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Defining Atheism/Nontheism/Etc

muichimotsu

Holding All and None
This question has persisted in my mind and there are many inquiries to put forth about it, but these three seem to suffice for a beginning discussion. I will start a new topic if new questions come up in the discussion at present with these three questions

1)How do you define atheism in its degree? The prefix a tends to only imply a lacking, similar to words like apathy and ataxia. To say that an atheist believes there is no God or says "There is no God" would seem mistaken by the very etymology of the word in question. To properly qualify a person that says there is no God would be to call them a contratheist. And then there are people that say that the concept of God is a heinous/unethical or otherwise objectionable thing to believe in, which would be what I would term an antitheist.

The term nontheist might be said to only cause more confusion, since its similarity of prefix with the a prefix would suggest they are basically similar. But it could actually serve as an umbrella term for a larger variety of differing beliefs held in relation to God, all of which are essentially not belief in God in any sense, be it through skepticism, rationalism or other related modes of thought one could posit. This would be to distinguish systems of thought that don't speak about belief in God but about God's relevance and meaningfulness, which range from agnosticism and skepticism to ignosticism, igtheism and apatheism, which I can explain if one is confused by the novel words I introduce.

2)A less considered difficulty of defining atheism is defining the part of the word that varies by the believer in a deity or deities. How do you define this term and justify it in contrast to other definitions, such as the deist and pantheist conceptions of God, not to mention the polytheist conception of deity as well as the bitheist description, where God is two complementary natures/forms/entities of sorts? If you define an atheist as one who does not believe in one God but could believe in multiple gods, the term becomes very convoluted to accurately define. It is usually easier to just suggest that an atheist disbelieves in any personal deities, but then this suggests that you can be an atheist and believe in a transcendent non personal force (like the Force in Star Wars for example, or the Tao in Taoism). So the term is then extended to a lack of belief or disbelief in the transcendent. But then this becomes difficult to define as well, since we can have transcendent experiences and believe in them, but not believe that they are supernatural, so the definition extends to supernatural. But as far as we try to define it, we keep coming up with new difficulties of language in relation to anything connected to divinity.


3)Related to this idea is how to define the extent of the person's beliefs or lack thereof about God. For example, a newborn child or a person that has not been exposed to any beliefs about monotheism for example could be considered atheistic. But in that same line of thought, many people have accused Deists and pantheists of being atheists because they deny certain qualities of God to be part of God's nature. Pantheists deny both God's personal and transcendent nature and Deists deny God's personal nature primarily. In short, the term atheist could actually even be extended to polytheists, since they believe not in a single personal deity, nor commonly in a transcendent deity, but in fact multiple deities with human characteristics and many of which are immanently present in the universe.
 

Rhizomatic

Vaguely (Post)Postmodern
I find defining atheism as a lack of belief in gods* to be unproblematic (though the strong/weak dichotomy is certainly useful, as there are plenty who actively believe that there are no gods). As pantheism and deism are both explicitly beliefs in a specific form of god I see them as (mono)theistic. The idea that this allows one to think of Taoists as atheist doesn't bother me--transcendent, non-personal forces like destiny, the force, Tao, or the Wiccan law of return aren't gods, so atheists can believe in them along with ghosts, afterlives, angels, demons, and all sorts of supernatural things that also aren't gods. At least to me the wording "lack of belief in gods" implies all, not some, gods (though for the sake of explicit clarity I suppose adding "all" to the definition could be helpful), so it would include newborns with no concept of gods but not people with belief in only one conception of god(s).
 
I find the idea of defining a non-thing to be utterly pointless. Atheism isn't an ism at all. It's the lack of one. It's just language games.

How would you define someone who did not believe that purple unicorns orbit the moon? Do you think not believing something like that should be a paradigm shaping mental event? This line of thinking boggles my mind.
 

tomteapack

tomteapack
This question has persisted in my mind and there are many inquiries to put forth about it, but these three seem to suffice for a beginning discussion. I will start a new topic if new questions come up in the discussion at present with these three questions

1)How do you define atheism in its degree? The prefix a tends to only imply a lacking, similar to words like apathy and ataxia. To say that an atheist believes there is no God or says "There is no God" would seem mistaken by the very etymology of the word in question. To properly qualify a person that says there is no God would be to call them a contratheist. And then there are people that say that the concept of God is a heinous/unethical or otherwise objectionable thing to believe in, which would be what I would term an antitheist.

