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Democracy: Eroding and Maintaining

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

joe1776

Well-Known Member
Some of today’s politicians have learned propaganda tricks from 1930s fascists, says Yale professor

^^^^^^

I just came across this interview, which deals with democracy, fascism and propaganda in a particularly insightful manner.

see what you make of it (10 minutes, but worth it)
I agree with his premise that the rhetoric of the fascists of the 1930s has made a resurgence in the world, but I don't see it as a threat because we humans aren't as naive today as the people of the 1930s.

However, this Yale professor's belief in "democracy and the rule of law" is nonsense in my opinion. If one associates the word 'democracy" with a government for the people, then democracy is a good thing. But, if democracy means that the people elect their politicians, then democracy is a lousy way to select decision-makers.

As for the "rule of law," it's absurd to think that legislators, mostly men long dead, were more capable of the intelligence and moral character to deal with the problems of our modern world than we are.
 

Secret Chief

Very strong language
we humans aren't as naive today as the people of the 1930s.

In what ways do you see this? Is fascism no longer a possibility?

If one associates the word 'democracy" with a government for the people, then democracy is a good thing. But, if democracy means that the people elect their politicians, then democracy is a lousy way to select decision-makers.

I don't think one can equate "democracy" with "government for the people" but it is certainly capable of producing lousy leaders. But what to do? Another system? Tweak what we have?

As for the "rule of law," it's absurd to think that legislators, mostly men long dead, were more capable of the intelligence and moral character to deal with the problems of our modern world than we are.

Laws are always being brought in, changed, scrapped...so I'm not sure what you mean?
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
In what ways do you see this? Is fascism no longer a possibility?
I don't think it's possible in a society with a fairly intelligent citizenry.

Laws are always being brought in, changed, scrapped...so I'm not sure what you mean?

I assume that the Yale professor meant by "rule of law" that decisions in the USA should be made in courtrooms with the Constitution as the basis.

I don't think one can equate "democracy" with "government for the people" but it is certainly capable of producing lousy leaders. But what to do? Another system? Tweak what we have?

I authored a thread that will answer your question.

The Future of International Expert Advisory Panels
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Some of today’s politicians have learned propaganda tricks from 1930s fascists, says Yale professor

^^^^^^

I just came across this interview, which deals with democracy, fascism and propaganda in a particularly insightful manner.

see what you make of it (10 minutes, but worth it)

I don't think that propaganda tricks will necessarily always have the same result; a lot of it is dependent upon context, time, and place.

It seems to me that the most effective way to prevent fascism (or communism, for that matter) is for the ruling faction(s) to do whatever is necessary to refrain from creating conditions which lead to widespread suffering and deprivation.

For example, whichever rocket scientist in the Weimar government decided that it would be a wonderful idea to start charging people a billion marks for a loaf of bread - that person did more to enable fascism in Germany than a thousand propagandists could have done.

When people are made to languish and suffer like that, then it isn't that difficult to figure out that eventually they'll become angry and resentful, making them more susceptible to politicians who echo that anger and resentment.

Smart politicians will find ways of addressing the grievances of the masses while reducing the power of the radicals and taking the wind out of their sails. That's what we did in the U.S. with FDR, who made far-reaching permanent reforms without turning the whole country upside-down. That same trend continued through the 50s and 60s, leading to the reformed liberal democratic system which many people see as one of America's greatest virtues.

It didn't necessarily prevent a lot of "fascistic" things from happening in the US, such as with McCarthy, Hoover, Nixon, and the "national security state" which came about due to the Cold War. But the checks and balances worked slowly but surely to quash or ameliorate some of the more egregious elements.

Unfortunately, I think that politicians have forgotten about this in recent decades. They think that it's all about "propaganda" and nothing else. That kind of propaganda doesn't work if the people are happy. It only works when things are allowed to fester and deteriorate, where the cries of the suffering and disadvantaged are routinely ignored or cavalierly dismissed.

I don't think we've really gotten to that point here in America, at least not yet. We could be headed in that direction, but I think we should heed the warning signs just the same.

However, I think it's erroneous to believe that just addressing or eliminating the "propaganda" will somehow prevent fascism or some other extremist-driven upheaval. The needs of the people will still need to be addressed, one way or the other.

One point the professor raised was the idea of "powerlessness," and how the masses are often made to feel that way. That's also another pervasive feeling throughout society, and that can also have some consequences. Hitler didn't tell the German people that they were powerless. Quite the contrary, his message was just the opposite, and that's what resonated with the masses. He told the Germans that they were powerful, they were special, nature's chosen rulers. When people feel powerless and destitute, someone coming along and saying "you are powerful" can be quite alluring and seductive.

Another thing that can weaken a democracy (which the U.S. may be suffering long-term damage) can also come from the strange bedfellows we've had on the international scene. We allied ourselves with regimes which were clearly not practitioners of freedom and democracy, yet they somehow managed to serve our interests just the same.

That reveals the uglier but not so secret flaw about our economic and political system. We practice "freedom" and "democracy" on our own soil (more or less), but we have proxies and puppets around the world to do our dirty work. Our national wealth and comfort is the result of sticking it to somebody, but if we can keep it off our own soil, then we can say we're clean.

That's been a significant weakness in our structure that has taken a toll on the national consciousness and political culture. It's often referred to as "imperialism" and some say it's a consequence of American exceptionalism, which might share some overlap with fascism - but also with significant differences.

We still have some semblance of checks and balances; we haven't gotten to the point where most people accept the notion of Führerprinzip or swearing an oath directly to an individual (as opposed to the Constitution).

