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"Democracy for the rich"

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
Lenin: The State and Revolution


The State and Revolution

V. I. Lenin (1917)
In capitalist society, under the conditions most favorable to its development, we have more or less complete democracy in the democratic republic. But this democracy is always bound by the narrow framework of capitalist exploitation and consequently always remains, in reality, a democracy for the minority, only for the possessing classes, only for the rich.

Freedom in capitalist society always remains just about the same as it was in the ancient Greek republics: freedom for the slave-owners. The modern wage slaves, owing to the conditions of capitalist exploitation, are so much crushed by want and poverty that "democracy is nothing to them," "politics is nothing to them"; that, in the ordinary peaceful course of events, the majority of the population is debarred from participating in social and political life...

Democracy for an insignificant minority, democracy for the rich - that is the democracy of capitalist society.


Now, let me make something crystal clear. I regard Lenin as a demagogic rascal, motivated by a cult of materialist-teleological-utopian violence, who committed a slew of unforgivable atrocities against the very peasants he claimed to be fighting for against the Tsarist, and then liberal, Russian state. He was the midwife of totalitarian Stalinism and its mass murder of millions of defenceless people, not to mention its ethnocide and forced relocation of minority nationalities, as well as the gulag terror system that decimated so many lives from Lithuania to Kazakhstan. I'm also a Christian, so his savage persecution of the Orthodox Church and other religions in the Soviet Union earns my added scorn.

He thus rates very poorly in my categorisation of influential historical personages, given that his legacy has been almost entirely negative (in my estimation).

So, needless to say, I don't take what I'm about to say lightly or with the remotest hint of relish....but I think Lenin had a point. :eek: Due to his crimes, this is difficult to say. But I can't deny it. The man had a point. His solution was terrible but his analysis of the sickness wasn't very far off the mark and is now rather prescient, like that of his ideological forbear Karl Marx.

21st century democracy has increasingly proven inept at restraining corporate power and monopoly. Between 1980 and 2016, the top 1% acquired 28% of the aggregate increase in real incomes in Westernized democracies. The wage disparity between the average chief executive and and the average employee rose tenfold from 1970 to circa. 400. Multinational companies hoard wealth and influence governments around they world, harvesting personal data on private citizens and manipulating social media to further a corporatist agenda. They circumvent the legislation of national, elected legislatures by means of investor-state arbitration. They harm and degradation the environment. They evade tax.

In case someone says, "but wait, we've been here before - the gilded age in the 19th century! Laissez-faire Victorian Britain!", I would like to note that modern inequality is wedded to a shocking drop in social mobility not experienced even by in the 1800s, if measured by its sheer difference in scale. The U.S., which once boasted the most socially mobile lower middle class, is now the hardest Western society in which to climb the social ladder according to statistics. "If you want to be smart and highly energetic, the most important single step you could take is to choose the right parents," said Robert Frank. He's right, unfortunately.

If we don't do something major, I fear that we are on a downward trajectory brought about by ignorance of what it took to bring about the Western European "idea" in the first place, lack of feeling for society's losers and those left-behind by the rapacious onslaught of financial globalization (even though I support both it and free trade in principle), and crass complacency about our system's durability despite the solemn warning-shot of the 2009 banking crisis and the credit crunch.

The consequence of this generational - and I would add suicidal - misjudgement, is authoritarian populism and it's ever-rising appeal to young, socially dislocated men in particular. Jordan Peterson will be the first of many ideologues targeting impressionable young minds.

If we witness a whole generation of radicalised young men drawn to authoritarian nationalism (as we seem to be), their movement is our monster. Our system has created this distrust of "elites" (however nebulously defined). I would say that our liberal democratic system is as guilty as that of the aristocratic and mercantile one that preceded it, the policies of which - land enclosure and appropriation - fanned thievery and brigandage in sixteenth century England.

Are we really so far from the unequal, slave-holding, elitist democracy of classical Athens as we commonly assume? Lenin thought we weren't and with reluctance I'm starting to believe him. An extended franchise is not enough to provide real and effective equality.

Discuss.
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I tend to agree, but only to a limited extent. I don't believe capitalism is intrinsically bad, but I do believe laissez-fair ["unbridled"] capitalism is because it doesn't provide a safety net, plus it can lead to all too much wealth going to the top while the bottom is stuck with leftovers.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
I tend to agree, but only to a limited extent.

Nor do I, actually (up to a point, although I strongly desire certain reforms that could be incrementally implemented with some courage to the liberal capitalist consensus, on the part of political actors, which would put me squarely to the left of centre).

