Deity Worship / Idolatry?

[Gaura Priya]

At the moment, I am reading Satyarth Prakash in English by Dayanand Saraswati... and I am wondering that maybe he is right?

Could it be that the idea of worshipping the Deities in the temple be a modern invention, a modern innovation that has no place for followers of Vaidika Dharma?

"[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Both the teachers and their scholars should void all those things that act as hindrances in the way of the acquisition of knowledge, such as the company of the wicked and lascivious people, contraction of bad habits (such as the use of intoxicants), fornication, child-marriage, want of perfect Brahmacharya, want of love on the part of the rulers, parents and learned men for the dissemination of knowledge of the Veda and other Shaastraas,[/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Over eating, keeping late hours, sloth in learning, teaching, examining or being examined, or performing these duties with dishonesty, not regarding knowledge as the highest thing in the world, want of faith in Brahmacharya as the source of health, strength, intellect, courage, political power and wealth, leaving off the worship of one true God, and wasting time in going about from place to place for the purpose of seeing and worshipping images made of stone, and other inanimate objects, absence of the worship of the five true living gods - father, mother , teacher, altruistic teachers of humanity (atithis) and other great men, - neglect in the performance of the [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]duties of their Class and Order, and instead, wearing different marks of sectarian distinction on the forehead and other parts of the body. Chaplets and rosaries, etc., observance of fasting days as the 11th and 13th of each month, having faith in the forgiveness of sins by pilgrimage to such sacred places, as Benares, and by constant recitation of the names of gods and goddesses such as Rama, Krishna, Naaryaaa, Shiva, Bhawati and Ganesha, indifference towards the acquisition of knowledge through the wicked advice of hypocrites, believe in the possibilities of obtaining salvation simply through hearing such books as Puraanas and (Bhaagvat and the like) read, and thus neglecting the study of the true philosophies of and sciences, the living of good and righteous lives, the practice of Yoga, and communion with God - which alone can lead to eternal bliss - want of love for knowledge through greed of gold, and loafing about, etc. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]People (of India), at the present day, who are involved in the aforesaid false practices, remain destitute of the advantages of Brahmacharya and education, are consequently sunk in ignorance, and afflicted with diverse diseases."[/FONT]

:camp: - Agnihotra (also known as havan, or homa)

I feel conflicted. If indeed this Deity worship is truly idolatry and only agnihotra is the true Vedic way of worshipping a formless God, then I would have to abandon everything I considered dear to me!

:sad4:

That means removing my tulasi neckbeads, removing my wearing of Gaudiya tilak, removing my beloved Deities Gaur-Nitai and Radha-Krishna, giving away my japa-mala, removing the 'mythological falsities' of the Bhagavata Purana and even Bhagavad Gita, and eschewing that merciful Vaishnava Dharma.

I want to know whether the worship of Deities have always been part of Vaidika Dharma... if yes, then Sanatana Dharma is correct in its approach to God. If not, then Arya Samaj is right and the rest of Hinduism are following innovations to Scripture. Are there any instances or allowances to use Deities in the four Vedas?

 

[Arav]

Arya Samaj has never respected Idol Worship. That group has always been agaisnt it and anything that has to do with Arya Samaj will say Idol Worship is bad. I wouldnt listen to such things. Doesnt Krishna say in the Bhagavad-Gita that one should fix their minds on Krishna? Yes, and isnt that a form of idolatry? It is, and Im sure God wouldnt come down here to guide us wrong. Also, one of the prescribed ways of Worship in this age is Chanting and it says above that chanting Krishna, Rama, Shiva, etc isnt good.

What is posted in your quote is agaisnt not only what mainstream Hinduism but alot of Sages have said are correct.

 

[kaisersose]

Arya Samaj has never respected Idol Worship. That group has always been agaisnt it and anything that has to do with Arya Samaj will say Idol Worship is bad. I wouldnt listen to such things. Doesnt Krishna say in the Bhagavad-Gita that one should fix their minds on Krishna? Yes, and isnt that a form of idolatry? It is, and Im sure God wouldnt come down here to guide us wrong. Also, one of the prescribed ways of Worship in this age is Chanting and it says above that chanting Krishna, Rama, Shiva, etc isnt good.

