define god

[Riverwolf]

When I was still an atheist, I was debating with another atheist, who insisted that all atheists should take the stance that it is impossible to answer the question "do you believe in god" because the term "god" does not have a definition (something that can be tested via the scientific method).

I disagreed with him, and eventually came up with a definition of "intelligent entity capable of creating the laws of physics". The intelligence part could be measured with e.g. an IQ test. Demonstrating the creation of the laws of physics would not actually be provable beyond doubt, but e.g. a video showing the creation of the laws of the physics could potentially be provided as evidence for us to ponder. He wasn't able to fault this definition as "incomprehensible", but he still didn't change his stance.

Since then, I realized that there was a perfectly good model for the universe - that of a computer simulation, with God as the computer programmer (or maybe operator). Just the same as when you play a game of Pacman, except the Pacmen have artificial intelligence. You are god to them. You created (by firing up the program) their universe, and you can destroy their universe at any time (by powering down your computer). Depending on your debugging tools, you can even zap the computer memory in real time, e.g. perhaps changing Pacman's colour from yellow to red. God could well be a snotty 10 year old kid.

This provides an explanation as to where God exists (different dimension) and why you can't be sure what he looks like, but the bible verse "God made us in his own image" makes a hell of a lot of sense. ie the 10 year old kid looks like us, rather than being e.g. a giant intelligent cockroach-like creature.

I would also hazard a guess that God himself is implemented in silicon (or some equivalent), so asking what he physically looks like doesn't make a great deal of sense, since, just like Pacman, he can look like anything he or you wants. It's just a matter of rearranging a few bytes of computer code.

Computer code is extremely flexible. A better question to ask is - what sort of God and universe would you like to live in for eternity?

Ever hear about the concept of Divine Play?

 

[kerravon]

OK. Now I'd really like to know what is the place of external to the universe?
How is that state even possible, when the universe is all there is? I don't want to debate God. I just want to know more about that place.

That depends on what you mean by "universe". If you were Pacman with AI, and you were exploring your world (quite boring, eating dots), and you wanted to know more about the place where a theoretical (actually, real) God lived, and what God ate (dots?), and then God (10 year old kid) types a message in one of the lanes saying "I eat Doritos in my place, they're quite different from dots, but hard to describe", then would you, as Pacman, say "the universe is all there is"? It's just a matter of definition as to whether you include the 10 year old's dimension into your definition of "universe". Personally I don't. I consider Pacman's universe to be dots, not Doritos. The Doritos reside in a different universe/dimension.

 

[kerravon]

Ever hear about the concept of Divine Play?

No. I did a google search, but no unambigous hit. Got a link?

 

[9Westy9]

I'd like to avoid discussing the reason for god's existence, because there's already a good thread for that.

As far as I understand, a god is an elderly male person with a white beard who posses unlimited energy source, that can create a universe, and shape elements to his will. He can also create invisible living beings, whom he puts into organic robots to experience the universe, but also be a slave to his will, or else, when those living beings leave their organic robots, they'll experience burning and torture for unlimited time.

don't forget the garden. Organic robots love gardens

 

[Thief]

I believe in life after death.
This needs to be followed with some notion of what to expect.

If I can stand up from my dust....so can you...times 6billion+ other people.
If no One is in charge we stand into chaos.

To be in charge you should be....
bigger, faster, stronger, more intelligent, and greatly experienced.
Add to that, the ability to create...stacked deck.
Resistance is futile.

What was that about control?...your control?...you wanna be in charge?

Or maybe it would be better to hope for a God that created you as a free spirit....
to let you be that free spirit.

Of course, if you can't be trusted with the least of things...
how then to be trusted with anything greater?

Define God?.....Almighty.

 

[sandandfoam]

God is how I understand the wonder and the mystery in which I find myself. God is what's there when I open my senses.

 

[4Life]

God is the only one, no beginning and no end. For the sake of conversation we (people) give a gender. From himself he creates all things, for his own purpose he causes the creation to do what he intended. He has no form so that we will not bow down to any image. His love is so intense he would rather crush you than allow you to love another. LOL...He is a devine stalker, always watching, following to make sure you are true to him and putting your love and faith in him to the test.

He is like an old King who has been lied to...too many times. The words I love you mean little to him, he wants to make sure you are not a faker, someone who just wants his treasures.

He is not genie in the Bible, to make your life full of warm fuzzies. He may allow you that small taste of his glorious presence...but if you really want his all, you have to give him your all. Lukewarm just won't do.

 

[confused453]

don't forget the garden. Organic robots love gardens

you mean botanical gardens

 

[9Westy9]

you mean botanical gardens

or gardens of eden centre

 

[Levite]

OK. Now I'd really like to know what is the place of external to the universe?
How is that state even possible, when the universe is all there is? I don't want to debate God. I just want to know more about that place.

It's not such a conceptual jump. There are various scholia in physics that postulate other universes, or other quantum realities, or both. The idea that there might somehow be something outside this universe is not confined to religious mysticism. Religious mysticism just explores it in a different way.

But if nothing else, what is external to the universe is not necessarily another place, but simply God: the being that created the universe, infinitely surrounding it through an unbounded eternity.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Here's my attempt at defining God. There are probably more details depending on the particular religion, but I'd say thatif something doesn't meet it, I wouldn't consider it God/a god:

A god is an intelligent, non-human entity of great power that is worshipped by human beings.