I am in favour of the globalization of free trade and market economy, as I noted in the OP. I'm not a Communist.

However, it is my sincere contention that we are not handling it effectively and especially that we lack supranational bodies accountable to electorates, that are specifically designed to redistribute wealth and rein in the excesses of global capitalism.

We are hampered by our nation-states and narrow cultural identities, whereas the multinational corporations and the 1% of globe-hopping mega-billionaires are not.

Should the elected representatives in one country try to protect their natural resources or workers rights, the conglomerates can simply move their base of operations to a more hospitable place where crony capitalism is king - like the autocratic city-state of Singapore. And they have used their capital, both financially through bribes and socially through special interest lobbies, to create ingenious means at the international level - namely, but not limited to, investor-state arbitration - to override national legislation that seeks to protect the vulnerable from their policies.

If we are to regulate them, properly, then we need to match their international footprint. But we don't and aren't.

Ironically, the attraction of the dispossessed to authoritarian nationalism and autarky will only increase their misery yet further, because most nation-states are not up to the task. And the libertarian billionaires know it as well.
 
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BSM1

What? Me worry?
Lenin: The State and Revolution


The State and Revolution

V. I. Lenin (1917)
In capitalist society, under the conditions most favorable to its development, we have more or less complete democracy in the democratic republic. But this democracy is always bound by the narrow framework of capitalist exploitation and consequently always remains, in reality, a democracy for the minority, only for the possessing classes, only for the rich.

Freedom in capitalist society always remains just about the same as it was in the ancient Greek republics: freedom for the slave-owners. The modern wage slaves, owing to the conditions of capitalist exploitation, are so much crushed by want and poverty that "democracy is nothing to them," "politics is nothing to them"; that, in the ordinary peaceful course of events, the majority of the population is debarred from participating in social and political life...

Democracy for an insignificant minority, democracy for the rich - that is the democracy of capitalist society.


Now, let me make something crystal clear. I regard Lenin as a demagogic rascal, motivated by a cult of materialist-teleological-utopian violence, who committed a slew of unforgivable atrocities against the very peasants he claimed to be fighting for against the Tsarist, and then liberal, Russian state. He was the midwife of totalitarian Stalinism and its mass murder of millions of defenceless people, not to mention its ethnocide and forced relocation of minority nationalities, as well as the gulag terror system that decimated so many lives from Lithuania to Kazakhstan. I'm also a Christian, so his savage persecution of the Orthodox Church and other religions in the Soviet Union earns my added scorn.

He thus rates very poorly in my categorisation of influential historical personages, given that his legacy has been almost entirely negative (in my estimation).

So, needless to say, I don't take what I'm about to say lightly or with the remotest hint of relish....but I think Lenin had a point. :eek: Due to his crimes, this is difficult to say. But I can't deny it. The man had a point. His solution was terrible but his analysis of the sickness wasn't very far off the mark and is now rather prescient, like that of his ideological forbear Karl Marx.

21st century democracy has increasingly proven inept at restraining corporate power and monopoly. Between 1980 and 2016, the top 1% acquired 28% of the aggregate increase in real incomes in Westernized democracies. The wage disparity between the average chief executive and and the average employee rose tenfold from 1970 to circa. 400. Multinational companies hoard wealth and influence governments around they world, harvesting personal data on private citizens and manipulating social media to further a corporatist agenda. They circumvent the legislation of national, elected legislatures by means of investor-state arbitration. They harm and degradation the environment. They evade tax.

In case someone says, "but wait, we've been here before - the gilded age in the 19th century! Laissez-faire Victorian Britain!", I would like to note that modern inequality is wedded to a shocking drop in social mobility not experienced even by in the 1800s, if measured by its sheer difference in scale. The U.S., which once boasted the most socially mobile lower middle class, is now the hardest Western society in which to climb the social ladder according to statistics. "If you want to be smart and highly energetic, the most important single step you could take is to choose the right parents," said Robert Frank. He's right, unfortunately.

If we don't do something major, I fear that we are on a downward trajectory brought about by ignorance of what it took to bring about the Western European "idea" in the first place, lack of feeling for society's losers and those left-behind by the rapacious onslaught of financial globalization (even though I support both it and free trade in principle), and crass complacency about our system's durability despite the solemn warning-shot of the 2009 banking crisis and the credit crunch.

The consequence of this generational - and I would add suicidal - misjudgement, is authoritarian populism and it's ever-rising appeal to young, socially dislocated men in particular. Jordan Peterson will be the first of many ideologues targeting impressionable young minds.