What is posted in your quote is agaisnt not only what mainstream Hinduism but alot of Sages have said are correct.

The Bhagavad Gita is not part of the Vedas. It is part of the Mahabharata, which is from a more recent time.

The early Vedic religion of Aryans had fire worship to Indra, Agni, Vayu, Mitra and other Vedic Gods. But I suspect, indigenous Indians were already worshipping idols. These local beliefs eventually combined with Aryan beliefs to form present day Hinduism.

I believe idol worship existed in India long before the Aryans set foot in the region; before the first line of the Rig-Veda was composed.

 

[Arav]

The Bhagavad Gita is not part of the Vedas. It is part of the Mahabharata, which is from a more recent time.

The early Vedic religion of Aryans had fire worship to Indra, Agni, Vayu, Mitra and other Vedic Gods. But I suspect, indigenous Indians were already worshipping idols. These local beliefs eventually combined with Aryan beliefs to form present day Hinduism.

I believe idol worship existed in India long before the Aryans set foot in the region; before the first line of the Rig-Veda was composed.

I didnt say that Bhagavad-Gita was from the Vedas. Madanbhakta is a Gaudiya Vaishnava and I was using the Gita to present a point to him.

 

[Gaura Priya]

The Bhagavad Gita is not part of the Vedas. It is part of the Mahabharata, which is from a more recent time.

The early Vedic religion of Aryans had fire worship to Indra, Agni, Vayu, Mitra and other Vedic Gods. But I suspect, indigenous Indians were already worshipping idols. These local beliefs eventually combined with Aryan beliefs to form present day Hinduism.

I believe idol worship existed in India long before the Aryans set foot in the region; before the first line of the Rig-Veda was composed.

I actually have *big* problems with the Aryan invasion theory (a British creation and invention, no doubt, to weaken the Dharmic religion and promote this untenable superiority of the Christian religion), because Arya is not a race, but a concept, and it never has ever referred to a race; furthermore, there is not much proof to the Aryan Migration since Vedic culture has been in existence in India long before the supposed time of introduction to Vaidika Dharma. I mean, South India has got to be the most Hindu of the other places in India, with the most beautiful expression of Hindu culture.

Arya Samaj posits that all these different names found in the four Vedas: Varuna, Indra, Vishnu, etc. are actually different names and conceptions of this nameless, formless, yet Personal Being, who is God. And the only true worship to God is through sandhya (meditation) and agnihotra, performed twice a day, after sunrise and before sunset.

They reject all Puranas as mythology, and all smriti except Manu Smrti. And they do not believe in avatars, prophets, gurus, etc. (Lord Ramachandra and Krishna are mere men.) The only guidance is between you, the formless God, and the Vedas.

But my question is, are they right? is Deity worship nothing but an innovation to Vaidika Dharma? Are we all committing some superstition in believing that God can come down in a form of wood, clay, marble, stone, etc.? Is my worship of Krishna nothing but superstitious interpolated practice, and my Shaiva friend's worship of his Shivalingam a false and idolatrous practice?

I'm asking because I am seriously considering Arya Samaji doctrine... They have such strong views, and I am interested in seeing how Sanatan Dharmis can defend themselves from the claims made from this organisation...

 

[Arav]

I actually have *big* problems with the Aryan invasion theory (a British creation and invention, no doubt, to weaken the Dharmic religion and promote this untenable superiority of the Christian religion), because Arya is not a race, but a concept, and it never has ever referred to a race; furthermore, there is not much proof to the Aryan Migration since Vedic culture has been in existence in India long before the supposed time of introduction to Vaidika Dharma. I mean, South India has got to be the most Hindu of the other places in India, with the most beautiful expression of Hindu culture.

Arya Samaj posits that all these different names found in the four Vedas: Varuna, Indra, Vishnu, etc. are actually different names and conceptions of this nameless, formless, yet Personal Being, who is God. And the only true worship to God is through sandhya (meditation) and agnihotra, performed twice a day, after sunrise and before sunset.