God is a god (see above) who is either the most powerful or only god, and who is ultimately responsible for the universe and the things in it, which were created by God as a deliberate act of will.

 

[Riverwolf]

No. I did a google search, but no unambigous hit. Got a link?

Divine Play ("Lila") refers to the philosophical notion that all this world is God's Play; that every event, every action, every movement, is God's Play at work.

It's a philosophy that, as far as I know, exists primarily in Hinduism.

 

[confused453]

If you were Pacman with AI...

Pacman on the screen is still in our universe. Programming is nothing more than an automation of moving pictures. AI is just complex programming. It would be no different if you would keep drawing pictures on the sand.
And this doesn't explain a place external to the universe in any way.

 

[confused453]

It's not such a conceptual jump. There are various scholia in physics that postulate other universes.

Those are theories, which constantly change based on new evidence, and may no longer be valid in the future, if there's a good reason for that.

But if nothing else, what is external to the universe is not necessarily another place, but simply God: the being that created the universe, infinitely surrounding it through an unbounded eternity.

So you're saying that if we live inside the sphere of the universe, then God surrounds the sphere's surface?
Not that I agree, but it's still interesting to see things the way you see them.

 

[Levite]

Those are theories, which constantly change based on new evidence, and may no longer be valid in the future, if there's a good reason for that.

Regardless, they still demonstrate the idea that it could be possible for something outside our universe to exist.

So you're saying that if we live inside the sphere of the universe, then God surrounds the sphere's surface?

You could put it that way, in a manner of speaking.

 

[confused453]

Regardless, they still demonstrate the idea that it could be possible for something outside our universe to exist.

It doesn't matter. Marvel universe demonstrates lots of stuff like mutant powers and other super cool stuff. But none of it is true.

 

[Breathe]

Define God?
I can't do that in any meaningful way other than that I believe God is formless, transcendent yet immanent, true bliss Consciousness, and Love, and that I am a piece of God. Otherwise I can only say what I don't think God is.

And I don't think God is a man on a cloud with a beard and lightning bolts who sends people to Hell because they don't believe in him.

I've never heard anything like this:

As far as I understand, a god is an elderly male person with a white beard who posses unlimited energy source, that can create a universe, and shape elements to his will. He can also create invisible living beings, whom he puts into organic robots to experience the universe, but also be a slave to his will, or else, when those living beings leave their organic robots, they'll experience burning and torture for unlimited time.

Except from some non-believers who think that is what some believers think. Even from some fundies I've met, I've never heard it.

 

[kerravon]

Pacman on the screen is still in our universe.

I'm not talking about what is on the screen. I'm talking about from Pacman's point of view as an AI creature. He can inspect his world, it may even be three dimensions. All he sees are dots, ghosts, and throw in some other pacmen so that he doesn't feel lonely. He cannot in any way see your screen. That's in your universe.

Programming is nothing more than an automation of moving pictures. AI is just complex programming. It would be no different if you would keep drawing pictures on the sand.

It's very different. Pictures in sand are undeniably in our universe.

And this doesn't explain a place external to the universe in any way.

Yes it does. The same answer you would potentially give to a Pacman asking another Pacman saying "is there a God? If so, where is he?", may, at least as a possibility, be the exact same answer that applies to your own question along similar lines.

I recommend the movie "The Thirteenth Floor". You can very clearly see the different universes, you can transfer your brain between universes, and you can see the ethical questions arising as to "those people are just as real as us" vs "are you mad? it's ********* silicon". And then (spoiler alert), the people discussing that find out that they're in the exact same boat. There's another level above them!

 

[Levite]

It doesn't matter. Marvel universe demonstrates lots of stuff like mutant powers and other super cool stuff. But none of it is true.

I don't believe I am suggesting that the universe is factually described in Marvel comics. Or even in DC, for that matter.

What I am saying is that yes, any specific given theory of multiversal or quantum division physics may be in error. But any or all can model the idea that there may be something outside the physical universe we live in.

Many things have been discovered to be true, or have been invented, because radical new ideas were introduced into a world wherein no such thing was deemed possible. These ideas have often been in fiction, or myths, or legends, or stories that inspired great thinkers and doers to make discoveries or invent new things.

Additionally, it seems both short-sighted and presumptuous to say that a thing cannot be because our science and technology as it currently exists has not proven it, or cannot measure it, or has not yet figured out how it might work. By those standards, most of what we use in our daily lives-- to say nothing of what we currently understand about the universe-- would have been dismissed as the most lurid of fantasy just a century or two ago.

Bearing in mind how far we may go in increasing and changing our knowledge in the next hundred or two years, to say nothing of the next thousand or two, I guess I would just personally be uncomfortable with saying definitively that there can't be anything outside our universe, or there can't be beings that exist outside time and space, or any other such thing.

 

[confused453]

I'm not talking about what is on the screen. I'm talking about from Pacman's point of view as an AI creature.

Pacman is not real therefore cannot have a point of view. The movie is about virtual reality. If you believe that our world is virtual reality, and God is the administrator/programmer, just say so.