If we witness a whole generation of radicalised young men drawn to authoritarian nationalism (as we seem to be), their movement is our monster. Our system has created this distrust of "elites" (however nebulously defined). I would say that our liberal democratic system is as guilty as that of the aristocratic and mercantile one that preceded it, the policies of which - land enclosure and appropriation - fanned thievery and brigandage in sixteenth century England.

Are we really so far from the unequal, slave-holding, elitist democracy of classical Athens as we commonly assume? Lenin thought we weren't and with reluctance I'm starting to believe him. An extended franchise is not enough to provide real and effective equality.

Discuss.


No offense, but I believe you're gilding the lily a bit. If you look at any modern communistic or socialistic country you'll see the exact conditions you talk about in bucket fulls. To be brief, the top echelon of rulers in these countries enjoy the most privileges, the workers are complete slaves in that they have little or no choice in deciding their fates, and if you want to talk about taxes, these workers are taxed 100% of their production (it all goes back to the state). You can be as envious of the rich as you want, but a capitalistic society is the only societal model where you have a chance of being or doing what you wish. Will everyone make it?, Of course not, but no one can deny you the freedom of at least trying.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
No offense, but I believe you're gilding the lily a bit. If you look at any modern communistic or socialistic country you'll see the exact conditions you talk about in bucket fulls.

Which is precisely why I am not touting Venezuelan-style totalitarian socialism as the answer.

The ineptitude and criminality of totalitarian socialist economics does not vindicate the growing inequities of modern liberal capitalism.

In my humble opinion, it's a lazy, back-handed evasion of the issue.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Lenin: The State and Revolution


The State and Revolution

V. I. Lenin (1917)
In capitalist society, under the conditions most favorable to its development, we have more or less complete democracy in the democratic republic. But this democracy is always bound by the narrow framework of capitalist exploitation and consequently always remains, in reality, a democracy for the minority, only for the possessing classes, only for the rich.

Freedom in capitalist society always remains just about the same as it was in the ancient Greek republics: freedom for the slave-owners. The modern wage slaves, owing to the conditions of capitalist exploitation, are so much crushed by want and poverty that "democracy is nothing to them," "politics is nothing to them"; that, in the ordinary peaceful course of events, the majority of the population is debarred from participating in social and political life...

Democracy for an insignificant minority, democracy for the rich - that is the democracy of capitalist society.


Now, let me make something crystal clear. I regard Lenin as a demagogic rascal, motivated by a cult of materialist-teleological-utopian violence, who committed a slew of unforgivable atrocities against the very peasants he claimed to be fighting for against the Tsarist, and then liberal, Russian state. He was the midwife of totalitarian Stalinism and its mass murder of millions of defenceless people, not to mention its ethnocide and forced relocation of minority nationalities, as well as the gulag terror system that decimated so many lives from Lithuania to Kazakhstan. I'm also a Christian, so his savage persecution of the Orthodox Church and other religions in the Soviet Union earns my added scorn.

He thus rates very poorly in my categorisation of influential historical personages, given that his legacy has been almost entirely negative (in my estimation).

So, needless to say, I don't take what I'm about to say lightly or with the remotest hint of relish....but I think Lenin had a point. :eek: Due to his crimes, this is difficult to say. But I can't deny it. The man had a point. His solution was terrible but his analysis of the sickness wasn't very far off the mark and is now rather prescient, like that of his ideological forbear Karl Marx.

21st century democracy has increasingly proven inept at restraining corporate power and monopoly. Between 1980 and 2016, the top 1% acquired 28% of the aggregate increase in real incomes in Westernized democracies. The wage disparity between the average chief executive and and the average employee rose tenfold from 1970 to circa. 400. Multinational companies hoard wealth and influence governments around they world, harvesting personal data on private citizens and manipulating social media to further a corporatist agenda. They circumvent the legislation of national, elected legislatures by means of investor-state arbitration. They harm and degradation the environment. They evade tax.

In case someone says, "but wait, we've been here before - the gilded age in the 19th century! Laissez-faire Victorian Britain!", I would like to note that modern inequality is wedded to a shocking drop in social mobility not experienced even by in the 1800s, if measured by its sheer difference in scale. The U.S., which once boasted the most socially mobile lower middle class, is now the hardest Western society in which to climb the social ladder according to statistics. "If you want to be smart and highly energetic, the most important single step you could take is to choose the right parents," said Robert Frank. He's right, unfortunately.

If we don't do something major, I fear that we are on a downward trajectory brought about by ignorance of what it took to bring about the Western European "idea" in the first place, lack of feeling for society's losers and those left-behind by the rapacious onslaught of financial globalization (even though I support both it and free trade in principle), and crass complacency about our system's durability despite the solemn warning-shot of the 2009 banking crisis and the credit crunch.

