Democracy: Eroding and Maintaining

[SomeRandom]

You're offering the "concerns" of others who think like you as evidence that I'm wrong?

No I’m saying we should keep up vigilance because history can repeat itself

 

[Secret Chief]

You're re framing the discussion. I'm not arguing that fascism isn't a current topic of discussion.

But you seem to believe people are no longer naive, that we have progressed to the point that fascism is a thing of the past, because "we" as a species have learnt it is a bad thing? If this is not what you are saying I apologise. But if you are essentially saying that, then we fundamentally disagree. All of human history and the news from around the globe currently shows that the ideas of the far right retain significant popularity in some quarters and is an ever-constant threat. I wish that you were correct, but sadly that is not what I see.

 

[Lyndon]

I come across people with basically fascist arguments all the time, fascism is a severe and growing problem

 

[Heyo]

Countries are more than capable of "reliving the 30s." The far right is gaining ground in various countries.

Nope. People do learn from mistakes. Something like the 30s in Italy, Spain, Japan and Germany won't happen again in the same way.
But the fascists also have learned from their mistakes. They won't try it the same way as in the 30s. They'll keep what works and they'll modify what doesn't.
Inheritance with variation.

We shall have to agree to disagree on this. People haven't fundamentally changed imo. We must view very different worlds.

(Emphasis mine)
That's the point of contention. We have changed, we have learned, but so did our opponents. We are still human but we are not the exact same as 90 years ago.

 

[Secret Chief]

Nope. People do learn from mistakes. Something like the 30s in Italy, Spain, Japan and Germany won't happen again in the same way.
But the fascists also have learned from their mistakes. They won't try it the same way as in the 30s. They'll keep what works and they'll modify what doesn't.
Inheritance with variation.

(Emphasis mine)
That's the point of contention. We have changed, we have learned, but so did our opponents. We are still human but we are not the exact same as 90 years ago.

As the prof in the i/v says, history doesn't repeat itself but the psychology and ideology remains the same at root. I think we probably agree.

 

[joe1776]

No I’m saying we should keep up vigilance because history can repeat itself

People have made the same mistakes in our history. But it becomes less likely with time because they do learn from them.

The younger generations seem to be more skeptical than their parents were. The same skepticism that has them rejecting the religious faith of their parents shields them from being manipulated by the simplistic propaganda of authoritarian power seekers.

 

[Stevicus]

But you seem to believe people are no longer naive, that we have progressed to the point that fascism is a thing of the past, because "we" as a species have learnt it is a bad thing? If this is not what you are saying I apologise. But if you are essentially saying that, then we fundamentally disagree. All of human history and the news from around the globe currently shows that the ideas of the far right retain significant popularity in some quarters and is an ever-constant threat. I wish that you were correct, but sadly that is not what I see.

I think we should have learned some things by now, particularly the reasons why fascist or nationalist regimes arose in the first place. If we can understand why things happen, we're one step closer to being able to prevent it.

The ideology of nationalism itself has never really been quashed, and in some cases, even the left has supported the ideology of nationalism, such as supporting various national liberation movements which sprung up around the world in opposition to colonialism and imperialism.

It was similar in Eastern Europe after the fall of the Soviet Union, as they were nations which were oppressed by a foreign power, which encouraged people to assert their independence and sovereignty based on their national identity. Likewise, within the U.S. and other Western nations, oppressed minorities have also banded together and formed their own group identities mostly based on race or nationality - and this has become part and parcel of what we now call "identity politics."

Some might see this as a more defensive form of nationalism, which is more justifiable and righteous, since it's in the name of opposing and stopping the oppression and other abuses of power. But the core ideology is still there and still ostensibly supported by the mainstream when it's politically expedient and convenient. As long as that continues, then I think it will be far more difficult to resolve the problem at hand.

 

[SomeRandom]

People have made the same mistakes in our history. But it becomes less likely with time because they do learn from them.

The younger generations seem to be more skeptical than their parents were. The same skepticism that has them rejecting the religious faith of their parents shields them from being manipulated by the simplistic propaganda of authoritarian power seekers.

Whilst this is true. That doesn’t mean propaganda is no longer effective. It’s merely changed tactics and adapted to the new generation’s way of thinking and communicating. There are now books detailing how extremist propaganda is radicalising a portion of today’s youth and how it’s the most potent we’ve seen so far.
Mostly about what America refers to as “Alt right.”

 

[joe1776]

Whilst this is true. That doesn’t mean propaganda is no longer effective. It’s merely changed tactics and adapted to the new generation’s way of thinking and communicating. There are now books detailing how extremist propaganda is radicalising a portion of today’s youth and how it’s the most potent we’ve seen so far.
Mostly about what America refers to as “Alt right.”

Your concept of propaganda must be far more sophisticated than mine. I think of a poster of Adolf Hitler's white Superman wrapped in the German flag and a three or four word slogan proclaiming Germany's greatness -- arrogance disguised as nationalism.

White supremacists have been part of the American scene since the close of our Civil War in 1865. Donald Trump's racism and his "Make America Great Again" slogan wrapped his white Superman in the American flag and encouraged those groups to come out of the shadows.

Sure, they'll recruit some young people with a need to feel superior to others but they will come to their senses in time. The movement doesn't have growth potential.

The only real enemies we Americans have to worry about are our oligarchs because they have the money and, in our system, money is political power.

 

[SomeRandom]

Your concept of propaganda must be far more sophisticated than mine. I think of a poster of Adolf Hitler's white Superman wrapped in the German flag and a three or four word slogan proclaiming Germany's greatness -- arrogance disguised as nationalism.

White supremacists have been part of the American scene since the close of our Civil War in 1865. Donald Trump's racism and his "Make America Great Again" slogan wrapped his white Superman in the American flag and encouraged those groups to come out of the shadows.

Sure, they'll recruit some young people with a need to feel superior to others but they will come to their senses in time. The movement doesn't have growth potential.

The only real enemies we Americans have to worry about are our oligarchs because they have the money and, in our system, money is political power.

Perhaps. To me propaganda involves many different “games” being played.
Although what you describe in Trump’s superman flag is colloquially referred to as a “dog whistle” so perhaps it’s merely different terminology.
I agree with you (except I’m not American.)
And you’re right, I do see a number of young people “grow out of it” so to speak.
I accidentally stumbled into Alt right spaces without really realising its toxic implications. Grew up and ironically became far more of a leftist than before.