The term nontheist might be said to only cause more confusion, since its similarity of prefix with the a prefix would suggest they are basically similar. But it could actually serve as an umbrella term for a larger variety of differing beliefs held in relation to God, all of which are essentially not belief in God in any sense, be it through skepticism, rationalism or other related modes of thought one could posit. This would be to distinguish systems of thought that don't speak about belief in God but about God's relevance and meaningfulness, which range from agnosticism and skepticism to ignosticism, igtheism and apatheism, which I can explain if one is confused by the novel words I introduce.

2)A less considered difficulty of defining atheism is defining the part of the word that varies by the believer in a deity or deities. How do you define this term and justify it in contrast to other definitions, such as the deist and pantheist conceptions of God, not to mention the polytheist conception of deity as well as the bitheist description, where God is two complementary natures/forms/entities of sorts? If you define an atheist as one who does not believe in one God but could believe in multiple gods, the term becomes very convoluted to accurately define. It is usually easier to just suggest that an atheist disbelieves in any personal deities, but then this suggests that you can be an atheist and believe in a transcendent non personal force (like the Force in Star Wars for example, or the Tao in Taoism). So the term is then extended to a lack of belief or disbelief in the transcendent. But then this becomes difficult to define as well, since we can have transcendent experiences and believe in them, but not believe that they are supernatural, so the definition extends to supernatural. But as far as we try to define it, we keep coming up with new difficulties of language in relation to anything connected to divinity.


3)Related to this idea is how to define the extent of the person's beliefs or lack thereof about God. For example, a newborn child or a person that has not been exposed to any beliefs about monotheism for example could be considered atheistic. But in that same line of thought, many people have accused Deists and pantheists of being atheists because they deny certain qualities of God to be part of God's nature. Pantheists deny both God's personal and transcendent nature and Deists deny God's personal nature primarily. In short, the term atheist could actually even be extended to polytheists, since they believe not in a single personal deity, nor commonly in a transcendent deity, but in fact multiple deities with human characteristics and many of which are immanently present in the universe.
Atheism is the lack of a belief in any god or gods--that is its definition.
polytheists believe in gods, therefore they cannot be atheists-diests believe in a god, they cannot be atheists, pantheists believe in a god or gods, they cannot be atheists.
In short, only an atheist is an atheist.
The reason one is an atheist has NOTHING to do with being an atheist. You may have decided that religion is nonsense, or you may have never heard the concept of a god, either way, you are an atheist.
 

Spiral Galaxy

///\oo/\\\
(a)theism is concerned with believing and (a)gnosticism is concerned with knowing

Thus Non-theism is nothing to do with "not needing to know", at best it might be used to imply "not needing to believe". At a stretch I might suggest Non-gnosticism might be taken to mean not needing to know but it seems an unconvincing use of language.
 

SageTree

Spiritual Friend
Premium Member
What's the 'information'?

And doesn't one have to have a little faith in accepting that information as fact?

(just keeping the convo rolling)
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
If you look upon your universe and it does not contain any deity that seems real to you, then you are both "non-theist" and "atheist" (without theism). If you go one step further and look at the means by which you would or would not actually come to know about whether a deity is real or not (i.e. that it "exists") and you find no tools or information available to you to make that determination as a matter of knowledge, then you are also agnostic (without knowledge).
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Here is a thread I started on Non-theism a while back:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-religious-debates/102299-non-theism-eh.html

In my mind non-theism is the 'I dont need to know' rather than a 'yes' 'no' 'maybe' answer....

I could be 'wrong', but we are using labels here :D
IMO, atheism and non-theism are synonyms, but some people prefer to describe themselves as "non-theist" because of the baggage that their culture (or maybe they themselves) has attached to the word "atheist".
 