The consequence of this generational - and I would add suicidal - misjudgement, is authoritarian populism and it's ever-rising appeal to young, socially dislocated men in particular. Jordan Peterson will be the first of many ideologues targeting impressionable young minds.

If we witness a whole generation of radicalised young men drawn to authoritarian nationalism (as we seem to be), their movement is our monster. Our system has created this distrust of "elites" (however nebulously defined). I would say that our liberal democratic system is as guilty as that of the aristocratic and mercantile one that preceded it, the policies of which - land enclosure and appropriation - fanned thievery and brigandage in sixteenth century England.

Are we really so far from the unequal, slave-holding, elitist democracy of classical Athens as we commonly assume? Lenin thought we weren't and with reluctance I'm starting to believe him. An extended franchise is not enough to provide real and effective equality.

Discuss.


Lenin did have a point. If I may be pardoned for a cut
n paste from an Amazon book review-

The reigning consensus holds that the combination of free markets and democracy would transform the third world and sweep away the ethnic hatred and religious zealotry associated with underdevelopment. In this revelatory investigation of the true impact of globalization, Yale Law School professor Amy Chua explains why many developing countries are in fact consumed by ethnic violence after adopting free market democracy.

Chua shows how in non-Western countries around the globe, free markets have concentrated starkly disproportionate wealth in the hands of a resented ethnic minority. These “market-dominant minorities” – Chinese in Southeast Asia, Croatians in the former Yugoslavia, whites in Latin America and South Africa, Indians in East Africa, Lebanese in West Africa, Jews in post-communist Russia – become objects of violent hatred. At the same time, democracy empowers the impoverished majority, unleashing ethnic demagoguery, confiscation, and sometimes genocidal revenge. She also argues that the United States has become the world’s most visible market-dominant minority, a fact that helps explain the rising tide of anti-Americanism around the world. Chua is a friend of globalization, but she urges us to find ways to spread its benefits and curb its most destructive aspects
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
Which is precisely why I am not touting Venezuelan-style totalitarian socialism as the answer.

The ineptitude and criminality of totalitarian socialist economics does not vindicate the growing inequities of modern liberal capitalism.

In my humble opinion, it's a lazy, back-handed evasion of the issue.

My bad...
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The consequence of this generational - and I would add suicidal - misjudgement, is authoritarian populism and it's ever-rising appeal to young, socially dislocated men in particular. Jordan Peterson will be the first of many ideologues targeting impressionable young minds.

If we witness a whole generation of radicalised young men drawn to authoritarian nationalism (as we seem to be), their movement is our monster. Our system has created this distrust of "elites" (however nebulously defined). I would say that our liberal democratic system is as guilty as that of the aristocratic and mercantile one that preceded it, the policies of which - land enclosure and appropriation - fanned thievery and brigandage in sixteenth century England.

Are we really so far from the unequal, slave-holding, elitist democracy of classical Athens as we commonly assume? Lenin thought we weren't and with reluctance I'm starting to believe him. An extended franchise is not enough to provide real and effective equality.

Discuss.

Yeah, the rich have more influence than anyone else, but who is keeping you from being rich in this system? :D Anyone motivated enough to do so in this system has more opportunity than in any other to achieve that. People throw a lot of blame on the rich for their problems, when they should be blaming themselves. They're not rich because of poor thought patterns, career development, or simple laziness -- not because anyone got in their way. Certainly, that being said there are always the anomalies like Buffet, Soros, Gates, or Bezos -- but, those people are more like lottery winners in frequency than something people can directly achieve in most cases, luck certainly helps. But, that being said, anyone and I mean anyone could make 100k a year easy and someone who sweats a bit can make 200k just on career selection. So, no one is keeping you from "extremely good pay" or "influence" except yourself. It's around 300k where you need to start getting lucky in this country, to do better, and most people would agree that 300k+ is basically rich. (You can have everything you'd ever want at that income level, more is just frosting.) But, I did say sweat -- most people in this country aren't that motivated by money, so is why does everyone care what is in someone else's wallet? Make what you feel like making but certainly don't try to delude yourself into believing this is a class thing -- the only class you have is the one you pick.

Eh, ideologue Jordan Peterson really isn't, but honestly he's just a pretty conservative dude who publishes self-help crap. (Most annoying category for me to personally read, lol.) Anyway, his basic premises are available in many other, better books. Though, I still find him an interesting character...

