscidering them selves Christian are becoming increasingly less devout or religious and more secular , unfortunatly due to their material and scientific advancement they have had centuries of increased well being , and in such a false state of comfort they have lost sight of God thinking them selves to be the controllers , ....the only sence of service known to the majority is service to that which brings material reward in this life , ......


Aup ji, though it is true that these western indologists have 'studied' dharmik scriptures, the problem is they use western categories to deconstruct and repackage dharmik thoughts to suit their (often) ulterior motives.

In some respects I feel great pitty for such academics , .....as they miss the true worth of the subjects they proport to expound upon therefore miss the oppertunity to greatly benifit mankind , ....they are the envious that Krsna speaks of in the Gita , ......

idam te natapaskaya
nabhaktaya kadacana
na casusrusave vacyam
na ca mam yo bhyasuyati

This confidential knowledge may never be explained to those who are not austere, or devoted, or engaged in devotional service, nor to one who is envious of Me. .......ch .18 v ..67​

not content to praise or offer devotion to any form of supreme being , and thinking only of their own position they are wracked with envy , thus they seek to destroy anything more glorious than them selves , they canot understand the position of the embodied soul in relation to the eternal unborn source of all being , .....thus they must bring all things down to their own level , .....

For eg., Wendy specializes in Freudian psychoanalysis of scriptures predominantly from sexual deviance, homosexuality, sexual phobias, etc perspective, to the extent that she and her ilk have even written books to portray Ramakrishna paramahansa as someone who had deviant sexual tendencies owing to troubled childhood leading to behaviors that were seen as spiritual given the dharmik presumption that spirituality generally is counter-culture. Further, these are the same people propagating aryan mythologies based solely on linguistic assumptions.


sadly all this speaks of is their fear of looking beyond the most base animalistic self , .....


These people are indeed the root of the problem, yet there is no reason to be concerned about them, for in the final analysis these self-proclaimed masquerade scholars and their various mythological hypotheses will die their natural death, only to be replaced with something else and self-righteously proclaim that we learn and keep "updating" without conceding that there was no use make silly assumptions in the first place. Nor is there a need to be concerned about wannabe hindus, especially westerners, who in their pitiable opinion hope to understand dharma from "peer-reviewed" journals and from masquerade scholars like the Wendys, Pollocks, Witzels, Wilsons, all the way back to Muellers. Having done research in social sciences from a European university myself, i can tell that, except perhaps in pure sciences, there exists not a single editorial board that is unbiased in any other field. There are also a bunch of people who hold the opinion that any improvement in India and its practices can only come from outside; bereft of hope as they already are, there is no need to be concerned about them either.

this is true , in the long run such foolish behavior will lead inturn to a great questioning , ...it is just frustrating , ...in my instance my academic education by western standards is pitifully poor , ...yet I count it a blessing as I have no interest what so ever in western academia , ....yet by great fortune I was atracted to Dharmic faiths , ...what has allways astounded me is that the western mind once its interest is aroused does not sit him self at the feet of a Guru and just listen , .....sadly he does not seek darshan of the Guru or the Deity as he does not know that he is lacking or that he must in any way clear obsticals to knowing , he is the arcitypal child who thinking he knows it all listens to no one , ...and is aware only of his own self , ....and whilst resting in this complacancy the west will be eclipsed , ....it prehaps once had the propencity for greatness but it abused its position to such a degree that its actions can only bring about its demise , ....but the rest of this earth planet should learn from the mistakes of the west and not in any way try to emulate them , ....so many civilisations have fallen in this way , ....

