"Democracy for the rich"

[Orbit]

As if your link is in any way responsive to what I said.

But ir it is all you can say, well-

The rich are being more and more successful, which also
makes for inequality with the ones who are but middle class.

Give the immigrants a generation or two.

Note also that "Asian" takes in Pakistan and Korea.

Not remotely the same peoples.

If you had read it, you would see how it applies, and that the issues are not as simple as you think. Asians tend to immigrate already having a BA or higher, of course they do better when they get here. They also tend to come (note I said tend) from wealthier families than from poorer families. There are many reasons Asians do well, but it's because most of them, like yourself, start out with advantages. Can some rise from poverty to riches? Sure, but let's not pretend they are majority.

 

[Audie]

I have practical experience, and I read plenty of studies on this topic. One does not preclude the other. I'm simply saying that it's not as easy as you think it is; and that you can work very hard and still be unable to get ahead.

I do not believe that haggis eater or I said it is EASY.
Nor do you know how easy one or the other of us may say it is. Dunno that anything in life is supposed to be easy.

But, in any case, the point from out here is that IF
a person of sound mind and body works hard and smart,
they have a very good chance here in the USA, as
good or better than anywhere else.

At the risk of sounding like one of them anti intellecutals
you may hear about, psychology and sociology are
two of the softer of the soft sciences, and studies
therein are not always, you know, convincing.

 

[Audie]

This is another example: when the tide is going out (economically) most boats lower.

The American Middle Class Is Losing Ground

If it is so super bad, you could find a lot of people who
would sure like the chance to suffer as you or
all those you cite are suffering.

Do you have a solution in mind, other than tax the rich?

 

[Orbit]

I do not believe that haggis eater or I said it is EASY.
Nor do you know how easy one or the other of us may say it is. Dunno that anything in life is supposed to be easy.

But, in any case, the point from out here is that IF
a person of sound mind and body works hard and smart,
they have a very good chance here in the USA, as
good or better than anywhere else.

At the risk of sounding like one of them anti intellecutals
you may hear about, psychology and sociology are
two of the softer of the soft sciences, and studies
therein are not always, you know, convincing.

Anti-intellectualism is common in the US also. But facts and economic statistics that I have posted are far from "soft". This is a red herring and an attempt at deflection.

 

[Audie]

If you had read it, you would see how it applies, and that the issues are not as simple as you think. Asians tend to immigrate already having a BA or higher, of course they do better when they get here. They also tend to come (note I said tend) from wealthier families than from poorer families. There are many reasons Asians do well, but it's because most of them, like yourself, start out with advantages. Can some rise from poverty to riches? Sure, but let's not pretend they are majority.

Did you see the part where I said that link
had nothing to do with what I posted?

 

[Revoltingest]

Do you have a solution in mind, other than tax the rich?

Not directed at Orbit....
For many, taxing the rich is a solution in search of a problem.

 

[Nakosis]

I never said it's easy. Nor is success guaranteed.
And while for some hard work doesn't result in success,
this possibility doesn't define existence for most people.

Have to work smart. Smarts comes from experience. If you don't have experience you have to rely on luck. Some folks get lucky. Some people happen to be in the right place at the right time.

Luck being fickle, you'll need experience to continue to prosper.

 

[Revoltingest]

Anti-intellectualism is common in the US also. But facts and economic statistics that I have posted are far from "soft". This is a red herring and an attempt at deflection.

Anti-intellectualism can stem from skepticism that these supposed intellectuals really
are as smart as they think they are. And some believe that alone have The Truth,
making them less than amenable to reasoned arguments from another perspective.
Ultimately, an argument shouldn't be from authority...it should be cogent & evidence based.

 

[Revoltingest]

Have to work smart. Smarts comes from experience. If you don't have experience you have to rely on luck. Some folks get lucky. Some people happen to be in the right place at the right time.

Luck being fickle, you'll need experience to continue to prosper.

Everyone begins their working life with some experience.
Example....
They learn the downside of dishonesty from their parents.
And yet, I see workers ruin their career by choosing it
anyway.
One employee managed to steal several thousands of dollars
from me. She knew it was wrong. She knew the consequences
of getting caught. She did it anyway.
I fired her, & evicted her from the free apartment she had
(resident manager). She moved back in with her parents,
she became unemployed, & her son moved from a great
school district to a poor high crime one. Choices matter.
It was entirely within her power to succeed. She chose failure.
And she prolly made her son's life more difficult by blaming
rich whitey for wronging her..

She wasn't alone in making such bad decisions.
Other things workers should not do....
- Threaten co-workers & customers with violence.
- Stop caring about the job.
- Steal from tenants.
- Behave sexually inappropriately with customers.

 

[Orbit]

Anti-intellectualism can stem from skepticism that these supposed intellectuals really
are as smart as they think they are. And some believe that alone have The Truth,
making them less than amenable to reasoned arguments from another perspective.
Ultimately, an argument shouldn't be from authority...it should be cogent & evidence based.

Did I not post evidence about the economy, specifically the shrinking middle class?

 

[Orbit]

Not directed at Orbit....
For many, taxing the rich is a solution in search of a problem.

The National Association of Business Economics reports that companies didn't make substantial investments in their businesses because of the corporate tax cuts, according to their annual survey.

The Congressional Budget Office also released estimates today that the federal deficit will spike to $897 billion this year, with economic growth slowing to 2.3 percent. Analysts say that the tax cuts paid for only about 30 percent of themselves, contrary to what we were told by Trump and Republicans in Congress.