Nationalism isn't worthless, it's good to be proud enough of your country that you don't let it fall apart. After all, that unity is basically the only thing that a country fundamentally is. Most of the people belly-aching about nationalism are the people who think there can be no borders because of X. Yeah, they're nuts, basically. The only reason you have anything is there are borders and they keep other nations and their people from taking it from you. As for authoritarianism, that's just taking a ghost -- who has made anyone do anything the USA? Also, chasing populism is equally silly -- there is always populism, it's a feature of human nature. There is no culture where populism isn't the predominate influence regardless of the organization of government or private spaces. China is populist, the USA is populist, hell I can't think of a single place that is not. Most countries serve the needs of their people -- and, those needs are largely what is popular with the masses.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Yeah, the rich have more influence than anyone else, but who is keeping you from being rich in this system? :D Anyone motivated enough to do so in this system has more opportunity than in any other to achieve that. People throw a lot of blame on the rich for their problems, when they should be blaming themselves. They're not rich because of poor thought patterns, career development, or simple laziness -- not because anyone got in their way. Certainly, that being said there are always the anomalies like Buffet, Soros, Gates, or Bezos -- but, those people are more like lottery winners in frequency than something people can directly achieve in most cases, luck certainly helps. But, that being said, anyone and I mean anyone could make 100k a year easy and someone who sweats a bit can make 200k just on career selection. So, no one is keeping you from "extremely good pay" or "influence" except yourself. It's around 300k where you need to start getting lucky in this country, to do better, and most people would agree that 300k+ is basically rich. (You can have everything you'd ever want at that income level, more is just frosting.) But, I did say sweat -- most people in this country aren't that motivated by money, so is why does everyone care what is in someone else's wallet? Make what you feel like making but certainly don't try to delude yourself into believing this is a class thing -- the only class you have is the one you pick.

Eh, ideologue Jordan Peterson really isn't, but honestly he's just a pretty conservative dude who publishes self-help crap. (Most annoying category for me to personally read, lol.) Anyway, his basic premises are available in many other, better books. Though, I still find him an interesting character...

Nationalism isn't worthless, it's good to be proud enough of your country that you don't let it fall apart. After all, that unity is basically the only thing that a country fundamentally is. Most of the people belly-aching about nationalism are the people who think there can be no borders because of X. Yeah, they're nuts, basically. The only reason you have anything is there are borders and they keep other nations and their people from taking it from you. As for authoritarianism, that's just taking a ghost -- who has made anyone do anything the USA? Also, chasing populism is equally silly -- there is always populism, it's a feature of human nature. There is no culture where populism isn't the predominate influence regardless of the organization of government or private spaces. China is populist, the USA is populist, hell I can't think of a single place that is not. Most countries serve the needs of their people -- and, those needs are largely what is popular with the masses.

I do think that energy spent complaining about
those better off were to be spent on self advancement,
there'd be a lot less to complain about.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
Yeah, the rich have more influence than anyone else, but who is keeping you from being rich in this system? :D .

As a commercial lawyer, I'm actually not doing badly out of the "system" at present compared to most. And my prospects going forward are leagues better than many of my countrymen.

But that doesn't blind me to the systemic barriers that prevent millions from lifting themselves out of near-penury. In fact, it is emboldening me to criticize it further - especially since I'm getting insights into its actual workings.

I would encourage you to read up on a boring legal term called "investor-state arbitration" unhelpfully inserted into many free trade agreements (that I otherwise support, I hate regulatory barriers to trade!). It's sobering.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
I do think that energy spent complaining about
those better off were to be spent on self advancement,
there'd be a lot less to complain about.

If only it were down to just "self-advancement". The prevalence of corrupt business interests—usually by the most powerful - who have massively distorted degrees of access to, and an unhealthy of level of influence on, elected officials, as opposed to merit, suggests otherwise.

The myth of the American dream, or the reward of thrift, is one of the most invidious of contemporary delusions. Jordan Peterson, in successfully distracting his fanbase away from systemic barriers, with his "get out of your mum's bedroom, it's all down to your hard graft" mantra and disparaging of collective action and identity politics (which is often the only vehicle for driving change), is helping to solidify it even more.

When many of these young men and women fail to break through the system, because its stacked against them, they will be invited to conclude that their natural inequality in intellect or thrift is to blame, which will only heighten their feelings of low self-esteem and likely the ever-growing male suicide rate as well. Automation in decades to come will only make it worse, with gazillions more unemployed. We are on the brink of a grave social crisis and are sleep-walking towards it.
 