But there is a need to create awareness among the majority of population in India, especially the Hindus, including its young generation in the age group of 8-15, very gullible intellectually, lacking sufficient discernment to see thru' what is written in the media, or what is broadcasted on TV and radio or worse in their school text books. Most in the current generation have lost the capacity to think independently, and all that passes as scholarship in the mainstream is the rechauffe of those propagated by the scholars in the western ivory towers repackaged and authenticated by our own Romila Thapars. The problem is that (most of) these youngsters have lost their sense of identity and are more confused about life and values.

all I can pray for is that the incapasity for independant thinking will be shortlived , ...because the west for this moment holds the wealth and the power the young Hindu prehaps still feels inferior and all while the west in its attempt to retain its control through materialism it will try to cast doubt into the minds of the young born into dharmic traditions by infering that these traditions are outmoded and supersticious , but even in this respect Science will discover as it has already done that much which 100 years ago was thought to be pure supersticion and mythology has a very credibal basis , so to in the coming years there will have to be a shift in thought and I can only pray that the Bharatia born Hindu youth will again realise their blessed position and again feel pride in their birth and in their tradition .

A very obvious case in point is the family system. Go to most old age homes in cities you'll find these people have wealthy children settled abroad! Many don't want to live with their parents after marriage because it hampers their lifestyle! The fundamental problem is that all the garbage that is being fed into these gullible minds is resulting in a value system that will only worsen the identity crisis problem. Buddhi-jeevis of India will protest with loudspeakers on issues of rape and misogyny without actually taking the trouble of finding the root cause of such social ills - why is it so difficult to understand that all these problems arise because the social safety net of 'family', which has been a great and effective moderating factor, is being torn to shreds. Of those who are supposed to voice their opinion against this, some are busy addressing the symptoms, some are actually supporting its causes (at times inadvertently), some have no clue whats going on, and then there are some who say everything is one, it doesn't matter it will all be okay without us having to do anything. The irony is that the so-called Indian intellectuals themselves are the biggest threats to dharmik traditions today - they provide expert opinion on context and content which is culturally and linguistically alien to them! Perhaps its only in Indic studies (amongst living traditions) where opinions based on translations can be presented as scholarship, no matter how twisted those translations are.

again I can only hope that this generation of ''Iindian Interlectuals'' will be replaced by a new class of thinkers that do not need to emulate the facade of western interlectualism , ....I am afraid that I think that the only real answer comes not from excessive study but from learning to once again become Human to develop love for the lord in the heart of all beings , ...to develop compassion and a genuinly more sharing nature , ....one with Bhakti in the heart does not strive for these inperminent material gains he is not fooled by their false promice , ....his joy comes not from lording it above others but from being of true service , ....
 

ratikala

Istha gosthi
namaskaram तत्त्वप्रह्व ji

thinking further on some points you raised , ....

But there is a need to create awareness among the majority of population in India, especially the Hindus, including its young generation in the age group of 8-15, very gullible intellectually, lacking sufficient discernment to see thru' what is written in the media, or what is broadcasted on TV and radio or worse in their school text books. Most in the current generation have lost the capacity to think independently, and all that passes as scholarship in the mainstream is the rechauffe of those propagated by the scholars in the western ivory towers repackaged and authenticated by our own Romila Thapars. The problem is that (most of) these youngsters have lost their sense of identity and are more confused about life and values. A very obvious case in point is the family system. Go to most old age homes in cities you'll find these people have wealthy children settled abroad! Many don't want to live with their parents after marriage because it hampers their lifestyle! The fundamental problem is that all the garbage that is being fed into these gullible minds is resulting in a value system that will only worsen the identity crisis problem. Buddhi-jeevis of India will protest with loudspeakers on issues of rape and misogyny without actually taking the trouble of finding the root cause of such social ills - why is it so difficult to understand that all these problems arise because the social safety net of 'family', which has been a great and effective moderating factor, is being torn to shreds. Of those who are supposed to voice their opinion against this, some are busy addressing the symptoms, some are actually supporting its causes (at times inadvertently), some have no clue whats going on, and then there are some who say everything is one, it doesn't matter it will all be okay without us having to do anything. The irony is that the so-called Indian intellectuals themselves are the biggest threats to dharmik traditions today - they provide expert opinion on context and content which is culturally and linguistically alien to them! Perhaps its only in Indic studies (amongst living traditions) where opinions based on translations can be presented as scholarship, no matter how twisted those translations are.

my thoughts this morning came back to Krsnas words in the Gita , ....

