Defending Dharmik Traditions

[Aupmanyav]

Ratiben, whatever be the history of Aryans, it does not affect what our scriptures contain (for me the wisdom of two people). Why just two, many people (of India) that combined to make Hinduism what it is today. That is a totally different plane.

 

[ratikala]

Namaskaram aupmanyav ji

Ratiben, whatever be the history of Aryans, it does not affect what our scriptures contain (for me the wisdom of two people). Why just two, many people (of India) that combined to make Hinduism what it is today. That is a totally different plane.

personaly I am probably hugely influenced by listening to our Guru who fondly refers to Bharat Varsha as the home of Vedic Knowledge , never have I heard him mention Aryan invasion or migration theories , ..he uses Aryan only in refering to a noble people , ...those who lived by the principles of Sanatana Dharma , ....to me these noble Aryans are decendants of the first ruller of this earth planet Ikshvaku , ....

The Personality of Godhead , Lord Sri Krsna said ; I instructed this imperishable science of yoga to the sun-god, Vivasvan , and Vivasvan instructed it to Manu the father of mankind , and Manu in turn instructed it to Ikshvaku .
Bhagavad Gita ch ..4 v ..1

I think prehaps we should not be thinking in terms of two peoples or many peoples , ...originaly we were one people , ....we are all decendants of Manu , ....just some of us got lost ! ....only the Aryans have retained this knowledge , through Shastra , ...and also there is one thing to bear in mind , ..Bharat Varsha was originaly much larger so it may be true that Aryan people roamed about over this vast expance leaving traces of their knowledge where ever they had been , and from these traces many different faiths evolved , .....but what is now most important is that India survives as the home of this Sanatana Dharma , never was there a place so sacred , as so many times so many avataras have graced her soil , ...so many times the supreme Lord has appeared there , ....so many holy Dham's , ...once the lord has placed his feet upon that soil then that Dham becomes eternal , ......

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. I am probably hugely influenced by listening to our Guru who fondly refers to Bharat Varsha as the home of Vedic Knowledge, never have I heard him mention Aryan invasion or migration theories, ..

Ratiben, your guruji is perfectly correct. One of the conditions of the assimilation was that Vedas will be accepted as revealed literature (although we may not be following all that is mentioned in the Vedas, hardly anyone does that, for example the 'grahyagni' which every householder was obliged to do five times a day for all his life). And then your guruji is on a completely different plane. He does not need history.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Aupmanyav ji

Ratiben, your guruji is perfectly correct.

jai jai

And then your guruji is on a completely different plane. He does not need history.

jai jai , ....although he does discuss history , his histories are contained in Shastra , in the Ramayana , Bhagavatam and Mahabarata ....but material history is of little consequence he discusses it only when relevant , it is different according to whom you speak , ....he is prehaps more interested in what is happening now , ....he too understands the importance of ''Defending Dharmic Traditions ''

you are so right to say that we have neglected so many observances such as Grhyagni , ...we have also neglected to upkeep the sacred flame in the heart which conects is to the Supreme , ...we think that this material life has provided for our every need we now have Matches , ...? ...so we think we can summons the continuity of life out of a box , ...?....No no , we are so very stupid , ...we think that we can extinguish Agni whilst we go to work then re kindle him when we return home , ....it is this kind of thinking that allows us to call the Ramayana and Mahabarata stories instead of regarding them as 'itihas' , ..as histories , ...and thinking of the 'Puranans' as mythology when they should be known as the ancient histories , ....

if we are to protect our Dharmic Traditions then we must uphold these traditions in our own hearts , ....never never should we regard the Histories as Mythology and never never should we forget the Divine Origin of Revelaed Scripture , ...

One of the conditions of the assimilation was that Vedas will be accepted as revealed literature (although we may not be following all that is mentioned in the Vedas, hardly anyone does that, for example the 'grahyagni' which every householder was obliged to do five times a day for all his life).

where have we gone wrong ???

 

[Aupmanyav]

where have we gone wrong ???

No, Ratiben, we have not gone terribly wrong. These changes are due to time (kala-dharma). These always keep happening. The fire of devotion and of spiritual inquiry is still strong in us, and I am sure, that will sustain Hindu dharma and society. We are under the protection of the Lord. Sri Krishna Sharanam Mama.

Pakistan's National Poet Allama Iqbal - Sare Jahan Se Achha Hindostan Hamara - Our India is the best in the world

 

[Kirran]

It is a shame that less people have that spiritual drive, that calling to the Supreme than it seems was the case in the past. Fortunately, there are many who are keeping the flame alight! Dharma continues on!

 

[Kalibhakta]

namaskaram Achintya Ash ji



from what I read this is an excelent article , ....

but without even reading Malhotra's points , ..Doniger's words speak for them selves , ....

