"Democracy for the rich"

[Audie]

I think my main beef with capitalism is that a lot of what is practiced these days (and the resulting consequences which impact upon the lower classes) is that so much of it is unnecessary. The apparent condition of so few people having so much while so many people have so little is not because there isn't enough to go around. Nor is it really based in any genuine desire for economic efficiency or greater prosperity in society. It's based more in a set of philosophical values and clinging to aristocratic traditions that "this is how it must always be." This isn't necessarily true for all capitalists, but it still seems be prevalent in discussions of national policy where capitalist ideologues can appear the most zealous and devoted to their beliefs.

That's one thing that characterized pre-revolutionary Russia, a country steeped in tradition and clinging to old beliefs - even when common sense dictated taking another course. The Soviet Union took a similar course where they thought their ideology was flawless, so they clung to those new beliefs with a fervent passion.

It may not be a truly "systemic" issue, in that both systems are workable under the right conditions. The real trouble is when either system gets inundated with ideologues and "true believers" who are more interested in propagating faith in the system rather than fixing it to make it work better. I think this was a serious flaw in the Soviet Union and the main factor contributing to its failure.

I see a lot of the same mentality in the U.S., coming from both sides of the spectrum. There are many "true believers" in the U.S. system - even if there might be shades of disagreement over what that "system" actually is.

Lenin was dealing with Tsarist Russia in his time and perspective. The U.S. system at that time was undergoing many changes as well, as it had been since the Civil War up until WW1 and the post-war years. The labor movement was burgeoning, and the isolationists were starting to shrink in number. I think FDR's administration did a great deal to change and shape the U.S. system in the modern sense, leading to a peak in our economic strength and standard of living. Working class people were moving out of their tenements and into suburban homes.

Things were good for a time, particularly for those who grew up during that period, enjoying the good life and all the distractions and luxuries America had to offer. With so many working people having it so good, how could anyone not reach the conclusion that this was the greatest country with the greatest economic system on Earth? We would hear about other countries, particularly those racked with poverty and starvation. Then there were the evil communist countries where people were sent to Siberian gulags. Hearing about all these horrors outside of the safe, secure bubble of American capitalism, one might get the impression that the outside world is some kind of terrible place, full of demons and commies out to get us all.

Of course, the conditions are not as bad now as they were in Russia in 1917, and things still seem to be functioning adequately enough - even with a temporary shutdown. But if that turns into a regular thing, with the possibility of strikes, work stoppages, boycotts among a disgruntled populace, then we might see further effects on the economy.

so many people have so little is not because there isn't enough to go around.

Can you put numbers to that?

How much is "so little" and compared to
what, where, who?

The U.S. Census Bureau reported in September 2017 that real median household income was $59,039 in 2016, exceeding any previous year

The whining in the USA about having so little
seems a bit misplaced. A visit to divers third world
countries, telling all about how bad off Americans
are would lead to some skepticism, at the very least.

Just in case you might think I am
what you refer to here- There are many
"true believers" in the U.S. system -

My money is from where they actually do
capitalism-HK.

Do you have constructive ideas about what
to do in the US, to make everyone richer?

 

[Revoltingest]

"Invidious"? who is angry other than maybe some low
achievers?

Now, I did not say that it is so simple. I am sure that
it was not so simple for Neanderthal.

However-

I know people who come from backgrounds that
would provide ready explanation for drug /
alcohol problems, poverty and crime-but who had
it in them to make it to real status in society.

It has far far more to do with ability and motivation
than with whether someone else is closing the doors.

One does not need corrupt access to gov't or old-boy
in the USA, in order to become whoever a person
has it in them to be.

I dont know in what sense you mean the word
"myth". The dictionary includes things that are
true, under that heading. The American dream
of success coming to those why try is no false
myth.

There are obstacles, every place and time has
always had them. I think there is more access
for more people in the USA than anywhere, ever,
anywhere else.

It is always good to go after corruption but
tipping the boat over is no solution What
do you propose?