I don't believe that any kind of gods ,demons or spiritual forces exsist.
I do believe these things are a result of human imagination and emotion.
I believe UFOs, alien visitors and abductions are a modern extension of the same. There are other life forms in the universe and this I am sure of simply because of the statistical nature of this issue.
Nature is not in any way god and should not be thought of as such. The term god implies worship and reverence. Nature is what it is. It's life. Enjoy it, experience it, deal with it, make the best of it without completeletly ruining some one elses experience.
Atheist is a good enough term for now until somebody comes up with something better.
 

SageTree

Spiritual Friend
Premium Member
What 'non-theism' brings to my mind, since I don't really like it to be so black and white, yes and no....

Is that, I don't like it as a synonym to 'atheist'.

It doesn't allow any sort of middle ground or breathing room to acknowledge that we are merely trying to explain our existence in conceptual terms, the best our minds can produce and sentiments in the dichotomy along that line.

It's not saying 'yes or no' ,rather it comes in the form of 'not engaging' in the conversation or 'not placing importance' on the role of God.

Non-theism in my mind doesn't mean that God(s) do or don't exist... it's more about the willful refraining from engaging in the conversation and just resting in the 'knowledge' or 'experiences' you have.

It's more like a 'living your knowledge' rather than wrapping yourself up in talking about it on either 'side'.

This is why I wish Non-theism was a different middle and didn't only leave 'agnostic' as the apparent, so called 'middle.

Do you get where I'm coming from?

It's like saying, 'regardless of what I believe, I'm going to just live my life how I want to, based on what I want to, and not get wrapped up in the ism schizms.'


And a few more things to add to the topic:

What about things like these, which seem to insuinuate more of a 'knowledge/experience/reasoning' and/or acknowledgement of God, but without the 'Theisms' and other attachments and the like?

Transtheistic:
Transtheistic is a term coined by philosopher Paul Tillich or Indologist Heinrich Zimmer, referring to a system of thought or religious philosophy which is neither theistic, nor atheistic.

Zimmer applies the term to the theological system of Jainism, which is theistic in the limited sense that the gods exist, but become immaterial as they are transcended by moksha (that is, a system which is not non-theistic, but in which the gods are not the highest spiritual instance). Zimmer (1953, p. 182) uses the term to describe the position of the Tirthankaras having passed "beyond the godly governors of the natural order".

The term has more recently also been applied to Buddhism, Advaita Vedanta and the Bhakti movement.

Post-theism
Post-theism is a variant of nontheism that proposes to have not so much rejected theism as rendered it obsolete, that God belongs to a stage of human development now past. Within nontheism, post-theism can be contrasted with antitheism. The term appears in Christian liberal theology and Postchristianity.

Non-theist Friend (Quaker)
A nontheist Friend or an atheist Quaker is someone who affiliates with, identifies with, engages in and/or affirms Quaker practices and processes, but who does not necessarily accept a belief in a theistic understanding of God, a Supreme Being, the divine, the soul or the supernatural. Like traditional Friends, nontheist Friends are actively interested in realizing centered peace, simplicity, integrity, community, equality, love, joy, and social justice in the Society of Friends and beyond.

Non-Theism in Christianity
A few liberal Christian theologians, define a "nontheistic God" as "the ground of all being" rather than as a personal divine being. John Shelby Spong refers to a theistic God as "a personal being with expanded supernatural, human, and parental qualities, which has shaped every religious idea of the Western world."

Many of them owe much of their theology to the work of Christian existentialist philosopher Paul Tillich, including the phrase "the ground of all being".

Another quotation from Tillich is, "God does not exist. He is being itself beyond essence and existence. Therefore to argue that God exists is to deny him."

This Tillich quotation summarizes his conception of God. He does not think of God as a being which exists in time and space, because that constrains God, and makes God finite. But all beings are finite, and if God is the Creator of all beings, God cannot logically be finite since a finite being cannot be the sustainer of an infinite variety of finite things. Thus God is considered beyond being, above finitude and limitation, the power or essence of being itself.