They reject all Puranas as mythology, and all smriti except Manu Smrti. And they do not believe in avatars, prophets, gurus, etc. (Lord Ramachandra and Krishna are mere men.) The only guidance is between you, the formless God, and the Vedas.

But my question is, are they right? is Deity worship nothing but an innovation to Vaidika Dharma? Are we all committing some superstition in believing that God can come down in a form of wood, clay, marble, stone, etc.? Is my worship of Krishna nothing but superstitious interpolated practice, and my Shaiva friend's worship of his Shivalingam a false and idolatrous practice?

I'm asking because I am seriously considering Arya Samaji doctrine... They have such strong views, and I am interested in seeing how Sanatan Dharmis can defend themselves from the claims made from this organisation...

I dont mean anything offensive here, but I dont think many can help you with this decision. Its up to you to choose whether Arya Samaj or any other form of Hinduism is right. This comes down to Faith, though the Vedas dont talk about Idol worship, they were never agaisnt it. Its up to you to choose.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

At the moment, I am reading Satyarth Prakash in English by Dayanand Saraswati... and I am wondering that maybe he is right?

Arya Samaj might be a path for some but not for every one. I have a few problems with what they teach: (I am not a sage so take all that I say with a grain of salt)

-The Vedas do talk about murti in at least a few places.
The sage Devala made his living by making images. Kathaka Samhita 22.11
In the Atharva- Veda 2.2.2 it talks about a temple.
The Vedas also refer to sculptors of images like Tvasta.

- Many who are from Vedic Priest Traditions say that Arya Samaj do not engage in the Vedic Homas in a correct way.
We must remember how hard it is to do a Vedic Yajna . You cannot even use a match to light the fire. You must rub two sticks together to start the fire. One word out of place the whole Homa is a useless. It is not made for the modern man.

Dayanand Saraswati is a good man and all. I would not put him in the same category as Sri Chaitanya. You have an authentic path to God. You have nothing to worry about.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

and all smriti except Manu Smrti.

You do know that the Hindu's had no idea of what the Manu Smrti was until the English dug it up some place and made a big deal out of it. I see no reason to accept this Smrti as relevant to modern Hinduism.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

(Lord Ramachandra and Krishna are mere men.) The only guidance is between you, the formless God, and the Vedas.

This also is a path for some. The Lord Rama stayed with sages who rejected him as an Avatar. He still called them Rishis.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Arya Samaj posits that all these different names found in the four Vedas: Varuna, Indra, Vishnu, etc. are actually different names and conceptions of this nameless, formless, yet Personal Being, who is God. .

If it is wrong to believe in Gods with form then why does the Rg Veda give a such a beautiful description of their bodies. (8.29)

In the Indus valley they have found both Vedic Fire Pits and Murtis in the same town.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

@madanbhakta as you can see if a simple man like myself can cut down the arguments of the Arya Samaj. Just think what a pundit or educated Swami could do.
The problem with the Arya Samaj as I see it... not their beliefs...but judgmental attitude. We all have our own paths to the truth. Hinduism has room for us all.

 

[nameless]

The Bhagavad Gita is not part of the Vedas. It is part of the Mahabharata, which is from a more recent time.

The early Vedic religion of Aryans had fire worship to Indra, Agni, Vayu, Mitra and other Vedic Gods. But I suspect, indigenous Indians were already worshipping idols. These local beliefs eventually combined with Aryan beliefs to form present day Hinduism.

Krishna uses example of cow and milk to resemble relation between Bhagavat Gita and vedas/upanishads.

All the upanishads represent cows; Sri Krishna is the milker of the Upanishad-Cows; Partha (Arjuna) is the calf who first tasted that milk of wisdom of the self, which was milked by the Divine Cowherd, Sri Krishna, for the benefit of Arjuna and all humanity, as the Bhagavad Gita

"sarvopanisadogavah, dogdha gopala-nandanah partho vatsah sudhibhokta dughdham gitamrtam mahat. "

I believe idol worship existed in India long before the Aryans set foot in the region; before the first line of the Rig-Veda was composed.