All that you've said can be observed first hand by looking
at one's co-workers, friends, employees, contractors, etc.
I've had employees who fit 2 different groups....
1) Those who leave my employ because they've grown to be
too valuable to work for me. Thru educating themselves,
working hard, & taking opportunities, they've advanced.
2) Those who are fired for theft or sloth.

Intelligence isn't always the separator of those groups.
It's primarily about what they want & are willing to do in
order to achieve it.
I've hired the poor. The ones who stay poor aren't interested
in avancement or savings. They spend their surplus pay on
dope, fast food, tattoos & booze. Although one guy told me
that he "invested" his money in the lottery. No s**t...that was
his word, not mine. Somebody has to win, right?

As for democracy, the votes of group #2 each count every
bit as much as does mine.

 

[Audie]

Those individuals are a slim minority today.



It doesn't, and respectfully, your contention here would not withstand one minute of scrutiny from a seasoned political scientist relying upon the most up-to-date analyses of sharply falling social mobility.

The very mind-set espoused above is the reason that the 1% are able to use the the empty concept of "meritocracy" as a cloak to hide the very real systemic factors that underpin income inequality.

I wish we could expose it for the fiction that it truly, for the overwhelming majority, is.

But myths die hard, especially consoling ones.

I have an uncle who just cannot give up on the Cultural
Revolution. We avoid talking politics with him.

I get the impression you are an ideolog, disinclined
to give a moment's consideration to anything I say.

 

[Quintessence]

If only it were down to just "self-advancement". The prevalence of corrupt business interests—usually by the most powerful - who have massively distorted degrees of access to, and an unhealthy of level of influence on, elected officials, as opposed to merit, suggests otherwise.

The myth of the American dream, or the reward of thrift, is one of the most invidious of contemporary delusions. Jordan Peterson, in successfully distracting his fanbase away from systemic barriers, with his "get out of your mum's bedroom, it's all down to your hard graft" mantra and disparaging of collective action and identity politics (which is often the only vehicle for driving change), is helping to solidify it even more.

When many of these young men and women fail to break through the system, because its stacked against them, they will be invited to conclude that their natural inequality in intellect or thrift is to blame, which will only heighten their feelings of low self-esteem and likely the ever-growing male suicide rate as well. Automation in decades to come will only make it worse, with gazillions more unemployed. We are on the brink of a grave social crisis and are sleep-walking towards it.

This is a hard lesson to learn and a story many do not want to hear - that the American dream is not just a myth in the "sacred story" sense of the word, but it is a myth in the "this is a lie" sense of the word. It's a sacred story in that we want to believe it, because we like myths about justice and fairness. We want to believe that good folks get good things, that bad folks get bad things, and that nobody gets what they do not deserve. We want to believe that our own personal power - above all other factors - is what impacts our fates. We like the narrative of control.

When you have a life experience that puts cracks and fissures in that sacred story, it's harrowing. We're taught that if we do everything right, we have the power to change our fates and we will get the good things we deserve. If that doesn't happen, the myth forces us into some very mentally unhealthy narratives. The sacred story tells us that it's personally our fault. We didn't work hard enough, we're stupid, we're failures, and we're bad people. Instead of seeing the problem as the result of social and environmental factors outside of our control, we see it as a problem with ourselves and spiral into mental depravity.

Sometimes, we wake up to the lie of the sacred story when we're taken down that path in life. But often we don't, because there are not good alternative narratives for most people. We lack strong stories about the importance of community, environment, and context to fall back upon for strength. That seems to be changing, slowly. The inequality that has become steadily more severe cannot continue, if history is any indication. Revolution or revolt will ensue. What will come after?

 

[Revoltingest]

This is a hard lesson to learn and a story many do not want to hear - that the American dream is not just a myth in the "sacred story" sense of the word, but it is a myth in the "this is a lie" sense of the word. It's a sacred story in that we want to believe it, because we like myths about justice and fairness. We want to believe that good folks get good things, that bad folks get bad things, and that nobody gets what they do not deserve. We want to believe that our own personal power - above all other factors - is what impacts our fates. We like the narrative of control.

