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Definitely not trolling, but two verses from Qur'an...why maybe Islam should be banned in America

"Born Eunuch"

Anonymous American Black Male
First I want to say that the purpose of this thread is not to attack Islam. It is not a personal attack on anyone who believes whatever he/she believes. It is rather just factual information about why in a country like America where people have freedom of speech and freedom of expression (to certain extents,) maybe a religion that says that people should be killed for certain things should be banned in a country that lawfully gives people freedom of speech.

Now, the two verses that I would point out are Qur'an 5:33 & Qur'an 49:12.

The copy of the Yusuf Ali Qur'an translation (and one can research the merits of the Yusuf Ali translation on his/her own) that I am using could be a fake for all I know. Others can check a copy of the translation for themselves, but the copy that I am using says in chapter 5:33 that people who do the following should be killed (amongst others things:)

"wage war against Allah
And His Messenger, and strive
With might and main
For mischief through the land"

My copy uses the word "execute" in Qur'an 5:33. But one can see from this citation that maybe some Muslims do believe that some people who say certain things should be killed. In a country like America where people are lawfully granted freedom of speech to say this or that about a religion if they please, maybe a religion saying people should be killed for "waging war against Allah and His Messenger..." shouldn't be allowed.

The second verse that I would point out relates to an incident that I had with someone claiming to be a Muslim in which it appeared that this person was spying on me. I just consulted the same Qur'an translation that I discussed above, on the subject of spying and I found this verse (chapter 49:12:)

"O ye who believe!
Avoid suspicion as much
(As possible): for suspicion
In some cases is a sin:
And spy not on each other,
Nor speak ill of each other
Behind their backs. Would any
Of you like to eat
The flesh of his dead
Brother? Nay, ye would
Abhor it...But fear Allah.
For Allah is Oft-Returning,
Most Merciful."

One can see in this verse that Muslims are told in said translation "spy not on each other" as opposed to "spy not on anyone," so after my experience I don't know if Muslims believe that spying on non-Muslims is OK or what.

And to close, I want to say that I did hear a video of "Muslim" preacher Louis Farrakhan saying the following:

"...we don't give a damn about no White man law when you attack what we love."

I don't see why such people couldn't go to their own country if they don't care about the laws of the land in which they live but at any rate, the video was reportedly from "Savior's Day 1993" part 1 or part 2, "Savior's Day" being an annual Nation of Islam convention; Mr. Farrakhan was speaking about the killing of Malcolm X when he made said statement, so one can see from Mr. Farrakhan's words that some Muslims don't have any regard for American law if people like Malcolm X say certain things about their faith.

I THINK THAT THESE ARE POSSIBLE REASONS FOR ISLAM TO BE BANNED IN A COUNTRY LIKE AMERICA. Others can think about this.

Peace
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Attempting to ban a religion will only make it go underground anyway.

Which is not to say that it should not be questioned or challenged.
 

Mycroft

Ministry of Serendipity
First I want to say that the purpose of this thread is not to attack Islam. It is not a personal attack on anyone who believes whatever he/she believes. It is rather just factual information about why in a country like America where people have freedom of speech and freedom of expression (to certain extents,) maybe a religion that says that people should be killed for certain things should be banned in a country that lawfully gives people freedom of speech.

Now, the two verses that I would point out are Qur'an 5:33 & Qur'an 49:12.

The copy of the Yusuf Ali Qur'an translation (and one can research the merits of the Yusuf Ali translation on his/her own) that I am using could be a fake for all I know. Others can check a copy of the translation for themselves, but the copy that I am using says in chapter 5:33 that people who do the following should be killed (amongst others things:)

"wage war against Allah
And His Messenger, and strive
With might and main
For mischief through the land"

My copy uses the word "execute" in Qur'an 5:33. But one can see from this citation that maybe some Muslims do believe that some people who say certain things should be killed. In a country like America where people are lawfully granted freedom of speech to say this or that about a religion if they please, maybe a religion saying people should be killed for "waging war against Allah and His Messenger..." shouldn't be allowed.