The Bhagavad Gita is not as nice a book as some Americans think…Throughout the Mahabharata ... Krishna goads human beings into all sorts of murderous and self-destructive behaviors such as war.... The Gita is a dishonest book …”

-- Wendy Doniger, Professor of History of Religions, University of Chicago.
Quoted in Philadelphia Inquirer, 19 November, 2000

had the Great America never waged war on any other country she may be in a position to say this , ... but as this is not the case the dishonesty is hers !!!

We feast on war like we feast on food, Wendy Doniger is a Freudian hack

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Kirran ji

It is a shame that less people have that spiritual drive, that calling to the Supreme than it seems was the case in the past. Fortunately, there are many who are keeping the flame alight! Dharma continues on!

Jai Jai , ....that should be our business here , .....keeping the flame alight , .....and keeping it pure , ..although Dharma it self should burn off any impurities , ....

 

[ratikala]

namakaram Kalibhakta ji

We feast on war like we feast on food, Wendy Doniger is a Freudian hack

unfortunatly yes , ...prehaps even 'Gorge upon' is more appropriate , ....
.....Saddly we all to readily we feast on sensationalism , wendy Doniger plays upon that , it is a sad but natural sign of spiritual immaturity , .....

 

[Kalibhakta]

namakaram Kalibhakta ji



unfortunatly yes , ...prehaps even 'Gorge upon' is more appropriate , ....
.....Saddly we all to readily we feast on sensationalism , wendy Doniger plays upon that , it is a sad but natural sign of spiritual immaturity , .....

There was the wonderful human being wrote Kali's Child who said Sri Ramakrishna was a gay pedophile because he had no idea how Bengali worked and chose the most perverse meaning of words even if that was the least common use of the word. It's the adult version of giggling at somebody saying "Dirty" even in the context of gardening. I honestly feel like people pick on Hinduism because they think they can away with it.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Aupmanyav ji

No, Ratiben, we have not gone terribly wrong. These changes are due to time (kala-dharma). These always keep happening. The fire of devotion and of spiritual inquiry is still strong in us, and I am sure, that will sustain Hindu dharma and society. We are under the protection of the Lord. Sri Krishna Sharanam Mama.

Jai Jai , .....

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram ji

I honestly feel like people pick on Hinduism because they think they can away with it.

they think , ...(in their limited human capacity) ...but little do they konw !

I think all we can do is pray for their awakening before they do any more dammage , ....

 

[तत्त्वप्रह्व]

I do not think I can agree with your second statement. Indology has not been a conspiracy theory. Many sincere people have studied our books and translated/commented them very faithfully. Other historians, linguists, geneticists and archaeologists have worked on Aryan history. It is still an on-going work. I will not like to rubbish all those people, not even Max Muller. History and archaeology are presently in favor of coming of Aryans from Pontic steppes and Central Asia to Iran and India. They also favor another branch moving west to Baltic States and Greece. Lokmanya Tilak's theory discusses where from (Ariyanem Vaejo or the Urheimat) they might have come to the Pontic steppes.

Of course Aup ji, there is no conspiracy, it is outright euro-centric evangelism. The Indians already have their version of itihāsa, whoever asked these 'sincere' people to write their own, and if at all, why re-invent the wheel? And even if so, why quote and (mis)interpret selectively? And as if that wasn't sufficient, present it as scholarship which wouldn't meet their own standards for scholarship.

The places where the Aryans came from to India is clearly mentioned in our books and include such places as Uttara Kuru, Uttara Madra, Uttara Kamboja, etc. 'Uttara' in North (or the previous, depending upon the context). How come they all came from North?

Why presuppose they should've come from 'somewhere' at all? There is no reason to consider Rgveda as a historical account. If it were so, there would be no need to have a separate set of scriptures called itihāsas and purāṇas. Moreover, when you claim that only Rgveda is authentic because it is the oldest, there is no justifiable reason to believe that the mantras were used as found in the same order (even after accommodating for indologist's chronology of maṇḍalas), it was merely compiled as such Vyāsa; claiming that Vyāsa may not be relevant, is also invalid because there is no other evidence that the vedas were classified as they are by any other cause. If you claim it is merely a tradition, then not only are you overlooking existing evidence as a possibility, but are also susceptible to the reasonable doubt of reading your version into the texts because it is impossible to understand any text without context, let alone poetic ones. [By 'you' i mean the indolgists]

prehaps I am wrong but is this not part of the problem with the missuse of sanskrit , ...in that it is being brought down to a limited level of understanding rather than being allowed as it should to lift us above such limitations , ....only true sraddha has that fearless ness that allows us to go beyond our small zones of comfort , ....

to me sraddha opens up a perviously un known realm , Sanskrit being the language relating to that realm and to perception of it , ....therefore without sraddha it mistakenly becomes merely a language and discussion of it becomes dry speculation , ...?