When you have a life experience that puts cracks and fissures in that sacred story, it's harrowing. We're taught that if we do everything right, we have the power to change our fates and we will get the good things we deserve. If that doesn't happen, the myth forces us into some very mentally unhealthy narratives. The sacred story tells us that it's personally our fault. We didn't work hard enough, we're stupid, we're failures, and we're bad people. Instead of seeing the problem as the result of social and environmental factors outside of our control, we see it as a problem with ourselves and spiral into mental depravity.

Sometimes, we wake up to the lie of the sacred story when we're taken down that path in life. But often we don't, because there are not good alternative narratives for most people. We lack strong stories about the importance of community, environment, and context to fall back upon for strength. That seems to be changing, slowly. The inequality that has become steadily more severe cannot continue, if history is any indication. Revolution or revolt will ensue. What will come after?

Would you tell children that it makes no difference if they work hard in school?
Or that all their ambitions are irrelevant....that the system, outrageous fortune
& privilege determine their futures?

 

[Vouthon]

I have an uncle who just cannot give up on the Cultural
Revolution. We avoid talking politics with him.

I get the impression you are an ideolog, disinclined
to give a moment's consideration to anything I say.

Hardly, and I would kindly encourage you not to name-call those you are debating with (it's not good form, or mannerly). I am not an ideologue. My views, over the years, have developed on a good number of things and I am frequently self-critical.

I just strongly disagree with you and believe that the consensus among social scientists and charities engaged in the study of the causes of inequality and the reality of steadily depreciating social mobility, back up my argument and disprove yours.

If you have killer evidence to the contrary, I'm more than ready to hear it and then mull over it for a while before forming my opinion.

Were I giving only a moment's consideration to what you say, then rest assured I wouldn't have written a fairly lengthy reply to your earlier points setting out where and why we disagree.

 

[Audie]

All that you've said can be observed first hand by looking
at one's co-workers, friends, employees, contractors, etc.
I've had employees who fit 2 different groups....
1) Those who leave my employ because they've grown to be
too valuable to work for me. Thru educating themselves,
working hard, & taking opportunities, they've advanced.
2) Those who are fired for theft or sloth.

Intelligence isn't always the separator of those groups.
It's primarily about what they want & are willing to do in
order to achieve it.
I've hired the poor. The ones who stay poor aren't interested
in avancement or savings. They spend their surplus pay on
dope, fast food, tattoos & booze. Although one guy told me
that he "invested" his money in the lottery. No s**t...that was
his word, not mine. Somebody has to win, right?

Spoken as one with real world, eyes open experience.

It's primarily about what they want & are willing to do in
order to achieve it.

Exactly so.

For an example. a dear friend here in the USA
is like me, an Asian immigrant.

She has been very successful. Certainly more
than a millionaire.

Here is the big difference between her,
and me. . I was, yeah, born with
a silver spoon, as they say.

She is from a third world subsistence rice farm,
her Dad did not finish first grade. No chance to.

She did not want to live that way.

Anyone here in the USA with normal health
and brain who wants to say that they face
more obstacles than she did is just a darn fool
and lying to all who hear it.

 

[Audie]

Hardly, and I would encourage you not to disparage or name-call those you are debating with (it's not good form, or mannerly).

I just strongly disagree with you and believe that the consensus among social scientists and charities engaged in the study of the causes of inequality and the reality of steadily depreciating social mobility, back up my argument and disprove yours.

If you have killer evidence to the contrary, I'm more than ready to hear it.

Were I not giving a moment's consideration to what you say, then I wouldn't have written a fairly lengthy reply to your earlier points.

I think you only considered how you were going to say I am
wrong.

"Killer evidence"? You strongly disagree, and believe
this and that said by some consensus.

See my friend's story. She arrived in the USA with
one pair of shoes. She knew one person, who was
just as broke as herself.

No whining, no excuses, she just got busy and
made something of herself.

 

[Vouthon]

I think you only considered how you were going to say I am
wrong.

And I think it is for me to know my own reasons for considering your opinion wrong and for you to accept my honesty in explaining why, in good faith. And vice-versa.

"Killer evidence"? You strongly disagree, and believe
this and that said by some consensus.