BG 3.9: Work done as a sacrifice for Visnu has to be performed, otherwise work causes bondage in this material world. Therefore, O son of Kunti perform your prescribed duties for His satisfaction, and in that way you will always remain free from bondage.

BG 3.10: In the beginning of creation, the Lord of all creatures sent forth generations of men and demigods, along with sacrifices for Visnu , and blessed them by saying , "Be thou happy by this yajna [sacrifice] because its performance will bestow upon you everything desirable for living happily and achieving liberation."

BG 3.11: The demigods, being pleased by sacrifices, will also please you, and thus, by cooperation between men and demigods, prosperity will reign for all.

BG 3.12: In charge of the various necessities of life, the demigods, being satisfied by the performance of yajna [sacrifice], will supply all necessities to you. But he who enjoys such gifts without offering them to the demigods in return is certainly a thief.


thus the scholars of whom you speak , who write for the promotion of their own name and fame who foolishly work to satisfy their own ego's rather than as an offering to Visnu and a service to society are acting in the mode of passion , they behave as the thief ..the average man in the street should not look up to such unworty persons as leaders but should see them for what they are , ....

they should know that true happiness comes from performance of ones duties , ....

BG 3.15: Regulated activities are prescribed in the Vedas, and the Vedas are directly manifested from the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Consequently the all-pervading Transcendence is eternally situated in acts of sacrifice .


BG 3.20: Kings such as Janaka attained perfection solely by performance of prescribed duties . Therefore , just for the sake of educating the people in general , you should perform your work .
BG 3.21
: Whatever action a great man performs, common men follow . And whatever standards he sets by exemplary acts , all the world pursues .


thus for the young Bharatia he should know that the greatest glory is his for free ,as belongs to all men be they rich or poor educated or un educated , ....and that he simply by carrying out his prescribed duty he becomes the greatest of all men as he sets the true example , ....and in this case let the world follow him , ....for he is the true holder of Chintamani , in the form of the vedic knowledge , .....
 

ratikala

Istha gosthi
namaskaram Achintya Ash ji


from what I read this is an excelent article , ....

but without even reading Malhotra's points , ..Doniger's words speak for them selves , ....

The Bhagavad Gita is not as nice a book as some Americans think…Throughout the Mahabharata ... Krishna goads human beings into all sorts of murderous and self-destructive behaviors such as war.... The Gita is a dishonest book …”

-- Wendy Doniger, Professor of History of Religions, University of Chicago.
Quoted in Philadelphia Inquirer, 19 November, 2000

had the Great America never waged war on any other country she may be in a position to say this , ... but as this is not the case the dishonesty is hers !!!
 

तत्त्वप्रह्व

स्वभावस्थं निरावेशम्
We should stick to scientific findings and truth, because as we know 'truth alone wins not untruth' (Satyena nasti paramam Padam). If we follow untruth then some day we will have to backtrack and be proved liars. That will be a very short-sighted strategy. Hinduism does not need it. Hinduism can stand on its own.
This is exactly why there is a need to 1- oppose western vested interests trying to subvert and denigrate the wisdom inherent in the entire corpus of scriptures including vedas, itihāsas, and purāṇas; 2- re-establish self-esteem in the bhāratiyas that indigenous sciences are as good as or even better than western ones, after all the latter have only derived and developed their's from the former - without giving sufficient credit. Of course, there is no scope for untruth in the vedas, ergo no need to have any fear as long as one treads the path without bias or personal ambitions.