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Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
...21st century democracy has increasingly proven inept at restraining corporate power and monopoly. Between 1980 and 2016, the top 1% acquired 28% of the aggregate increase in real incomes in Westernized democracies. The wage disparity between the average chief executive and and the average employee rose tenfold from 1970 to circa. 400. Multinational companies hoard wealth and influence governments around they world, harvesting personal data on private citizens and manipulating social media to further a corporatist agenda. They circumvent the legislation of national, elected legislatures by means of investor-state arbitration. They harm and degradation the environment. They evade tax....
This a muti-generational issue not merely 21st century. Its always been this way with brief reprieves. The problem is a human problem not strictly associated with a particular economic or political model.

People add regulations to curb extremes, and then business finds a way around those regulations. You have to keep changing the system, the economic model and the political maps. I know that sounds tricky, but its what happens anyway, forced at moments of extreme inequality and unhappiness.

You are talking about pie in the sky results, so you need to consider an extreme option. What we need, seriously, is to instate random chance into policy; because everything has become too predictable. That is periodically we should agree to choose an economic model by lottery and business regulatory structure the same way. Similarly industry and monopolies should be subject to some lottery in which there are winners and losers. Somehow predictability has to be decreased. Inertia is making the system too playable. My guess is we can't commit to something like this, and things will go on being what they have been.

Anything. How about just randomizing political district lines? Something!
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Lenin: The State and Revolution


The State and Revolution

V. I. Lenin (1917)
In capitalist society, under the conditions most favorable to its development, we have more or less complete democracy in the democratic republic. But this democracy is always bound by the narrow framework of capitalist exploitation and consequently always remains, in reality, a democracy for the minority, only for the possessing classes, only for the rich.

Freedom in capitalist society always remains just about the same as it was in the ancient Greek republics: freedom for the slave-owners. The modern wage slaves, owing to the conditions of capitalist exploitation, are so much crushed by want and poverty that "democracy is nothing to them," "politics is nothing to them"; that, in the ordinary peaceful course of events, the majority of the population is debarred from participating in social and political life...

Democracy for an insignificant minority, democracy for the rich - that is the democracy of capitalist society.


Now, let me make something crystal clear. I regard Lenin as a demagogic rascal, motivated by a cult of materialist-teleological-utopian violence, who committed a slew of unforgivable atrocities against the very peasants he claimed to be fighting for against the Tsarist, and then liberal, Russian state. He was the midwife of totalitarian Stalinism and its mass murder of millions of defenceless people, not to mention its ethnocide and forced relocation of minority nationalities, as well as the gulag terror system that decimated so many lives from Lithuania to Kazakhstan. I'm also a Christian, so his savage persecution of the Orthodox Church and other religions in the Soviet Union earns my added scorn.

He thus rates very poorly in my categorisation of influential historical personages, given that his legacy has been almost entirely negative (in my estimation).

So, needless to say, I don't take what I'm about to say lightly or with the remotest hint of relish....but I think Lenin had a point. :eek: Due to his crimes, this is difficult to say. But I can't deny it. The man had a point. His solution was terrible but his analysis of the sickness wasn't very far off the mark and is now rather prescient, like that of his ideological forbear Karl Marx.

21st century democracy has increasingly proven inept at restraining corporate power and monopoly. Between 1980 and 2016, the top 1% acquired 28% of the aggregate increase in real incomes in Westernized democracies. The wage disparity between the average chief executive and and the average employee rose tenfold from 1970 to circa. 400. Multinational companies hoard wealth and influence governments around they world, harvesting personal data on private citizens and manipulating social media to further a corporatist agenda. They circumvent the legislation of national, elected legislatures by means of investor-state arbitration. They harm and degradation the environment. They evade tax.

In case someone says, "but wait, we've been here before - the gilded age in the 19th century! Laissez-faire Victorian Britain!", I would like to note that modern inequality is wedded to a shocking drop in social mobility not experienced even by in the 1800s, if measured by its sheer difference in scale. The U.S., which once boasted the most socially mobile lower middle class, is now the hardest Western society in which to climb the social ladder according to statistics. "If you want to be smart and highly energetic, the most important single step you could take is to choose the right parents," said Robert Frank. He's right, unfortunately.

If we don't do something major, I fear that we are on a downward trajectory brought about by ignorance of what it took to bring about the Western European "idea" in the first place, lack of feeling for society's losers and those left-behind by the rapacious onslaught of financial globalization (even though I support both it and free trade in principle), and crass complacency about our system's durability despite the solemn warning-shot of the 2009 banking crisis and the credit crunch.