Aryan invasion theory lacks proof and logic, so dont worry about that.

 

[kaisersose]

But my question is, are they right? is Deity worship nothing but an innovation to Vaidika Dharma? Are we all committing some superstition in believing that God can come down in a form of wood, clay, marble, stone, etc.? Is my worship of Krishna nothing but superstitious interpolated practice, and my Shaiva friend's worship of his Shivalingam a false and idolatrous practice?

I'm asking because I am seriously considering Arya Samaji doctrine... They have such strong views, and I am interested in seeing how Sanatan Dharmis can defend themselves from the claims made from this organisation...

I don't see a need for defense. Everyone knows this already. The Vaidika Dharma you are referring to, died out a long time ago, though parts of it have been merged into present day Hinduism.

The Arya Samaj wants to recreate a religion from an outdated era and that is fine. Obviously, everything that is not part of this outdate religion will be dismissed as not having any value.

 

[Madhuri]

I personally don't think that deity worship is some universal or eternal practice. It is something that humans have created in order to aid in spiritual devotion and development. It isn't something that everyone needs to do in order to advance spiritually, but for followers of Bhakti Yoga, it is extremely helpful in the development of Love for God. EXTREMELY helpful.

 

[Gaura Priya]

I personally don't think that deity worship is some universal or eternal practice. It is something that humans have created in order to aid in spiritual devotion and development. It isn't something that everyone needs to do in order to advance spiritually, but for followers of Bhakti Yoga, it is extremely helpful in the development of Love for God. EXTREMELY helpful.

I guess I have been interested in this Arya Samaj movement before I found Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta three years ago, when I was still a generic Hindu and 'organisation-shopping.'

I liked the simplicity of the Arya Samaj, and it appeared to my eyes, with their desire for equality, of making the world Arya, or noble, and having only the forms of worship as sandhya and agnihotra as worship of the Lord, as a wonderful practice of Vaidika Dharma.

Of course, reading their book is certainly an eye opener. I'm still working on it, but I am sure that if I told them that I was gay and wanted to be an Arya Samaji they would push me to the next mandir, hahaha.

But my desire was to know whether using Deities is an appropriate and Vedic way of worship as much as agnihotra would be. Otherwise, if it is not sanctioned by the Vedic Scriptures, then Deity worship would be an unnecessary innovation.

 

[Gaura Priya]

@madanbhakta as you can see if a simple man like myself can cut down the arguments of the Arya Samaj. Just think what a pundit or educated Swami could do.
The problem with the Arya Samaj as I see it... not their beliefs...but judgmental attitude. We all have our own paths to the truth. Hinduism has room for us all.

Thank you so much, Wannabe Yogi... I could metaphorically (or literally) kiss you for your knowledge and insight!! It definitely makes me feel better that what I am following is okay for now.

After reading the chapter on Government in Satyarth Prakash, which uses entirely of the Manu-Samhita, I am still amazed that he believed that this was the way of the future. I mean, an adulteress should be eaten alive by dogs in public, and an adulterer should be burned alive with hot coal in public? A person who kills someone's limbs should have his limbs cut off? And yet Satyarth Prakash is considered the 'Bible' of the Arya Samaj.

Manu-Smrti sounds like a very outdated, antiquidated book that has no place in modern times... :no:

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Manu-Smrti sounds like a very outdated, antiquidated book that has no place in modern times... :no:

I agree.

 

[kaisersose]

Manu-Smrti sounds like a very outdated, antiquidated book that has no place in modern times... :no:

I doubt it had a place in any society. Thankfully, common sense seems to have prevailed. There is no shortage of such Smritis. There was one which advocated pouring molten lead into the ears of a Shudra who heard the Veda.

 

[nameless]

There is no shortage of such Smritis.

pls let me know other such smritis like manusmriti?

 

[Madhuri]

But my desire was to know whether using Deities is an appropriate and Vedic way of worship as much as agnihotra would be. Otherwise, if it is not sanctioned by the Vedic Scriptures, then Deity worship would be an unnecessary innovation.

It is neither necessary nor unnecessary
It is a devotional practice that suits certain people.