I find the corroborated and carefully researched studies of expert social scientists and charities whose job it is to analyse the causes of rising inequality compelling and persuasive, yes I do.

See my friend's story. She arrived in the USA with
one pair of shoes. She knew one person, who was
just as broke as herself.

No whining, no excuses, she just got busy and
made something of herself.

Well, congratulations to her. But one anecdote does not discount the many contrary cases that I have come across in my own life and the ample academic studies - spanning large samples of people - that strongly suggest otherwise.

 

[Audie]

This is a hard lesson to learn and a story many do not want to hear - that the American dream is not just a myth in the "sacred story" sense of the word, but it is a myth in the "this is a lie" sense of the word. It's a sacred story in that we want to believe it, because we like myths about justice and fairness. We want to believe that good folks get good things, that bad folks get bad things, and that nobody gets what they do not deserve. We want to believe that our own personal power - above all other factors - is what impacts our fates. We like the narrative of control.

When you have a life experience that puts cracks and fissures in that sacred story, it's harrowing. We're taught that if we do everything right, we have the power to change our fates and we will get the good things we deserve. If that doesn't happen, the myth forces us into some very mentally unhealthy narratives. The sacred story tells us that it's personally our fault. We didn't work hard enough, we're stupid, we're failures, and we're bad people. Instead of seeing the problem as the result of social and environmental factors outside of our control, we see it as a problem with ourselves and spiral into mental depravity.

Sometimes, we wake up to the lie of the sacred story when we're taken down that path in life. But often we don't, because there are not good alternative narratives for most people. We lack strong stories about the importance of community, environment, and context to fall back upon for strength. That seems to be changing, slowly. The inequality that has become steadily more severe cannot continue, if history is any indication. Revolution or revolt will ensue. What will come after?

This is a hard lesson to learn and a story many do not want to hear - that the American dream is not just a myth in the "sacred story"

Seems to me the hard lesson that many dont want to
hear would be in the story I told about my friend.

It kind of leaves them gulping like a goldfish
on the carpet, for lo,it deprives them of their excuses.

 

[Audie]

And I think it is for me to know my own reasons for considering your opinion wrong and for you to accept my honesty in explaining why, in good faith. And vice-versa.



I find the corroborated and carefully researched studies of expert social scientists and charities whose job it is to analyse the causes of rising inequality compelling and persuasive, yes I do.



Well, congratulations to her. But one anecdote does not discount the many contrary cases that I have come across in my life and the ample academic studies - spanning large samples of people - that strongly suggest otherwise.

She is so far from being unique, your "one anecdote"
is sorely misplaced.

Everything you can think of was rigged against her.

She has never made excuses or given up.

The prob, as your Bard might be misquoted, is
not in your system but in yourselves.

 

[Quintessence]

Would you tell children that it makes no difference if they work hard in school?

Of course I wouldn't - that's nonsense and factually inaccurate. If I'd wanted to post a parody of extremism, I would have done it in my first post.

 

[Vouthon]

She is so far from being unique, your "one anecdote"
is sorely misplaced.

I am sincerely struggling to understand how you can extrapolate, so easily, from the individual lot of one person and apply it to society at large. I regard that as misplaced.

 

[metis]

One thing that had very much helped to more even the "playing field" was unions, but the reality here in the States is that they have been decimated by laws passed to favor the owners and the wealthy, such as with "right to work" laws.

With that being the case, is there really any surprise that the disparity of wealth has dramatically increased, with the top flourishing and the lower and middle income families struggling or out-and-out suffering?

And we also know that stronger unions "raised all ships" to help create the middle class, whereas higher wages, better benefits, and democratic models of shared responsibility and wealth increased. But the owners and investors don't want that because that cuts into their profit margins, thus they more prefer an autocratic model while mouthing "democracy". They decry "crony capitalism" but then vote for someone who is essentially crony-capitalism on steroids. They may say they're a "libertarian", but the reality is that only applies to their own "liberty", but not the laborers who do most of the grunt work.