The second verse that I would point out relates to an incident that I had with someone claiming to be a Muslim in which it appeared that this person was spying on me. I just consulted the same Qur'an translation that I discussed above, on the subject of spying and I found this verse (chapter 49:12:)

"O ye who believe!
Avoid suspicion as much
(As possible): for suspicion
In some cases is a sin:
And spy not on each other,
Nor speak ill of each other
Behind their backs. Would any
Of you like to eat
The flesh of his dead
Brother? Nay, ye would
Abhor it...But fear Allah.
For Allah is Oft-Returning,
Most Merciful."

One can see in this verse that Muslims are told in said translation "spy not on each other" as opposed to "spy not on anyone," so after my experience I don't know if Muslims believe that spying on non-Muslims is OK or what.

And to close, I want to say that I did hear a video of "Muslim" preacher Louis Farrakhan saying the following:

"...we don't give a damn about no White man law when you attack what we love."

I don't see why such people couldn't go to their own country if they don't care about the laws of the land in which they live but at any rate, the video was reportedly from "Savior's Day 1993" part 1 or part 2, "Savior's Day" being an annual Nation of Islam convention; Mr. Farrakhan was speaking about the killing of Malcolm X when he made said statement, so one can see from Mr. Farrakhan's words that some Muslims don't have any regard for American law if people like Malcolm X say certain things about their faith.

I THINK THAT THESE ARE POSSIBLE REASONS FOR ISLAM TO BE BANNED IN A COUNTRY LIKE AMERICA. Others can think about this.

Peace

bc7.png


Sure, ok. Let's ban Islam for that.

While we're at it, -since what's good for the Goose is good for the Gander - we'll ban Christianity for the following:

• Everything in Leviticus.
• Numbers 31:7-18
• Deuteronomy 20:10-14, 22:28-29
• 2 Samuel 12:11-14
• Judges 5:30, 21:10-2
• Exodus 21:7-11
• Zechariah 14:1-2
 
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Marisa

Well-Known Member
You know, as an extremely liberal atheist I'd really prefer we don't go around banning anything. Just because I don't like what someone else has to say doesn't mean I want that person silenced. We start doing crazy crap like that, and we can no longer call ourselves a free society. Because that's not what free societies do.
 

"Born Eunuch"

Anonymous American Black Male
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

Just saying...

So if my freedom of religion means that I can create a religion that teaches it's OK to kill certain people, and the adherents to my religion actually kill certain people because my religion teaches that it is OK and infact righteous, that type of religion should be allowed?

Obviously, the Constitution's laws can be changed.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
So if my freedom of religion means that I can create a religion that teaches it's OK to kill certain people, and the adherents to my religion actually kill certain people because my religion teaches that it is OK and infact righteous, that type of religion should be allowed?

Obviously, the Constitution's laws can be changed.

Technically, a religion that teaches to kill is ok. As long as its adherents don't actually enforce that teaching...

IMO actions are neither more nor less acceptable due to religious motivation. They should stand or fall on their own merits, including before the law.
 

"Born Eunuch"

Anonymous American Black Male
Attempting to ban a religion will only make it go underground anyway.

Which is not to say that it should not be questioned or challenged.

Well a law saying certain people should be killed and people killing on the basis of that religious belief, if that's part of your religion, maybe freedom of religion in America needs to be redefined.
 

Marisa

Well-Known Member
So if my freedom of religion means that I can create a religion that teaches it's OK to kill certain people, and the adherents to my religion actually kill certain people because my religion teaches that it is OK and infact righteous, that type of religion should be allowed?

Obviously, the Constitution's laws can be changed.
The bible teaches the same thing. Yet each time a christian kills someone in the name of their god, and it happens more often than you think (abortion clinic bombings, Dr. Tiller murdered as he sat in his church pew) we manage to try those perpetrators in a court of law. You're leading with your bigotry, and it's not leading you down a rational path.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
So if my freedom of religion means that I can create a religion that teaches it's OK to kill certain people, and the adherents to my religion actually kill certain people because my religion teaches that it is OK and infact righteous, that type of religion should be allowed?

Obviously, the Constitution's laws can be changed.

We have laws against murder.