That is exactly what the indologists attempt to attack ratikala ji. Their overall idea is to propagate the myth that 'see all the betterment you've achieved is thru' people who came from outside'. And today we have a generation that venerates anything as long as it is endorsed in the west, Take yoga/ayurveda/reiki(rechauffe of pranik healing)/philosophy/astronomy.....

नारायणायेतिसमर्पयामि ।

 

[Aupmanyav]

The Indians already have their version of itihāsa, whoever asked these 'sincere' people to write their own, and if at all, why re-invent the wheel?

Don't agree with you. Do you believe in the 'vimanas', 'brahmastras', and 'pashupat astras'? Do you believe that we had the technology to change iron in to gold? We have mythology. And what many Indians believe is biased and chauvinistic. Historical research is not that. And I believe truth is the best policy. Do you also believe that there was no Muslim or British rule for more than 1000 years in India?

.. it was merely compiled as such Vyāsa; claiming that Vyāsa may not be relevant, is also invalid because there is no other evidence that the vedas were classified as they are by any other cause.

There is no proof of the existence of a Sage known as Vedavyasa or that Srimad BhagwadGita is a conversation between Krishna, a king of Dwarika and Arjuna, one of the five brothers who supposedly founded Indraprastha. Vyasa is just one who recites old stories. Or that there was a Kurukshetra war between 11 Akshohini army of the Kauravas and 5 Akshohini army of the Pandavas. These are traditional beliefs, myths. That does not impinge on the value of Vedas and the wisdom that might be contained in Srimad BhagawadGita. Did they ever find a sword or a mace or an arrow used in that war or the chariot wheel that was lifted by Lord Krishna against grandpa Bheeshma? So keep the two things separate, history and religion. At least, I believe it that way, and it does not diminish my Hinduism in any way.

Their overall idea is to propagate the myth that 'see all the betterment you've achieved is thru' people who came from outside'. And today we have a generation that venerates anything as long as it is endorsed in the west, Take yoga/ayurveda/reiki (rechauffe of pranik healing)/philosophy/astronomy ..

It is not true to say that 'all we have achieved is through the people who came from outside'. Actually, the coming of Aryans was just a ripple in the ocean of India. It did not change us in any material way. We went on/are still following our old ways. We are still worshiping our old Gods, Shiva, Durga, Rama, Krishna, etc. who are not mentioned in the RigVeda and not Indra, Agni, Soma, Ashwins, etc. (except on special occasions as a concession to Aryans). Yoga was not at all known in RigVeda (don't talk about Reiki, it is just a version of Yoga and a way to earn money and fame by the old man whose name I forget. It was/is a business, just as many have turned yoga too in to business). Yes, North India accepted local variants of Sanskrit. That probably is the biggest change due to Aryans. Aryans were not much in to philosophy, what philosophy we have is basically indigenous. As for astronomy, we had our days but the world have left us much behind. Of course, we are catching up. However, I am not totally satisfied with Ayurveda, and feel that it needs more research and standardization.

 

[तत्त्वप्रह्व]

Don't agree with you. Do you believe in the 'vimanas', 'brahmastras', and 'pashupat astras'?

Do you believe that vimanas are like those shown in Ramanand Sagars Ramayana and the astras like those shown in BR Chopra's Mahabharata?

Do you believe that we had the technology to change iron in to gold?

Well, there is no reason why it cannot be possible ever. Until someone came with a heliocentric theory most of these people believed in geocentric one. Had these indologists arrived in India then, perhaps they would have considered our heliocentric model equally mythological. As of now, one can say we don't know if it is possible, but not with certainty that it is impossible without being equally biased and chauvinistic.

Do you also believe that there was no Muslim or British rule for more than 1000 years in India?

Really?

There is no proof of the existence of a Sage known as Vedavyasa

What is the proof that anyone's great great grandfather existed? Nobody wrote about him, nobody has his picture, not even the neighbors remember his name, so by your standard claiming ancestry is equally bogus, because accepting ancestry is possible either thru documents or personal testimony, both exist for Vyasa, so if you reject that, you might as well reject everybody else's. Genetics is possibly another option available now, but because you cannot find any sample one cannot rule out the possibility of existence. So what exactly is the basis for denying the existence?

Or that there was a Kurukshetra war between 11 Akshohini army of the Kauravas and 5 Akshohini army of the Pandavas.

Well it didn't happen in Palmyra or in the middle of the desert. Why do you have to discount the fact that it could be buried under several centuries of subsequent constructions. Or that the people of the time were wiser (though it contradicts your sincere indologists' assumptions) and cleaned the place, we have evidence that they did clean the place by removing and performing the last rites of every dead soldier? Maybe they cleared the entire place, at any rate will still be a better possibility than denying it completely. There have been no archaelogical findings to the contrary, on the other hand there are that support it, for instance excavations at dvarka.

