"Democracy for the rich"

[Revoltingest]

To me, corporate welfare is a serious part of the problem as are tax loopholes allowing the wealthy to reduce their burden to almost zero in many cases.

Corporate welfare does exist, & should go (although
there are complexities regarding national security).
But what are the "tax loopholes" of which you speak?

 

[sun rise]

It's even easier with a wife, tbh, if she works as well. If both are pulling 40-50k you're getting there even faster, like half the time. Living beyond your means and not saving is not being sensible as well. That means, yeah, you buy a smaller house than you can afford on paper because they're going to sell you one that takes 40% of your income and that's too damn much.

Kids do add expenses, but it kind of goes in phases -- they're cheap when they're small, get a bit more costly in the teen years. After the teen years, it's not your damn problem, lol. The most expensive thing in child rearing is diapers and baby formula, seriously... Anything you can do in that regard saves a ton of cash.

Anyway, if you're thinking about the money only here you're missing out. Kids are great.

Using the $15 minimum wage, 15 x 8 = $120 per day. or $2,640 per month or $31,680 per year. Now if you are advocating a $15/hour minimum wage then your calculation is not too far off.

 

[sun rise]

And of course, using anecdotes is a most cromulent way to disprove a rule.
I know that you already know that, but it had to be said.

It does not disprove a general rule. If someone uses "always" or some other word to that effect, I would agree. But I did not see anyone asserting a universal or invariant rule in this thread.

 

[Revoltingest]

It does not disprove a general rule. If someone uses "always" or some other word to that effect, I would agree. But I did not see anyone asserting a universal or invariant rule in this thread.

That's a lot of words to agree with me.

 

[Mindmaster]

Many people simply cannot afford to save 20% of their pay; it's going to rent, food, health care/insurance; car repair/gas/insurance. Most Americans live paycheck to paycheck because wages have stagnated since the 1970s while the cost of living has risen.

If they live beyond their means that means they cannot afford to be a millionaire, and can't ***** about it.

You can have the new car, the expensive house, and all the trimmings or you can dial that back a notch -- still have your needs met, and save the money. But, even if you could just do 10% or 5% that would take you off this "paycheck to paycheck" scenario. Can you live for a year without pay? You should be able to, something could happen where you couldn't work that long...

If you ask these people how much they save, they'll tell you "save what", but if you ask them about how many times they go out to eat or go to the movies it's every week. Guess what, that's where the "savings" went. If you ask me about those questions, it's never and never. I rather keep the money than waste it on something that lasts about five minutes or is just marked up to hell and back. Catch the movie on Netflix or even rent it on Amazon -- still cheaper than the theater and your whole family can watch it for the price of one ticket. If they're poorer ask them how much is going on weed and going to the club, lol. You will find that's where a significant amount of the wasted money goes.

If the people make more money they tend to spend it on travel, they'll still have an empty bank account -- effectively having no more wealth than the supposedly poor person. If you spend it all, you have no wealth... How much you make is irrelevant, it's how much you keep.

 

[Revoltingest]

If they live beyond their means that means they cannot afford to be a millionaire, and can't ***** about it.

You can have the new car, the expensive house, and all the trimmings or you can dial that back a notch -- still have your needs met, and save the money. But, even if you could just do 10% or 5% that would take you off this "paycheck to paycheck" scenario. Can you live for a year without pay? You should be able to, something could happen where you couldn't work that long...

If you ask these people how much they save, they'll tell you "save what", but if you ask them about how many times they go out to eat or go to the movies it's every week. Guess what, that's where the "savings" went. If you ask me about those questions, it's never and never. I rather keep the money than waste it on something that lasts about five minutes or is just marked up to hell and back. Catch the movie on Netflix or even rent it on Amazon -- still cheaper than the theater and your whole family can watch it for the price of one ticket. If they're poorer ask them how much is going on weed and going to the club, lol. You will find that's where a significant amount of the wasted money goes.

If the people make more money they tend to spend it on travel, they'll still have an empty bank account -- effectively having no more wealth than the supposedly poor person. If you spend it all, you have no wealth... How much you make is irrelevant, it's how much you keep.

It appears that some think all that needs to be done is get a good job,
& then financial stability & success will automatically accrue to them.
As you point out, it's easy to let excess income just evaporate.
Want to get ahead of the game?
- Rent out that RV or extra bedroom on airbnb.
- Sell excess stuff & garage sale finds on ebay.
- Get a 2nd part time job.
- Don't eat out often.
- Buy clothing at thrift stores.
- Drive that old car an extra 5 years.
- Do your own repairs.
- Ditch spendy cable TV upgrades.
- Set that thermostat lower or higher in winter or summer.
- Staycation instead of vacation.
- Have fewer kids. We have enuf people already.