My appologies if this veiw causes offence to any one
Ratikala ji, the indian intellectual tradition, unlike the western where even ignorant audacity is masked with dubious humility and presented as scholarship, encourages unapologetic questioning and inquiry as long as it is done on the basis of honesty, integrity, and genuine thirst for knowledge. As you'd agree, our faith systems and inner wisdom aren't so fragile that even a single question can cause so much anguish; our tradition thrives on active questioning and constant challenging with sole purpose of uncovering and gaining personal anubhava of satya. Though i understand the context in which you speak, i was quite perplexed that many even on the hinduism sub-forum have very low threshold when it comes to opposing philosophies!
the average man in the street should not look up to such unworty persons as leaders but should see them for what they are , ....
.for he is the true holder of Chintamani , in the form of the vedic knowledge , .....
Agree with you fully. Strangely enough, the Śṛngeri mutt itself has been led into believing that these people hold good intentions, what to speak of average people.

नारायणायेतिसमर्पयामि ।
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
This is exactly why there is a need to 1- oppose western vested interests trying to subvert and denigrate the wisdom inherent in the entire corpus of scriptures including vedas, itihāsas, and purāṇas; 2- re-establish self-esteem in the bhāratiyas that indigenous sciences are as good as or even better than western ones, after all the latter have only derived and developed their's from the former - without giving sufficient credit. Of course, there is no scope for untruth in the vedas, ergo no need to have any fear as long as one treads the path without bias or personal ambitions.
Tattva, did you ever find a dearth of self-esteem in me in all these thousands of posts? I will also oppose western interests where they try to subvert and denigrate Hinduism. I know the value of my scriptures, though I accept none as divine. Yes, we perhaps had much better science at one time as compared to most parts of Europe (We should not belittle the achievements of Greeks, Sumerians, Egyptians or Chinese). But I accept the theory that seems to me the best. I am a pupil of Lord Rama who said follow truth fearlessly, and Lord Buddha who gave us the Kalama Sutta. If Aryans are accepted as immigrants, that IN NO WAY DIMINISHES HINDUISM BUT ONLY GLORIFIES IT. We won them over in peace and with wisdom. Had it happened anywhere else, there would have been rivers of blood.
 

तत्त्वप्रह्व

स्वभावस्थं निरावेशम्
Tattva, did you ever find a dearth of self-esteem in me in all these thousands of posts?
Aup ji, why would you compare yourself with young kids of this generation. If they held studied opinion, which i believe you do, i wouldn't have started this thread at all. Am sure you'd agree that there is a general disdain or apathy towards Indian philosophy and wisdom amongst the youth. Though not entirely their mistake, their contentment with ignorance and undeserved dependence on western thinking is appalling.

If Aryans are accepted as immigrants, that IN NO WAY DIMINISHES HINDUISM BUT ONLY GLORIFIES IT.
Well, like we've already discussed several times, i don't have a problem with this hypothesis. I believe, irrespective of whether so-called aryans were immigrants or were indigenous populace, the wisdom enshrined in the Vedas will continue to be valid. But you can't disagree that the primary motive of this hypothesis has always been socio-cultural engineering for political reasons. But in Indian textbooks it is still taught as if it is an established theory without challenging and valid alternatives. Why parrot western indologist views, that is far from even generally accepted academic standards? Hinduism is glorious even without accepting the hypothesis.

Why didn't so many saṁskṛtam scholars before the arrival of brits ever propound such a theory, given that most of them had native understanding of saṁskṛtaṁ? Not that there were no relationship with the external world. Nor would there have been a reason to be ashamed of their original homeland, which they would've clearly mentioned with name of the place and its geographical characteristics. Tilak's hypothesis too has some fundamental flaws owing to his acceptance of Mueller's translation. Go to any scholar with knowledge of vaidika saṁskṛtaṁ, it will be immediately obvious. Not that it is entirely bogus, as is with Mueller's work, but certain understanding requires learning from a tradition because of the nature of its practice.

नारायणायेतिसमर्पयामि ।
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Am sure you'd agree that there is a general disdain or apathy towards Indian philosophy and wisdom among the youth.