The consequence of this generational - and I would add suicidal - misjudgement, is authoritarian populism and it's ever-rising appeal to young, socially dislocated men in particular. Jordan Peterson will be the first of many ideologues targeting impressionable young minds.

If we witness a whole generation of radicalised young men drawn to authoritarian nationalism (as we seem to be), their movement is our monster. Our system has created this distrust of "elites" (however nebulously defined). I would say that our liberal democratic system is as guilty as that of the aristocratic and mercantile one that preceded it, the policies of which - land enclosure and appropriation - fanned thievery and brigandage in sixteenth century England.

Are we really so far from the unequal, slave-holding, elitist democracy of classical Athens as we commonly assume? Lenin thought we weren't and with reluctance I'm starting to believe him. An extended franchise is not enough to provide real and effective equality.

Discuss.

I think my main beef with capitalism is that a lot of what is practiced these days (and the resulting consequences which impact upon the lower classes) is that so much of it is unnecessary. The apparent condition of so few people having so much while so many people have so little is not because there isn't enough to go around. Nor is it really based in any genuine desire for economic efficiency or greater prosperity in society. It's based more in a set of philosophical values and clinging to aristocratic traditions that "this is how it must always be." This isn't necessarily true for all capitalists, but it still seems be prevalent in discussions of national policy where capitalist ideologues can appear the most zealous and devoted to their beliefs.

That's one thing that characterized pre-revolutionary Russia, a country steeped in tradition and clinging to old beliefs - even when common sense dictated taking another course. The Soviet Union took a similar course where they thought their ideology was flawless, so they clung to those new beliefs with a fervent passion.

It may not be a truly "systemic" issue, in that both systems are workable under the right conditions. The real trouble is when either system gets inundated with ideologues and "true believers" who are more interested in propagating faith in the system rather than fixing it to make it work better. I think this was a serious flaw in the Soviet Union and the main factor contributing to its failure.

I see a lot of the same mentality in the U.S., coming from both sides of the spectrum. There are many "true believers" in the U.S. system - even if there might be shades of disagreement over what that "system" actually is.

Lenin was dealing with Tsarist Russia in his time and perspective. The U.S. system at that time was undergoing many changes as well, as it had been since the Civil War up until WW1 and the post-war years. The labor movement was burgeoning, and the isolationists were starting to shrink in number. I think FDR's administration did a great deal to change and shape the U.S. system in the modern sense, leading to a peak in our economic strength and standard of living. Working class people were moving out of their tenements and into suburban homes.

Things were good for a time, particularly for those who grew up during that period, enjoying the good life and all the distractions and luxuries America had to offer. With so many working people having it so good, how could anyone not reach the conclusion that this was the greatest country with the greatest economic system on Earth? We would hear about other countries, particularly those racked with poverty and starvation. Then there were the evil communist countries where people were sent to Siberian gulags. Hearing about all these horrors outside of the safe, secure bubble of American capitalism, one might get the impression that the outside world is some kind of terrible place, full of demons and commies out to get us all.

Of course, the conditions are not as bad now as they were in Russia in 1917, and things still seem to be functioning adequately enough - even with a temporary shutdown. But if that turns into a regular thing, with the possibility of strikes, work stoppages, boycotts among a disgruntled populace, then we might see further effects on the economy.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
If only it were down to just "self-advancement".

The myth of the American dream, or the reward of thrift, is one of the most invidious of contemporary delusions.

The prevalence of corrupt business interests—usually by the most powerful - who have massively distorted degrees of access to, and an unhealthy of level of influence on, elected officials, as opposed to merit, suggests otherwise.

"Invidious"? who is angry other than maybe some low
achievers?

Now, I did not say that it is so simple. I am sure that
it was not so simple for Neanderthal.

However-

I know people who come from backgrounds that
would provide ready explanation for drug /
alcohol problems, poverty and crime-but who had
it in them to make it to real status in society.

It has far far more to do with ability and motivation
than with whether someone else is closing the doors.

One does not need corrupt access to gov't or old-boy
in the USA, in order to become whoever a person
has it in them to be.

I dont know in what sense you mean the word
"myth". The dictionary includes things that are
true, under that heading. The American dream
of success coming to those why try is no false
myth.

There are obstacles, every place and time has
always had them. I think there is more access
for more people in the USA than anywhere, ever,
anywhere else.

It is always good to go after corruption but
tipping the boat over is no solution What
do you propose?
 

Audie

Veteran Member
This a muti-generational issue not merely 21st century. Its always been this way with brief reprieves. The problem is a human problem not strictly associated with a particular economic or political model.

