Deity of Jesus Christ

[Freducator]

A list of what scripture verses?

 

[savagewind]

I voted that Jesus Christ is divine, but I do not believe in "the Trinity." I believe He is "God" because He shares that title with His Father. If a divine Father begat a Son, I believe that Son would have to be divine, too. But they would be separate and distinct beings who are not physically "one God," but who are "one God" in will, purpose, mind and heart.

In other words, once you realize that "God" can be used as either a singular proper noun or as a collective proper noun, then Jesus Christ can be "God" but not part of "the Trinity" (as most people who believe in "the Trinity" understand the word).

I like the clear way you explain it.

So for more than a thousand years people have been debating for or against Jesus' god like quality when neither company's precept is adequate. It is a no wonder there is not much getting done for God's Kingdom on Earth. Isn't it more productive to discuss concepts that are actually knowable? Like not what Jesus is but what he is really saying? He is the word. What does the word SAY?

He never ever said "I am God". I am sure he is never going to say it!

Can anyone tell me what is so important about knowing his real relationship with his Father?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Can anyone tell me what is so important about knowing his real relationship with his Father?

I'm just reading about it myself, but it has to do with contemplating God. It is a provided path for the contemplation of God.

 

[savagewind]

I'm just reading about it myself, but it has to do with contemplating God. It is a provided path for the contemplation of God.

OK Thank you. I have some synonyms of to contemplate.

viewing, examination, inspection, observation, survey, study, scrutiny

I think it is God WHO contemplates. Haha

 

[te_lanus]

I'm pulling you off topic, but how do you get information about Canaanite thought? Do you interpolate what they must have believed?

tHere is luckily few books around about their religion, one that I found is "Canaanite Religion According to the Liturgical Texts of Ugarit." Also a few Websites (Natib Qadish, Canaanite Polytheistic Religion & http://home.comcast.net/~chris.s/canaanite-faq.html).

Do you think they literally believed in goddesses or do you think they were more abstract about them?

I think they thought of them as real. We know that up to 8th century BC that Judaism believed that Asherah was God/YHWH/EL's wife. Only after meeting Zoarism did they go monogamous.

What about existential questions?

me unfortunately don't understand the question (since me not english as first language)

 

[Katzpur]

Can anyone tell me what is so important about knowing his real relationship with his Father?

To me, it's important primarily because of what the Trinity doctrine has done to distort it. As mortals, we are incapable of fully understanding God, but the 4th and 5th century creeds seem to be intent on making Him completely unknowable. I don't think He wants to be unknowable. I think He wants us to know Him as fully as we are capable of doing. When people try to explain the Trinity to me, it's clear they have just memorized a definition of God that makes no sense to them.

Have you seen my Trinity joke? I can post it again if you haven't.

 

[savagewind]

To me, it's important primarily because of what the Trinity doctrine has done to distort it. As mortals, we are incapable of fully understanding God, but the 4th and 5th century creeds seem to be intent on making Him completely unknowable. I don't think He wants to be unknowable. I think He wants us to know Him as fully as we are capable of doing. When people try to explain the Trinity to me, it's clear they have just memorized a definition of God that makes no sense to them.

Have you seen my Trinity joke? I can post it again if you haven't.

I would like to see the joke.

 

[defendurfaith]

John 14:8-9 KJV
[8] Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
[9] Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

 

[savagewind]

John 14:8-9 KJV
[8] Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
[9] Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Everyone knows where the Trinity doctrine came from.

People perceive the words differently. The important thing is to know what was intended in the writing of them.

What is the word SAYING? You know the words and I know the same words. "See" in those scriptures means to be aware. The only way to be knowing The Father is by the son. Jesus Christ shows us The Father. He is not The Father.

 

[defendurfaith]

Exodus 3:14 KJV
[14] And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

John 8:57-58 KJV
[57] Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
[58] Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 8:24 KJV
[24] I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he , ye shall die in your sins.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Exodus 3:14 KJV
[14] And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

John 8:57-58 KJV
[57] Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
[58] Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 8:24 KJV
[24] I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he , ye shall die in your sins.

:sarcastic

Genesis 18:27 'Then Abraham spoke up again: “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I AM nothing but dust and ashes'
----this demonstrates something, that English is not an appropriate language to discuss Exodus 3:14. If we had to rely upon the English, then I AM would mean dust and ashes.


John 8:57-58 is fairly decent and could be read as Trinitarian, but it is insufficient. The thing is, the NT was never meant to prove the trinity. It doesn't contain enough textual support for that by itself. That Jesus says "before Abraham was I am" sounds simple, but by bringing up 'Abraham' he brings up a lot of other things besides just time. Anyway it is compatible with the trinity but not a proof of it.

John 8:24 also is not a proof of trinity. It allows for a trinity but is not a proof.

 

[savagewind]

John 8:57-58 KJV
[57] Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
[58] Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Most of us here have read the Bible.

If we read it again and again and again most of us won't change our minds. OK?

And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. James 2:23

Before Abraham believed God God's son was conceived for God's purpose. In other words the man Jesus was not brought into existance by man's will, but came by God's will. No matter how humankind performed the will of God or didn't perform it the man called Jesus would have been born. It is God's purpose to show Earth YHVH. YHVH needs no friends to produce a son. Yeshua before Abraham. Not in time but for the purpose of God.

 

[defendurfaith]

Zechariah 12:10 KJV
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son , and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Revelation 1:7-8 KJV
[7] Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
[8] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Isaiah 41:4 KJV
Who hath wrought and done it , calling the generations from the beginning? I the Lord , the first, and with the last; I am he.

Revelation 1:17-18 KJV
[17] And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
[18] I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

 

[savagewind]

Revelation 1:17-18 KJV
[17] And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
[18] I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Since the Kingdom was given to the son, he IS first. The word is also used at Matthew 20:27 and it means foremost. Last means like a shepherd who drives his sheep before him. Both Jesus and The Father of Jesus are like that.

What is doesn't mean is first and last in line.

 

[savagewind]

Zechariah 12:10 KJV
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son , and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

This translation makes no sense. The pronouns are changed.

 

[savagewind]

Genesis 41:44 Pharaoh said to Joseph, "I am Pharaoh, but without your word no one will lift hand or foot in all Egypt."

When Pharaoh gave the power to Joseph who was first? Pharaoh? Yes. But from the people's perpective who was? Joseph!

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

This board is so weird. All almost all of the world's 2 billion Christians are Trinitarians but this board would have you believe that it's split down the middle.

Of course, I'm a Trinitarian. You have to be in order to be a Catholic. So, yes - Jesus is God, God the Son, God Incarnate, One in Being with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

 

[savagewind]

This board is so weird. All almost all of the world's 2 billion Christians are Trinitarians but this board would have you believe that it's split down the middle.

Of course, I'm a Trinitarian. You have to be in order to be a Catholic. So, yes - Jesus is God, God the Son, God Incarnate, One in Being with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

I believe Jesus is one in being with The Father and The Holy Spirit. He would not have come if not to obey God and he would not have performed miracles without the holy spirit.

He is the word incarnate. Is God the word? Isn't God much more than the word of God?

 

[defendurfaith]

Philippians 2:5-8 KJV
[5] Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
[6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
[8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

 

[Pegg]

Philippians 2:5-8 KJV
[5] Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
[6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
[8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

kjv is such a poor translation of the hebrew text.