dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Where does God fit into this? You are saying a spiritual reality exists? What is it that distinguishes God from the spiritual reality?
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Defining GOD
- Thread starter Ostronomos
- Start date
Where does God fit into this? You are saying a spiritual reality exists? What is it that distinguishes God from the spiritual reality?
dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Then I propose it is is not filled; it is flowing. Maybe not overflowing, but forever flowing.
Oh I see, you are seeing filled as in limited and full. I see it as infinite absolutely such that no life can exist apart from it. No beauty, no glory, no praise, but that it has it.
dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Yes.
Agreed, but... I also apply forebearance. Without going deep into it: I see it that there are two ways to receive vitality which permits existence. Direct from God and indirect from God. The indirect is the source of vitality for the material existence. And that's what produces the duality of material/spiritual. So, yes, nothing exists apart from it, but, how it is connected could be direct or indirect depending on the choices that are made. Indirect connection, receiving indirect vitality, has consequences, it's 'cursed'.
Sorry, I don't understand this part. Maybe rephrase?
God is alive, living, in the clear horizon we are all connected to. Atheist exist in God's judgment and use his light for morality -good and evil as well. The difference is a believer is pointing in direction of God while the disbelievers are running away from Him.
Polytheists also would not be able to do "good" "honorable" "valuable" actions nor see any "beauty" whether spiritually or physically - if it were not that God is the Absolute truth and basis to all that. So whatever they see in their gods that is beautiful is from God and whatever is ugly, is from the darkness.
God is in all things and so is his proof and greatest signs - the family of revelation. There is no spark of life but that he is the center of it's spark. When we sin, God and Imam of time thunders warnings, the thundering is his own vision of truth from his light, and that light is connected to God. Without an objective connection to God and warning in this regard, we would have an excuse for acting on impulses from the evil companion from Iblis.
We exist in his vision. Everything else does too. Nothing can exist except from his command be and it is, his breath, his vision.
God is also beyond, but that is part how we see him in the horizon. We see him beyond and close, manifest yet hidden, hidden in his appearance, appearing in his hiddenness.
He is One such that nothing can be absent from him and nothing can be his equal. Vision fall short of truly seeing him, yet no vision is without his truth somehow mixed in it.
I think there are as many definitions of gods as there are god believers
God is a single essence that unites infinite possible existing essences (that are of lesser nature). So horizontally, there is infinite attributes of God. Vertically, they are all one and the same essence at the ultimate - a singularity.
I'm unsure why you feel this way.
It's because I believe good, honor, value, beauty are universal in all possible worlds, they are necessary. Yet without a Necessary being seeing that, none of these would be possible. Any knowledge of it, is from his descent or ascent towards him, depending on the direction we are going.
I believe without a necessary being, good, morality, value, honor, would be illusions and anyone can make them out to be whatever they want. A world created by beings in this case, it would be politics - some going on top of each other, and there would be chaos and disagreement. There would be no path, no higher or lower, just politics spiritually and no way to know the truth with respect to who we truly are.
Peace @JustGeorge ,
There is this proof by contradiction for God I have presented years ago.
I hate how my hair looks damn it, *cringes*- I should've let it dry first.
There is this proof by contradiction for God I have presented years ago.
I hate how my hair looks damn it, *cringes*- I should've let it dry first.
Haha thanks, it's in short:I'm not sure I followed the argument.
But your hair looks fine!
(1) Without morality being eternal, a hypothetical creator (that is non-god assumed possible for sake of argument) can make it whatever it wishes including it being good to torture a soul forever for no crime.
(2) It's not possible it be morally good to torture a soul forever for no crime.
c1 Therefore morality is eternal.
(3) Morality requires perception (does not exist physically)
c2 A Eternal perceiver of morality exists. c1 + 3
(4) Morality includes all possible levels of moral greatness.
(5) Only way to perceive absolute highest reality of moral greatness is to be that.
Therefore God exists c2 + 4 +5
Thanks for the further explanation.
But, could morality be something other than eternal?
Could a creator be free of morality(which, to me, seems to be more of a human construct)?
I like point 5, though. Sometimes the only way to understand is through experience...
Morality cannot be but eternal. A creator cannot be free of morality.
However, I can't assume this to be true. So I assume the opposite, then prove by contradiction that morality is eternal and God must be the Creator.
dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Are you interested in feedback on this?
Yes. The version in the video is slightly longer, it has additional premises "It would be arbitrary...if arbitrary..." but I think I can shorten it.
dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
(1) Without morality being eternal, a hypothetical creator (that is non-god assumed possible for sake of argument) can make it whatever it wishes including it being good to torture a soul forever for no crime.
Agreed.
(2) It's not possible it be morally good to torture a soul forever for no crime.
Sadly, this is not true. Moral goodness for the malevolent includes eternal torture of the innocent because it this is pleasing to it. Goodness = pleasure from harming innocent. Eternal torture = eternal pleasure = eternal goodness.
(3) Morality requires perception (does not exist physically)
This is the biggest problem, imo, with this logic.
Morality does not require perception.
If I commit a crime and no one perceives it, it is still a crime.
Justice requires perception.
Mercy requires perception.
Proving there is divine perception requires proving that there is divine justice or divine mercy.
Sadly, there is no *consistent* evidence of either.
On the other hand, it's probably good that each individual's spiritual crimes are not on display for all to see.
As long as there is not consistent evidence of divine justice or divine mercy, then it is still possible for a god to exist which is ambivalent, blind, malevolent, or absent.
As long as that possibility exists, there is no proof, but there is an opportunity for faith.
(4) Morality includes all possible levels of moral greatness.And the converse.
(5) Only way to perceive absolute highest reality of moral greatness is to be that.
And the converse.
And there is no consistent evidence of divine perception.
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Me too.
@dybmh
I thought of a more condensed version of the argument:
1. If morality is not eternal, it would be arbitrary.
2. Morality is not arbitrary.
c1 Therefore Morality is eternal. 1 + 2
3. Morality requires perception
c2 Therefore there is a eternal perceiver of morality c1 + 3
4. Only way to perceive all levels of morality is to be God
Therefore God exists c2 + 4
You agree with only 1.
So I will elaborate. If morality is arbitrary (not 2), it's basically not existent and is an illusion. It's an illusion and has no truth. No one believes that.
As for 3, perception is required, because when think of morality, it involves analysis of the intention and action, and it requires consciousness with intention. The action (physically) is not alone what is evil or good.
As for 4, the highest moral greatness cannot be perceived by dark evil entity, but dark evil entity can only been seen and judged fully by a perfect ultimate being. So it's not the inverse.
I thought of a more condensed version of the argument:
1. If morality is not eternal, it would be arbitrary.
2. Morality is not arbitrary.
c1 Therefore Morality is eternal. 1 + 2
3. Morality requires perception
c2 Therefore there is a eternal perceiver of morality c1 + 3
4. Only way to perceive all levels of morality is to be God
Therefore God exists c2 + 4
You agree with only 1.
So I will elaborate. If morality is arbitrary (not 2), it's basically not existent and is an illusion. It's an illusion and has no truth. No one believes that.
As for 3, perception is required, because when think of morality, it involves analysis of the intention and action, and it requires consciousness with intention. The action (physically) is not alone what is evil or good.
As for 4, the highest moral greatness cannot be perceived by dark evil entity, but dark evil entity can only been seen and judged fully by a perfect ultimate being. So it's not the inverse.