So where did all the money go? Last year, corporations plowed more than a trillion dollars into buying back shares of their own stock -- boosting executive bonuses and increasing returns for wealthy shareholders. Trickle-down economics is a cruel hoax. All of this is lost tax revenue.

 

[Revoltingest]

Did I not post evidence about the economy, specifically the shrinking middle class?

I don't recall.
But I don't dispute the existence of economic vagaries.
Certainly, I've dealt with some.
(My net worth was less than zero around 2010.)
But adversity can be overcome.
Others I know were in or facing bankruptcy too.
Work, luck & cleverness are useful.
Most people recover if they try.
Some do not.
And their situations do not define the larger reality.

 

[Revoltingest]

The National Association of Business Economics reports that companies didn't make substantial investments in their businesses because of the corporate tax cuts, according to their annual survey.

This isn't at all surprising.
A decision to invest or not invest is related to many things other than tax rates,
eg, looming market size change, asymmetric investment income tax policy,
investment alternatives. Decisions will vary from company to company, &
industry to industry, so generalizing is problematic.

The Congressional Budget Office also released estimates today that the federal deficit will spike to $897 billion this year, with economic growth slowing to 2.3 percent. Analysts say that the tax cuts paid for only about 30 percent of themselves, contrary to what we were told by Trump and Republicans in Congress.

I don't see how this relates to the relationship between personal initiative & success.

So where did all the money go? Last year, corporations plowed more than a trillion dollars into buying back shares of their own stock -- boosting executive bonuses and increasing returns for wealthy shareholders. Trickle-down economics is a cruel hoax. All of this is lost tax revenue.

Buying back stock increases income & gains for shareholders.
This is taxable.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Are we really so far from the unequal, slave-holding, elitist democracy of classical Athens as we commonly assume? Lenin thought we weren't and with reluctance I'm starting to believe him. An extended franchise is not enough to provide real and effective equality.

Discuss.

I'm inclined to agree with much of your assessment.

I would like to see greater cooperation between nations and international agencies to create a more just and equitable world.

World affairs are too often dominated by narrow agendas and the self-interest of a few at the expense of everyone.

It took two world wars to establish the United Nations and its accessory institutions. Further reform is clearly necessary. The question is whether this will come about through collective cooperation or through further crisis.

 

[Mindmaster]

Depends on the wife. Hopefully marrying someone that's better than you at handling money. Kids, just saying one should wait until they can afford the added expense.

Eh, if you wait you get too old to enjoy it. It's a real problem. It's much better if you have the juice to keep up with them when they're young.

Money isn't everything, but it helps.

Anyway, if a wife causes you financial trouble she's not a wife, just a wallet leech. You don't need one of those. If you're not getting even more financially stable by getting married there is no point, really. If your spouse isn't happy without blowing all of the savings on useless things you're not gonna be happy being broke. Not really much to discuss.

Not my problem though, wife is stingier than me, lol.

 

[Audie]

Anti-intellectualism is common in the US also. But facts and economic statistics that I have posted are far from "soft". This is a red herring and an attempt at deflection.

No doubt anti intellectualism is common.
If you are directing that at me, you are very mistaken.

As for the fish and the deflection, those, along with
some others, are what we call "facts not in evidence."

Making things up does not even qualify as soft.

 

[Mindmaster]

I am not having any luck explaining any of that to our
benighted and presumably low-income friends here.

It still remains much easier to see "everyone else" as your problem, than realize it's only you stopping yourself. Also, the exact ability to see that is a luxury of someone that's already done that. So, that's part of the problem.

However, it's not a valid response to go, "yeah it's because of rich people", when you're completely unqualified to understand that. There's so much dishonest information in that regard, and while frustrating, it's just disinformation of the most severe degree. Most rich people are self-made, they didn't start rich, for example. How does that fact illustrate the belief? Maybe the belief could be wrong?

In essence, it's a faulty belief system -- one where someone believes they cannot do something rather than they can. Truly, the only real obstacle. Such negative beliefs are no use to anyone, either to hold or in the way of defending those whom do have them. To even defend those folks, other than to realize they have a problem in their thinking that needs to be dealt with is just offering up the placebo as the cure -- and hurting them in the end.

 

[Orbit]

No doubt anti intellectualism is common.
If you are directing that at me, you are very mistaken.

As for the fish and the deflection, those, along with
some others, are what we call "facts not in evidence."

Making things up does not even qualify as soft.

Links to Pew Research are "made up"? Now you're just trolling.

 

[Woberts]

@Vouthon, I think hat you have a very good point about systemic barriers. Let's face it, alright?
The system is broken almost beyond repair. The most important question is how we fix it.
Reform, or revolt? Peaceful, or violent? Admittedly, I'm in favor of the latter. You can't peacefully fix a system that's designed to prevent you from fixing it, imo.

 

[Revoltingest]

@Vouthon, I think hat you have a very good point about systemic barriers. Let's face it, alright?
The system is broken almost beyond repair. The most important question is how we fix it.
Reform, or revolt? Peaceful, or violent? Admittedly, I'm in favor of the latter. You can't peacefully fix a system that's designed to prevent you from fixing it, imo.

Be careful there, bub.
Many people would die in the process.
First, try voting for someone other than the same old same old.
No Dems or Pubs as we've seen so far.
Let's try giving up permanent war.
See how that goes.
And then, if you still need to revolt, be very careful.
Don't attack any Revoltistanians.
We're armed, accurate, sneaky, & cowardly.