Secular humanist Sidney Hook wrote in an essay called "The Atheism of Paul Tillich":
With amazing courage Tillich boldly says that the God of the multitudes does not exist, and further, that to believe in His existence is to believe in an idol and ultimately to embrace superstition. God cannot be an entity among entities, even the highest. He is being-in-itself. In this sense Tillich's God is like the God of Spinoza and the God of Hegel. Both Spinoza and Hegel were denounced for their atheism by the theologians of the past because their God was not a Being or an Entity. Tillich, however, is one of the foremost theologians of our time.


In my Life/Experience, the way I conduct myself isn't based on ''What God is or isn't''... not based on ''Does God exist or not?''.... not focused on ''How to do label and define God in conceptual terms'', rather I focus my Self on the marvelling and the mystery of our interconnectedness, being thankful, doing what is 'right' over judging 'good or bad'....

Basically... Trying to explain myself a little better...Living my life in a Way that God or a secular humanist would find best and most helpful.... that Both would approve of.... heh... maybe that was one whack at expalination too many ;)

So yea... Only living to help and not hurt... not based on either/or, existent/not existent....

I hope this adds to the conversation and is well understood as to what I'm trying to say, with out being overly finite, limitting or unfairly definative to having so-called 'knowledge'.

:namaste
SageTree
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
What 'non-theism' brings to my mind, since I don't really like it to be so black and white, yes and no....

Is that, I don't like it as a synonym to 'atheist'.

It doesn't allow any sort of middle ground or breathing room to acknowledge that we are merely trying to explain our existence in conceptual terms, the best our minds can produce and sentiments in the dichotomy along that line.

That's perfectly allowable under the wide umbrella of the term "atheist". IMO, if you think it isn't, then this just comes down to the cultural baggage I touched upon earlier.

It's not saying 'yes or no' ,rather it comes in the form of 'not engaging' in the conversation or 'not placing importance' on the role of God.
Do we have different terms for non-smokers who don't smoke because they're opposed to cigarettes and non-smokers who don't smoke because they "don't engage" in the debate over smoking?

Non-theism in my mind doesn't mean that God(s) do or don't exist... it's more about the willful refraining from engaging in the conversation and just resting in the 'knowledge' or 'experiences' you have.

Hmm. To me, it just means not believing in any gods... just like atheism.

It's more like a 'living your knowledge' rather than wrapping yourself up in talking about it on either 'side'.
This is why I wish Non-theism was a different middle and didn't only leave 'agnostic' as the apparent, so called 'middle.

There's ignostic, but IMO, ignostics are still also either theists or atheists (generally atheists, I would say).

And I disagree with the idea that "agnostic" is some sort of neutral middle ground.

Do you get where I'm coming from?
Yes. I think you're exactly the sort of person I referred to earlier: you don't hold any beliefs in any gods (or at least it sounds like you don't; I may be mistaken), but when you look at all the people who call themselves "atheist" and what they say, you see something you don't like.

Or that's my impression, anyhow.

It's like saying, 'regardless of what I believe, I'm going to just live my life how I want to, based on what I want to, and not get wrapped up in the ism schizms.'
So you don't care whether you're an atheist or a theist; that doesn't make you not an atheist or a theist; it just means you're not particularily invested in the label.

There are many labels that technically apply to me that I don't really care too much about: "size 7 1/2 hat-wearer", for instance. While that label has next to no bearing on my life and doesn't really do anything to define me as a person, it is accurate. Same with the labels "theist" or "atheist" for people... even if they don't care about the label.

And a few more things to add to the topic:

What about things like these, which seem to insuinuate more of a 'knowledge/experience/reasoning' and/or acknowledgement of God, but without the 'Theisms' and other attachments and the like?

Transtheistic:
I think "transtheism" is nonsense, since it tries to find a third option when, by definition, there are only two. Do you believe in any gods? If the answer is yes, you're a theist. If it's no, you're an atheist/non-theist. Other answers like "maybe" or "I don't care" aren't really responsive or valid.

It seems to me that "post-theism" refers to something different: whether god(s) matter to you. This is a different question than whether you believe they exist. Like I said above, the reply "I don't care" is unresponsive and invalid when answering the question "do you believe in any gods?"

"Non-theist Friends" are a subset of atheists/non-theists.
 