What we should watch for is when things go out of balance and realize that whatever imbalances exist in the government today might be a consequence of giving the government far more power than they're ever been held responsible for. The apparatus has been in place for a long time, but the problem has been certain level of inertia and complacency about things in general. There's also a great deal of apathy and selfishness. Society doesn't matter, the world doesn't matter, nothing else matters, it's all about "me, me, me."

Democracy is supposed to be a cooperative process, where citizens should be able to get together and discuss their shared needs and wants, while amicably discussing their disagreements and differences of opinion. I realize it's not that simple, and it's certainly not at all very amicable. But still, it requires the people as a whole to put a bit more effort into it.
 
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Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I agree with his premise that the rhetoric of the fascists of the 1930s has made a resurgence in the world, but I don't see it as a threat because we humans aren't as naive today as the people of the 1930s.
Go ahead and keep believing that.
1920s Germany weren't much different than we are before the rise of the Nazis
.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
Go ahead and keep believing that.
1920s Germany weren't much different than we are before the rise of the Nazis
.
Do you not learn from your experience? If you do, do you think you're a rare exception? Why is it difficult for you to believe that humanity is learning from its experience?

Yes, it's gradual and hard to see in a lifetime, but if you look at the distant past and compare it to the present day, you will see social progress.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Do you not learn from your experience? If you do, do you think you're a rare exception? Why is it difficult for you to believe that humanity is learning from its experience?

Yes, it's gradual and hard to see in a lifetime, but if you look at the distant past and compare it to the present day, you will see social progress.
Because humans overall suck at learning, they struggle at being rational, they arent very good at being logical, and learning from experience can't be assumed. Such as the amount of neo-Nazis qnd neo-Fascists we have, widespread white supremacy, and around the globe people are voting for tyranny, selfishness, despicable characters, characters who are authoritarian leaning.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
Because humans overall suck at learning, they struggle at being rational, they arent very good at being logical, and learning from experience can't be assumed. Such as the amount of neo-Nazis qnd neo-Fascists we have, widespread white supremacy, and around the globe people are voting for tyranny, selfishness, despicable characters, characters who are authoritarian leaning.
Some humans suck at learning. Some humans are racists. Who cares? When our topic concerns the entire population of large nations, we aren't concerned with the exceptionally good or exceptionally bad.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Democracy is supposed to be a cooperative process, where citizens should be able to get together and discuss their shared needs and wants, while amicably discussing their disagreements and differences of opinion. I realize it's not that simple, and it's certainly not at all very amicable. But still, it requires the people as a whole to put a bit more effort into it.
There is effectively no democracy in the U.S., anymore. The wealthy elites control both parties completely, allow no other parties to pose any real challenge, and present this all to the people as a phony pretense of democracy, in which we choose from this toady for the wealthy elite, or that toady for the wealthy elite. And either way, the wealthy elite get whatever they want (always wealthier and more powerful), while everyone else pays for it in freedom, opportunity, and security.

It's gotten so bad, now, that we can't even consider our election process to be 'democratic', anymore, as the corruption in that arena has become epidemic as well. We have irretrievably lost control of our own government and we're too confused, frightened, or biased to own up to it.
 

Tambourine

Well-Known Member
I don't think it's possible in a society with a fairly intelligent citizenry.
Do you actually believe that Germans in 1930s succumbed to National Socialism because they were just stupider than modern day Americans? I personally find that very hard to believe.

I assume that the Yale professor meant by "rule of law" that decisions in the USA should be made in courtrooms with the Constitution as the basis.
"Rule of Law" generally means that both elected and unelected government officials should be subject to the same laws and the same legal scrutiny as ordinary citizens.
Rule of law - Wikipedia
(By contrast, the sitting US President claims that whatever he does is legal, simply because he is the President)


Do you not learn from your experience? If you do, do you think you're a rare exception? Why is it difficult for you to believe that humanity is learning from its experience?
There are people who think that the Earth is flat and the curvature of the horizon, which is plain to see for literally everyone, is simply a trick of other people's imagination.

It seems plain to me that people's ability to learn and experience new things is highly selective.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Some humans suck at learning. Some humans are racists. Who cares? When our topic concerns the entire population of large nations, we aren't concerned with the exceptionally good or exceptionally bad.
People as a whole are not very logical or rational. We really suck at recalling memories, we only take in a very small amount of information, we are prone to bias, and the average person is not wored to think logically by default.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
Do you actually believe that Germans in 1930s succumbed to National Socialism because they were just stupider than modern day Americans? I personally find that very hard to believe.
I believe all humans were more naive in the 1930s than they are today because we humans do learn from experience.

There are people who think that the Earth is flat and the curvature of the horizon, which is plain to see for literally everyone, is simply a trick of other people's imagination...It seems plain to me that people's ability to learn and experience new things is highly selective.
Well, yes, but your point is not relevant to my statement that humanity is learning from experience.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
People as a whole are not very logical or rational. We really suck at recalling memories, we only take in a very small amount of information, we are prone to bias, and the average person is not wored to think logically by default.
Does your statement in any way counter my statement that we humans learn from experience? If you think it does, explain it to me.
 

Secret Chief

Very strong language
Can you support this claim? I've never heard it before.
I can, but I'm not sure how useful it is! - unless you are up for a good read:
The two volume biography (Hubris and Nemesis) of Hitler by Prof Ian Kershaw. The first volume commences in 1889.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
For those that don't have time to listen. I especially noted this:

"Always find simple slogans and repeat them over and over again... to divide your listeners into us and them."

"Politics is fundamentally about friends and enemies...is a basic fascist idea."

"Today's... are passive aggressive... Ascribe agency to other people" "claim that everything they're doing is just a reaction to what the other side is doing"

"saying goodby to law"

"Authoritarianism today depends precisely on citizens thinking they can't do anything."

And I'm going to donate a few bucks to those fighting against the modern fascists.
 
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