Did they ever find a sword or a mace or an arrow used in that war or the chariot wheel that was lifted by Lord Krishna against grandpa Bheeshma?

Well, perhaps they should've built a museum with such antiques after the war.

So keep the two things separate, history and religion.

Isn't this an advice you should give to sincere indologists trying to appropriate a religious scripture such as Rg Veda and writing, or rather manufacturing, history based on that? Don't tell me because they are westerners and therefore not biased and chauvinistic are allowed do exactly what we are not supposed to do!

श्रीकृष्णार्पणमस्तु ।

 

[Aupmanyav]

What is the proof that anyone's great great grandfather existed? Nobody wrote about him, nobody has his picture, not even the neighbors remember his name, so by your standard claiming ancestry is equally bogus, because accepting ancestry is possible either thru documents or personal testimony, both exist for Vyasa, so if you reject that, you might as well reject everybody else's. Genetics is possibly another option available now, ..

My existence proves the existence of my great great grandfather, whoever it was. Tradition says that my forebear was Upamanyu, I do not know about the truth of this statement. There are hundreds of thousands of Vyasas in India, it is a brahmin surname. I do not know if the Vyasas of old were brahmins or not. They could have been indigenous story-tellers who were incorporated in brahmin fold at a later stage. Sage VedaVyasa as even the tradition says was son of an indigenous woman. Genetically, the story could even be more murkier as no man can say that one whom he considers as his son is really his son without DNA profiling.

.. we have evidence that they did clean the place by removing and performing the last rites of every dead soldier? Maybe they cleared the entire place, at any rate will still be a better possibility than denying it completely. There have been no archaelogical findings to the contrary, on the other hand there are that support it, for instance excavations at dvarka.

They must have, since, 16 akshohini soldiers, horses, elephants, and the implements, chariots, swords, spears, bows and arrows were removed, but they would have dumped that somewhere. Have we found any such place? Is that the reason why Haryana is devoid of trees that all wood was used for cremation of these people? I too do not deny it completely. 11,000 soldiers on one side and 5,000 on the other is a more likely possibility. It is like the Jews saying that Moses had a following of three million people in Sinai desert. Yes, there have been finds in Dwarika, would you kindly tell me what they have found. Just a few submerged constructions off the shore.

Don't tell me because they are westerners and therefore not biased and chauvinistic are allowed do exactly what we are not supposed to do!

Have I at any time shown any servility towards westerners? Like Lord Buddha said, I decide things on my own.

 

[kalyan]

My existence proves the existence of my great great grandfather, whoever it was.

What if your grand father has not fathered any children, then how do u prove his existence? Honestly Veda Vyasa has a more claim to his existence than your grand father as an outside person because vyasa authored many scriptures and his forms as statues are at many places in bharat. So practically he has more claim than ur gf or ggf?

 

[shivsomashekhar]

What if your grand father has not fathered any children, then how do u prove his existence?

Seriously?

Honestly Veda Vyasa has a more claim to his existence than your grand father as an outside person because vyasa authored many scriptures and his forms as statues are at many places in bharat. So practically he has more claim than ur gf or ggf?

Again, seriously?

 

[Aupmanyav]

My existence proves that my grandfather had children. Well, your views are yours and mine are mine. They may differ.

 

[shivsomashekhar]

There have been no archaelogical findings to the contrary, on the other hand there are that support it, for instance excavations at dvarka.

AFAIK, nothing of worth was found in Dwaraka, other than some evidence it was a port city dating no earlier than 1500 BC. This does not align with the traditional dates provided for the Mbh nor does it provide any other evidence corroborating the historic value of the epic. Besides, it is common for coastlines to sink over time (Mahabalipuram, etc.,) around the world.

Isn't this an advice you should give to sincere indologists trying to appropriate a religious scripture such as Rg Veda and writing, or rather manufacturing, history based on that? Don't tell me because they are westerners and therefore not biased and chauvinistic are allowed do exactly what we are not supposed to do!

Good point. More often that not, there is bias among Westerners too. However, this does not mean that people who support "everything Indian" claims are free from bias. Many times, it appears the latter bias is justified on the grounds that the opposition is biased!

In all honesty, our Itihasas texts (including the Puranas) are religious compendiums with countless prayers and allegories, using historic details (if any) as a mere backdrop to make the text more palatable We cannot, in good faith, consider them works on history. The Greek epics are not history either. Herodotus's book - the histories - too, is not history in the modern sense. However, Thucydides's work on the history of the Peloponnesian war (5th Century BC) comes very close what one would consider scientific history. We do not have such texts in India from that period. This is not to say that no one made an attempt, but if anyone did, it has been lost in time.