SageTree

Spiritual Friend
Premium Member
Thanks Penguine, I'm on the road right now and will probably have to read over that a few more times, but I really appreciate you taking the time to answer/engage.

Basically I'm not interested in labels because the people 'know' you... know what I mean?
I just want to live and practice helping and not harming other people...
And to me... labels often are more hurtful than helpful in this areana...
However... there are times for everything... like Solomon said ;)
turn turn turn.....

I'll be back to this conversation for sure.

Thanks Brother.
Take care,
SageTree
 

SageTree

Spiritual Friend
Premium Member
I don't think I have theistic/divine ideas about what 'God is'.....

What is that called? ;)

I don't know/don't care how we were/ weren't created...

We're here now... that is what matters to me.....

Either way it wouldn't effect the way I practice living my Life if there was proof one way or the other what happened, I think I engage in 'right living' to the best of my ability and that philosophy is what I practice and explore and investigate.

I give thanks for my life, or am thankful for it... you could say...


Unrelated talking point:
Recently I heard the term 'Apatheist' what do you make of that conceptual term???



Related talking point:
Is there Atheist spirituality or philosophical practice???

Honestly.... I never get anyone to engage me on that one, and I don't know why.
But would you please endulge me?


What I think:
I believe there is interconnectedness throughout the Universe and that certainly has an emperical basis, but also... there is still mystery in that interconnectedness that I feel can be explored/engaged/uncovered and Known.

I have more 'belief' in interconnectedness and the power/usefulness in that, than I would say I do about 'God'....

'God' is more of an umberalla term or one pointed conception to label that 'mystery'.

Where do I 'stand' man?

:)

This is why I try to live and not tumble the question around...
It doesn't really help me at all except to 'market' myself in a conversation.
 

SageTree

Spiritual Friend
Premium Member
Not bad for 'not having time' eh?

LOL!

You had a good reply man.


Labels are THE baggage to me maaaaan.


I try to live outside of or with a deep awareness that 'conceptualize' is a conceptual term. ;)
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I don't think I have theistic/divine ideas about what 'God is'.....

What is that called? ;)
Frankly, I think it sounds like you're some sort of atheist. IMO, having a concept of God is necessary before you can have a belief in God... and if you don't believe in any gods, then you've met the one and only requirement for being an atheist.

I don't know/don't care how we were/ weren't created...

We're here now... that is what matters to me.....
And I don't care about my hat size. Nevertheless, I realize that I have one.

Unrelated talking point:
Recently I heard the term 'Apatheist' what do you make of that conceptual term???
I think it can be useful descriptor, but it's a side issue to the atheist/theist dichotomy. Saying that you don't care about gods doesn't speak to whether you believe in them or not. An apatheist could be a theist or an atheist; he'd just be someone who doesn't put any weight behind that belief (or lack thereof).

Related talking point:
Is there Atheist spirituality or philosophical practice???

Honestly.... I never get anyone to engage me on that one, and I don't know why.
But would you please endulge me?
I think most (all?) legitimate philosophy does not depend on a god, so it's certainly accessible to atheists. As for spirituality... if you can define the term for me, then maybe I can answer. As it stands now, I've never heard a satisfactory explanation for what "spirituality" actually means.
 

SageTree

Spiritual Friend
Premium Member
I believe more in the unknown unknowns about our existence, than I believe that we'll ever have the vaugest hope of being able to test those questions, let alone even know where to start.

It's something more like that in my mind.

In experiences that can't be explained but shouldn't just be written off as brain chemistry.

Some might call it 'divine spark'.... but I'll settle for just the amazing and unfathomable ways in which we're intertwinded...

Gravity is a word that comes to mind... we know somethings about it...
It's perhaps one of THE most important things that makes our universe 'be' the way it is....

Gravity isnt' spirituality.... but it's something that makes the Cosmos 'work'.

All I know is I have more vested in bringing to light that connection between us all, than where it comes from.

Maybe I don't 'get' science enough... but to some extent I feel it has some belief or assumptions in it and while they might not be the leaps of religion... I DO think there is still an assumption that there are only 5 senses or that there are only 5 that count in emperical evidence.