But you can't disagree that the primary motive of this hypothesis has always been socio-cultural engineering for political reasons.

Nor would there have been a reason to be ashamed of their original homeland, which they would've clearly mentioned with name of the place and its geographical characteristics.
Young are young. As they get older, they become interested. I picked up the scriptures for the second time when I was 40 or 45. Though I had read Gita Press, Gorakhpur's Sri MadBhagawatham, I think before the age of 10. It had beautiful (monochrome) images (there were a few colored ones on glassy paper too) apart from the stories. Fascinating. If I close my eyes, I can still see those images. :)

I do not think I can agree with your second statement. Indology has not been a conspiracy theory. Many sincere people have studied our books and translated/commented them very faithfully. Other historians, linguists, geneticists and archaeologists have worked on Aryan history. It is still an on-going work. I will not like to rubbish all those people, not even Max Muller. History and archaeology are presently in favor of coming of Aryans from Pontic steppes and Central Asia to Iran and India. They also favor another branch moving west to Baltic States and Greece. Lokmanya Tilak's theory discusses where from (Ariyanem Vaejo or the Urheimat) they might have come to the Pontic steppes.

The places where the Aryans came from to India is clearly mentioned in our books and include such places as Uttara Kuru, Uttara Madra, Uttara Kamboja, etc. 'Uttara' in North (or the previous, depending upon the context). How come they all came from North? The Avesta mentions the fifteen places where Aryans lived after moving from Ariyanem Vaejo. I have never said that Tilak's theory is without its flaws. Actually, my view is that the story of flood is really a flood by snow (i.e., the coming of ice-age, 20,000 years ago which caused Aryans to migrate) which remained in the folk memory and is mentioned only in Avesta. The reality could be very different from what the scholars think now (see below).

Avesta.png
snow.png
 
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ratikala

Istha gosthi
namaskaram तत्त्वप्रह्व ji

Ratikala ji, the indian intellectual tradition, unlike the western where even ignorant audacity is masked with dubious humility and presented as scholarship, encourages unapologetic questioning and inquiry as long as it is done on the basis of honesty, integrity, and genuine thirst for knowledge. As you'd agree, our faith systems and inner wisdom aren't so fragile that even a single question can cause so much anguish; our tradition thrives on active questioning and constant challenging with sole purpose of uncovering and gaining personal anubhava of satya. Though i understand the context in which you speak, i was quite perplexed that many even on the hinduism sub-forum have very low threshold when it comes to opposing philosophies!

sadly so many times especialy in the west there is little true thirst for knowledge , as to be hungry for knowledge means addmiting ones poverty of wisdom ....there exists all to often a grasping at , and asserting of , that illusuory self combined with a lack of true realisation that the self is imperminant and incomplete , ....you speak of ''anubhava of satya'', ...what pains me most at this moment is the apparent lack of interest in accheiving that 'Direct Perception' , ....and the over reliance upon the quoting of scripture as a fait accompli rather than being that wich leads the aspirant to that direct perception , ...

prehaps I am wrong but is this not part of the problem with the missuse of sanskrit , ...in that it is being brought down to a limited level of understanding rather than being allowed as it should to lift us above such limitations , ....only true sraddha has that fearless ness that allows us to go beyond our small zones of comfort , ....

to me sraddha opens up a perviously un known realm , Sanskrit being the language relating to that realm and to perception of it , ....therefore without sraddha it mistakenly becomes merely a language and discussion of it becomes dry speculation , ...?

Agree with you fully. Strangely enough, the Śṛngeri mutt itself has been led into believing that these people hold good intentions, what to speak of average people.

नारायणायेतिसमर्पयामि ।
sadly I canot veiw any videos at the moment for the last few days we have been expeiencing real difficulties connecting so I have not been able to veiw any of the above , ....

prehaps I will have better luck tomorrow , .....
 
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