 

[Jumi]

I do think that energy spent complaining about
those better off were to be spent on self advancement,
there'd be a lot less to complain about.

Yes, at least for those lucky ones of us who have resources and good health for it. Though it will not help those who get kicked to the wayside and don't have energy anymore to complain. So the people complaining are mostly those who are better off.

 

[Mindmaster]

Using the $15 minimum wage, 15 x 8 = $120 per day. or $2,640 per month or $31,680 per year. Now if you are advocating a $15/hour minimum wage then your calculation is not too far off.

If all you're making is a minimum wage you're not even trying -- exception being that it's like your first job. I remember those days before college when I couldn't make money working with computers because I didn't have anything "on paper", but I did everything I could to get the paper to match my ability. I probably spent two years of my life (before I was 20) making that money, after that I never made less than twice that. I got the grades and starting doing internships in my second semester of school -- sure I had some long 13-16 hours days there doing full time school and work, but I wasn't hurting for money at all. Mind you, during this time, I had a wife and a kid, and one on the way.

That being said, I think anyone can learn anything if they're of reasonable intellect and willing to put forth the effort. There is no excuse as to why someone can't earn, unless they just don't want to do the work. Of course, you might be perfectly happy with that money and I'm down with that. But, there isn't some system keeping people from attaining anything -- there are tons of people looking to give you money to help you along the way.

 

[Orbit]

If they live beyond their means that means they cannot afford to be a millionaire, and can't ***** about it.

You can have the new car, the expensive house, and all the trimmings or you can dial that back a notch -- still have your needs met, and save the money. But, even if you could just do 10% or 5% that would take you off this "paycheck to paycheck" scenario. Can you live for a year without pay? You should be able to, something could happen where you couldn't work that long...

If you ask these people how much they save, they'll tell you "save what", but if you ask them about how many times they go out to eat or go to the movies it's every week. Guess what, that's where the "savings" went. If you ask me about those questions, it's never and never. I rather keep the money than waste it on something that lasts about five minutes or is just marked up to hell and back. Catch the movie on Netflix or even rent it on Amazon -- still cheaper than the theater and your whole family can watch it for the price of one ticket. If they're poorer ask them how much is going on weed and going to the club, lol. You will find that's where a significant amount of the wasted money goes.

If the people make more money they tend to spend it on travel, they'll still have an empty bank account -- effectively having no more wealth than the supposedly poor person. If you spend it all, you have no wealth... How much you make is irrelevant, it's how much you keep.

I am not talking about living "beyond their means", but living at all. If you can't afford to go to school, and have to work you're going to have an impossible time living on minimum wage. School, even community college costs money, and even if you get financial aid, it doesn't pay for it all. Starting at the bottom means you don't have the resources to move up the ladder because every car breakdown or emergency room visit is a total disaster (and unless you live in a major city with good public transport, which is not much of America, you need a car to get to work)--people routinely have to choose between paying rent, going to the doctor, or fixing the car or feeding themselves. Bottom line: it is extremely difficult to "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" and a lot of those who think it can be done are forgetting the invisible support they had making it (housing from family, money from family, job opportunities, and just plain luck).

 

[Audie]

They're already taxing the wealthy.
It's about how they spend the money that matters.
Voters (both Dem & Pub) would rather pour it into
foreign countries, either as bombs or cash.

Mismanagement of money by both govt and individuals
not skilled in the art is a huge problem, for sure.

Tax the rich enough and they wont be rich, and the
money will be gone and then what.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, my family is into
real estate-you need either the govt, or private
corporations to get the money together for
a project. I trust nobody wants t he govt to
do it all.

"Rich People's" money pays the wages of
all the people who put up the structures.
When its done, people have places to live.

What is wrong with that?
How else is this supposed to be done?
(questions for our budding socialists)

BTW, I dont much care for my money
being used to buy bombs.

I think the govt is trusted with way too
much money as it is.

 

[Audie]

That being said, I think anyone can learn anything if they're of reasonable intellect and willing to put forth the effort. There is no excuse as to why someone can't earn, unless they just don't want to do the work. Of course, you might be perfectly happy with that money and I'm down with that. But, there isn't some system keeping people from attaining anything -- there are tons of people looking to give you money to help you along the way.