Thanks for the banter... I'm not dead set here... I just appreciate being able to type some of these ideas and thoughts out, processing them.... seeing deeper into myself and others....
 

SageTree

Spiritual Friend
Premium Member
My concept of God is that the word "God" is a conceptual label.... but I have a list of experiences that some folks might call God or Theism...

I consider myself the leftest of the leftwing in the relm of 'theism'... but also see how I fit into an atheism as well in that.

Spinoza's God makes sense to me in some ways... but some people say that isn't a God at all....
 
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Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
1)How do you define atheism in its degree? The prefix a tends to only imply a lacking, similar to words like apathy and ataxia. To say that an atheist believes there is no God or says "There is no God" would seem mistaken by the very etymology of the word in question. To properly qualify a person that says there is no God would be to call them a contratheist. And then there are people that say that the concept of God is a heinous/unethical or otherwise objectionable thing to believe in, which would be what I would term an antitheist.

Muichimotsu, your basis for analyzing the meaning of atheism is flawed in that it assumes that the meaning is grounded in composition and etymology. That approach is known as an etymological fallacy. There is a negative prefix a- in English, but it is only productive as a prefix on adjectives, not nouns. The word atheism was borrowed from French in the Middle English or Early Modern English period, and it has since undergone a shift of stress onto the initial syllable. If the meaning were brought about by a prefixing process, then the stress would more likely be on the same syllable as in theism, i.e. aTHEism, just as it is in non-Theism, which is formed by the attachment of non- to the noun. The basis for determining word meanings is usage, not etymology.

That said, I would offer my own definition of atheism, which differs from the one that is preferred by most atheists (at least in internet discussion forums): "Rejection of belief in gods." I take it as normally understood by English speakers that atheists are people who know what gods are, and that would preclude attributing the label to babies or animals.

2)A less considered difficulty of defining atheism is defining the part of the word that varies by the believer in a deity or deities. How do you define this term and justify it in contrast to other definitions, such as the deist and pantheist conceptions of God, not to mention the polytheist conception of deity as well as the bitheist description, where God is two complementary natures/forms/entities of sorts? If you define an atheist as one who does not believe in one God but could believe in multiple gods, the term becomes very convoluted to accurately define. It is usually easier to just suggest that an atheist disbelieves in any personal deities, but then this suggests that you can be an atheist and believe in a transcendent non personal force (like the Force in Star Wars for example, or the Tao in Taoism). So the term is then extended to a lack of belief or disbelief in the transcendent. But then this becomes difficult to define as well, since we can have transcendent experiences and believe in them, but not believe that they are supernatural, so the definition extends to supernatural. But as far as we try to define it, we keep coming up with new difficulties of language in relation to anything connected to divinity.
The semantics of words is complicated in two different ways: vagueness and ambiguity. All words are ambiguous and vague, and their meanings can change radically in running conversational contexts. The meaning of atheism depends on the meaning of god, and that word itself has several different word senses. Generally speaking, gods are supernatural beings thought to have control over some aspect of reality (or all aspects, in the case of God). Atheists reject belief in such beings. However, you do get a lot of different explanations of what "god" means from different believers.

3)Related to this idea is how to define the extent of the person's beliefs or lack thereof about God. For example, a newborn child or a person that has not been exposed to any beliefs about monotheism for example could be considered atheistic. But in that same line of thought, many people have accused Deists and pantheists of being atheists because they deny certain qualities of God to be part of God's nature. Pantheists deny both God's personal and transcendent nature and Deists deny God's personal nature primarily. In short, the term atheist could actually even be extended to polytheists, since they believe not in a single personal deity, nor commonly in a transcendent deity, but in fact multiple deities with human characteristics and many of which are immanently present in the universe.
People extend word meanings all the time, so I don't see a problem here as long as it is clear within a conversational context how the word is being extended. Problems occur when people use the same word to mean different things and then argue over whose definition should be preferred. Hence, I often find myself embroiled in arguments with atheists who want to extend the meaning of "atheist" to include babies or people who do not understand the concept of a god.
 
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