*
 

Marisa

Well-Known Member
Well a law saying certain people should be killed and people killing on the basis of that religious belief, if that's part of your religion, maybe freedom of religion in America needs to be redefined.
It doesn't need redefining. But it does need to be taught properly. Too many religious people thinking that the state or federal buildings are their personal playgrounds to be writing idiotic laws like RFRA, or seeking legislation eliminating them from being forced the follow laws they think violate their personal beliefs (Hobby Lobby).
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Well a law saying certain people should be killed and people killing on the basis of that religious belief, if that's part of your religion, maybe freedom of religion in America needs to be redefined.

That I think it should. Preferably by refusing to have any laws that actually attempt to make exceptions for religious beliefs.
 

"Born Eunuch"

Anonymous American Black Male
bc7.png


Sure, ok. Let's ban Islam for that.

While we're at it, -since what's good for the Goose is good for the Gander - we'll ban Christianity for the following:

• Everything in Leviticus.
• Numbers 31:7-18
• Deuteronomy 20:10-14, 22:28-29
• 2 Samuel 12:11-14
• Judges 5:30, 21:10-2
• Exodus 21:7-11
• Zechariah 14:1-2

Well I don't know all of what Judaism or Christianity says about who should be killed for what. Others could examine that. But if one believes in a religion that says that it is OK to kill someone for just saying this or that about your faith if it is interpreted as "waging war against your God and your Prophet and making mischief," and people actually kill others in that belief, then why in the world should that religion be allowed in a country that practices freedom of speech?
 
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"Born Eunuch"

Anonymous American Black Male
You know, as an extremely liberal atheist I'd really prefer we don't go around banning anything. Just because I don't like what someone else has to say doesn't mean I want that person silenced. We start doing crazy crap like that, and we can no longer call ourselves a free society. Because that's not what free societies do.

I like the idea of freedom, but freedom to practice a religion that teaches to kill others for merely talking about your religion and adherents to that religion actually killing others in your society...maybe "freedom of religion" needs to be redefined.
 

Marisa

Well-Known Member
Well I don't know all of what Judaism or Christianity says about who should be killed for what. Others could examine that. But if one believes in a religion that says that it is OK to kill someone for just saying this or that about your faith if it is interpreted as "waging war against your God and your Prophet and making mischief," and people actually kill others in that belief, then why in the world should that religion be allowed in a FREE country?
Why are people allowed to be christians when the bible says you should kill anyone who doesn't believe what you believe or who deconverts others?

Deuteronomy 13:6-10New International Version (NIV)
6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods, gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

Because in a free society people are free to believe what they wish to believe, but they are not free to violate anyone else's freedoms. That's how that works.
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
Well a law saying certain people should be killed and people killing on the basis of that religious belief, if that's part of your religion, maybe freedom of religion in America needs to be redefined.
Or maybe you need to grasp that like the Bible, taking the Quran at face-value is immensely stupid, as it completely ignores the centuries of analysis and cultural development incurred since it was written. Just a thought.
 

"Born Eunuch"

Anonymous American Black Male
It doesn't need redefining. But it does need to be taught properly. Too many religious people thinking that the state or federal buildings are their personal playgrounds to be writing idiotic laws like RFRA, or seeking legislation eliminating them from being forced the follow laws they think violate their personal beliefs (Hobby Lobby).

Well the people should be the ones to say what goes on in the land...if the people wanted a religion that teaches it's OK to kill certain people for saying this or that about your religion outlawed, then I don't see why it can't be outlawed.
 

Marisa

Well-Known Member
I like the idea of freedom, but freedom to practice a religion that teaches to kill others for merely talking about your religion and adherents to that religion actually killing others in your society...maybe "freedom of religion" needs to be redefined.
Nope, sorry. You're wrong. You can't have freedom if you aren't free to believe whatever you'd like. I will defend unto my last breath anyone's right to believe that I should be put to death for not believing what they believe. Because in a free society, we understand that beliefs don't always constitute rights, and I have as much right to not believe as they have to believe. It's a pretty simple thing, really, you have to allow other people the same rights you demand for yourself. Do otherwise, and you're nothing more than an intolerant bigot, and probably no better than those you're condemning.
 
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