People add regulations to curb extremes, and then business finds a way around those regulations. You have to keep changing the system, the economic model and the political maps. I know that sounds tricky, but its what happens anyway, forced at moments of extreme inequality and unhappiness.

You are talking about pie in the sky results, so you need to consider an extreme option. What we need, seriously, is to instate random chance into policy; because everything has become too predictable. That is periodically we should agree to choose an economic model by lottery and business regulatory structure the same way. Similarly industry and monopolies should be subject to some lottery in which there are winners and losers. Somehow predictability has to be decreased. Inertia is making the system too playable. My guess is we can't commit to something like this, and things will go on being what they have been.

Anything. How about just randomizing political district lines? Something!

The USA is so awful that anything is better?
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The USA is so awful that anything is better?
Not at all. We are talking about getting pie-in-the sky results, progressive results. What we have now is pretty good relative to what has gone before. Nevertheless I don't think 21st century is worse than 19th and 20th like in the OP.
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
As a commercial lawyer, I'm actually not doing badly out of the "system" at present compared to most. And my prospects going forward are leagues better than many of my countrymen.

But that doesn't blind me to the systemic barriers that prevent millions from lifting themselves out of near-penury. In fact, it is emboldening me to criticize it further - especially since I'm getting insights into its actual workings.

I would encourage you to read up on a boring legal term called "investor-state arbitration" unhelpfully inserted into many free trade agreements (that I otherwise support, I hate regulatory barriers to trade!). It's sobering.

You chose a career that has much advancement potential, thus the results are simply expected. :D But, there are plenty of other paths which have similar advancement. Who made that choice for you? You did. Who'd have stopped you? You. That's exactly my point in all of this... The class thing is pretty irrelevant. You can be the poorest SOB in the world and if you go to school and become a doctor or lawyer you won't be. Of course, there are other paths that lead to similar results -- aviation, tech careers, oil/petroleum/natural gas, and so on. It's not hard to find something you enjoy and make big money with that. There's even plenty of money in working your way up in food service to a restaurant owner, provided you do something more with it than provide fast food. Basically, it's where you get comfortable that shapes your income more than anything else.

And, for systematic barriers -- there aren't any. The lower income you have the more financial assistance you will get from the government for education. Sure, you got to keep a minimum GPA and pay them back, but in the net of things you will get out of the hole and end up with a nice income. My aunt and uncle were in this situation, both became doctors -- they did service for hospitals in poor neighborhoods for a couple of years after school and their student debt was zero'd out through a pay-off program. :D This, like a lawyer, is the most expensive bit. Anyway, they were simply willing to meet the demand and sweat to be debt free. It's so easy in this country to do that. You can't even blame the schools you attended, you can study up on the side until you're good enough to enter any school you'd like -- hell I did. I came from a real poor neighborhood with terrible schools my knowledge gap from that to what it would require to entire the coursework I wanted to take was huge. I spent a year just studying on my own to even be ABLE to enter college. (If I had gone earlier, I'd have basically had to sit through rudimentary catch up classes before attending my program. This step saved me a year or more of tuition easy.)

Of course, you can decide you want to just doing what you are doing and refuse to improve the situation. Buuuut.... still no one is stopping you... It's far easier to complain than sweat or come up with "fancy reasons" that you're not at the top of the food chain. But, it's just delusional in countries like the USA --- you're a product of your choices more than anything.

Certainly, rich people have more influence but they're fenced in by populism and its needs. Where they get a pass, it's simply where the masses don't care. But, since they don't care they're probably not losing anything... Since, they will when they do. :D
 
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Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
It's really tough convincing the hard line capitalist that he doesn't deserve to earn off the backs of others, but we could try harder. Some have become philanthropists.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
I know people who come from backgrounds that
would provide ready explanation for drug /
alcohol problems, poverty and crime-but who had
it in them to make it to real status in society.

Those individuals are a slim minority today.

It has far far more to do with ability and motivation
than with whether someone else is closing the doors.

It doesn't, and respectfully, your contention here would not withstand one minute of scrutiny from a seasoned political scientist relying upon the most up-to-date analyses of sharply falling social mobility.

The very mind-set espoused above is the reason that the 1% are able to use the the empty concept of "meritocracy" as a cloak to hide the very real systemic factors that underpin income inequality.

I wish we could expose it for the fiction that it truly, for the overwhelming majority, is.

But myths die hard, especially consoling ones.
 

Woberts

The Perfumed Seneschal
Eh, I agree with you on almost everything here.
Judging from the OP, I draw more upon the works of Lenin than you do.
I find your analysis of his character a bit... off.
 
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