And, of course, it's mostly the Pubs, although some Dems as well, then enable this hypocrisy by trying to convince people that it is they who are the true "patriots" and that "leftists" are ruining the country. Unfortunately, all too many people believe in their lies because, as the old saying goes, "money talks...". Goebbels bragged that it was propaganda that sold the Third Reich to the masses, and all too many Germans believed them, much like all too many of the masses here believe that the demise of the unions will help the middle income families in the long run. History says it won't, as we slip more and more into being a "potato republic", namely a northern variation of a "banana republic".

 

[Revoltingest]

Of course I wouldn't - that's nonsense and factually inaccurate. If I'd wanted to post a parody of extremism, I would have done it in my first post.

I knew you'd agree.
But I was pointing out that the Ameristanian
"myth" of succuss thru hard work is not a "lie".
It's just not guaranteed.

 

[Orbit]

It is an absolute myth that "anyone can make it". You have a bigger chance at being struck by lightning that you do going from the bottom to the top of society. And it requires hard work, and LUCK. Simple luck, which is why it is so rare. Social class mobility in the US is declining, and the current generation will be less well off that their parents. This isn't because they are lazy, it's because the cost of living has risen since the 1970s and wages have stagnated at remained at 1970s levels. It has a real human cost, and the reality of life is that it takes money, connections, and luck to get ahead, and it's hard to acquire those if you aren't born with them.

Some recommended reading: https://www.amazon.com/Evicted-Pove...icted+poverty+and+profit+in+the+american+city

 

[Orbit]

so many people have so little is not because there isn't enough to go around.

Can you put numbers to that?

How much is "so little" and compared to
what, where, who?

The U.S. Census Bureau reported in September 2017 that real median household income was $59,039 in 2016, exceeding any previous year

The whining in the USA about having so little
seems a bit misplaced. A visit to divers third world
countries, telling all about how bad off Americans
are would lead to some skepticism, at the very least.

Just in case you might think I am
what you refer to here- There are many
"true believers" in the U.S. system -

My money is from where they actually do
capitalism-HK.

Do you have constructive ideas about what
to do in the US, to make everyone richer?

The median income figure is an average, and requires interpretation. For example, what is the median cost of living? 59K in NYC or most of California won't even pay your rent. Constructive ideas on what to do? Increase the marginal tax rate back to what it was 1950-1970.

 

[Mindmaster]

Would you tell children that it makes no difference if they work hard in school?
Or that all their ambitions are irrelevant....that the system, outrageous fortune
& privilege determine their futures?

Yeah, somehow I don't think that will help anyone's outcome. But, the other bit is it's not a lie.

Sure, you have to be picky about career selection and whether what you've invested in otherwise leads to a payoff. But, that doesn't mean you can't get what you want if you try with all of the effort you can muster.

You aren't going to get rich being a fast food server, or a janitor. You just aren't. But, you could use the income from that to develop another opportunity. I've found most of the people complaining about these sorts of things settle at some level, and since it's easier to *****, they do. They probably make enough to pay the rent and eat, but that's all they're willing to work for. Of course, that's all you NEED to work for -- so, don't think I find fault with that. But, again, you want more -- nothing is stopping you. Add skills, invest money in things that produce income, or whatever -- but certainly don't pretend like there is no way out of the hole.

If anything is "wrong" in this whole debacle it's the tolerance for people to listen to people complain about how crappy their situation is and not rebuke it correctly, aka, "You caused this, but the good news is you can undo it too." There is a culture of having a lack of personal responsibility, and I find that to be the biggest problem. Period.

 

[Audie]

I am sincerely struggling to understand how you can extrapolate, so easily, from the individual lot of one person and apply it to society at large. I regard that as misplaced.

She is far from unique, but one representative of
what can be done by those who try.

It aint much of a struggle to udnerstand. If she can do it, anyone of ability and drive can. If "society at large" had a lid
clamped down on everyone without connections,, a dark sinned immigrant with sketchy English skills might find much to complain of.

I do not know where a person has a better chance
than here.

Sure, id is not perfect, but sometimes Americans sound
so spoilt to those outside who'd love to have their
disadvantages.

Do you have some constructive changes to suggest?

 

[metis]

It is an absolute myth that "anyone can make it".

Much like Lucy allowing Charlie Brown to kick the football.