We begs to differ. "Blame the rich" is a terrif excuse.

 

[Audie]

I" and a lot of those who think it can be done are forgetting the invisible support they had making it (housing from family, money from family, job opportunities, and just plain luck).

And those who just get busy and do it, with no
help visible or otherwise, well, that is just a fallacy.
Not hard work, no.
Luck, or lots of help.

See "Chinaman's chance" below.

Honestly, people in America!

 

[sun rise]

Corporate welfare does exist, & should go (although
there are complexities regarding national security).
But what are the "tax loopholes" of which you speak?

https://www.foxbusiness.com/personal-finance/wealthy-investors-find-lucrative-tax-loophole
16 Ridiculous Tax Loopholes

and many other web sites available by use of google.

And to repeat myself, I don't find it productive to get into a "this one is useful" endless debate. I want a gross receipts tax. Those who minimize expenses will keep more of their money. And that would apply to everyone across the board: corporation and individual alike. Wealthy and poor alike. How progressive it should be is a useful debate to have.

 

[Revoltingest]

https://www.foxbusiness.com/personal-finance/wealthy-investors-find-lucrative-tax-loophole
16 Ridiculous Tax Loopholes

and many other web sites available by use of google.

And to repeat myself, I don't find it productive to get into a "this one is useful" endless debate. I want a gross receipts tax. Those who minimize expenses will keep more of their money. And that would apply to everyone across the board: corporation and individual alike. Wealthy and poor alike. How progressive it should be is a useful debate to have.

Minimizing expenses applies whether we're taxed on gross or net income.
There are complexities with a gross receipts tax which is progressive,
ones which make it riskier without generating additional revenue.

Rather than read someone else's list of "tax loopholes", I'm curious
what tax deductions you find dysfunctional. This is important because
for a given amount of revenue, reducing deductions means decreasing
tax rates, & vice versa. So it should be about what comprehensive
tax policy makes sense...not about decrying all tax deductions as "loopholes".

 

[Mindmaster]

We begs to differ. "Blame the rich" is a terrif excuse.

Yeah, except that's all it is.

The rich aren't going to keep you from earning a 100k salary -- you aren't even on their radar.

You might make an argument to that when you're running a business and making a bunch already, because now you're competition.

 

[Audie]

Yes, at least for those lucky ones of us who have resources and good health for it. Though it will not help those who get kicked to the wayside and don't have energy anymore to complain. So the people complaining are mostly those who are better off.

By resources I will assume that you mean a good mind
and a sound body.

You may not know the expression,
"A Chinaman's chance" which is an
American thing.

Chinaman's chance means little or no chance at all, freighted with a particularly anti-Asian racism. It is an American idiomatic expression first attested in 1903.

Nobody in the USA now can expect anything resembling
the adversity they faced.

I expect I dont need to explain to you how it has
all turned out, or whether they got ahead by
citing complaints, ot taking from the rich

 

[Audie]

Yeah, except that's all it is.

The rich aren't going to keep you from earning a 100k salary -- you aren't even on their radar.

You might make an argument to that when you're running a business and making a bunch already, because now you're competition.

I am not having any luck explaining any of that to our
benighted and presumably low-income friends here.

 

[Nakosis]

Failing to work hard and smart does, though,
pretty much guarantee economic failure.

There just isnt anything that will help
fools. Observe what happens when people
win the lottery!

A recent example I heard, small one, was
winning about 80,000 dollars: for a paycheck-to-
paycheck guy, that is pretty good!

So what did he do? He put down payments on
TWO Meredes!!

Within the year, he lost them both, and
all t he rest of the money was gone.

Happened to my sister in law. Against my advice she bought a house, nice car, threw some expensive parties, she and her husband quit their jobs. Lost it all.

Ended up losing the husband too.

Sometimes people don't want to listen, feel they know better. I don't know if that makes them fools but maybe in need of a bit more humility to at least realize they are probably in over their heads.

 

[Orbit]

And those who just get busy and do it, with no
help visible or otherwise, well, that is just a fallacy.
Not hard work, luck.

Honestly, people in America!

You can work very hard in America and still not be able to pay your rent.

 

[Revoltingest]

You can work very hard in America and still not be able to pay your rent.

I've known some who for all appearances,
dedicated their lives to financial failure.
Can any system fix that?
Is the cost of fixing it worth taking on?