Democracy is Dead

[sun rise]

People are always exposing them.
But voting results still seem to reflect votes cast.

Polls...how trustworthy are those?

Look at fivethirtyeight's poll analysis if you care about the actual facts. If you focus on accurate pollsters, understand how statistics works with samples of various sizes, what "confidence interval" means and know that unexpected items in the news can change rankings, they're excellent.

How To Read 2020 Polls Like A FiveThirtyEighter
Pollster Ratings

 

[Nakosis]

so says Lester Thurow in his 2004 speech

and explains that representation of senators ….two per state
does not represent the voting majority

our founding fathers would be appalled
as California having soooooo many people
is represented by only two people in Senate

but the fathers did not for see California as the fifth largest
economy on the planet

the smaller states …..Republican for the most part
carry the vote in that manner

that is not the voting majority

rebuttals?

The equality of representation in the Senate is another point, which, being evidently the result of compromise between the opposite pretensions of the large and the small States, does not call for much discussion. . . .

In this spirit it may be remarked, that the equal vote allowed to each state, is at once a constitutional recognition of the portion of sovereignty remaining in the individual states, and an instrument for preserving that residuary sovereignty. . . .
U.S. Senate: The Idea of the Senate

 

[joe1776]

if we get there.....maybe some proposals about how to fix it

It can't be fixed. Democracy is inherently flawed because The People suck at electing decision-makers.

I don't have the time to explain it all now but I believe that, in the future, national policies will be decided by online expert panels. The panel-members will be selected randomly by computer from a list of people who score at the top of standardized tests of intelligence.

Their debate and discussion will be online, thus transparent, for all citizens to follow (except on national security matters).

 

[PureX]

We vote.
Candidates win office.
That's democracy (shortcomings notwithstanding).

Not if the one has little or nothing to do with the other. As is increasingly the case in the U.S.

 

[Twilight Hue]

We vote.
Candidates win office.
That's democracy (shortcomings notwithstanding).

Do you vote?

What happens when John Q Citizen only has a couple of people from a couple of entrenched parties?

 

[Revoltingest]

Look at fivethirtyeight's poll analysis if you care about the actual facts. If you focus on accurate pollsters, understand how statistics works with samples of various sizes, what "confidence interval" means and know that unexpected items in the news can change rankings, they're excellent.

How To Read 2020 Polls Like A FiveThirtyEighter
Pollster Ratings

I'll pass....not cuz I dis your source, but rather cuz polls don't matter to me.
Also, I'm organizing buildings outside, & a former tenant is stopping by
to drop off $$$$. So I'm in just to respond to alerts.

 

[Revoltingest]

What happens when John Q Citizen only has a couple of people from a couple of entrenched parties?

This comes about because the vast majority
of voters really do like the Big Two's offerings.
I vote 3rd party about 90% of the time.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

so says Lester Thurow in his 2004 speech

and explains that representation of senators ….two per state
does not represent the voting majority

our founding fathers would be appalled
as California having soooooo many people
is represented by only two people in Senate

but the fathers did not for see California as the fifth largest
economy on the planet

the smaller states …..Republican for the most part
carry the vote in that manner

that is not the voting majority

rebuttals?

Democracy has FAR bigger issues then any particular implementation of election systems. While I agree some implementations don't feel right, they are just details compared to the biggest issue of all...

And that issue starts with "social media" and the idea people took on over the years that "everyone" gets to be a reporter. Fact and bias checking has been completely removed from the equation. Massive psychological profiling in military grade psyOps of voters, for the purpose of manipulation through targetted ads with "custom" content (filled with lies that aren't double checked), as become the go-to tactic for populists and right-wingers.

This is why more and more societies are starting to shock the world with there truelly utterly dumb and idiotic voting outcomes, like Farage for europe, Brexit, Trump and similar right-wing nationalists / racists throughout the world.

Some of these, the Brexit and Trump campaign in particular, have been caught red-handed with engaging in this very illegal practice of political campaigning. But since all those naive folks get all their "news" from social nonsense like failbook and twitter, they don't actually know about it, because they don't read quality newspapers.

Personally, as a patriot and engaged citizen, I am absolutely shocked that there are still people who stare at me in ignorance when I say the words "Cambridge analytica".

They don't know the company. They don't know about the scandal they were the key player in. They don't know how Trump and Brexit are involved with that. They know even less about how that was just ONE company among many.

Democrac is absolutely under threat.
Not by the election systems. But by a massive cyberspace propaganda machine that is being run like a military grade psyOps, which is illegal, based on massive psychological profiling without user consent, which is illegal.


The real threat, ultimately comes from the privacy raping datasets gathered by the likes of Google and Facebook - even if you don't have accounts at those companies. They still know who you are. They know who your friends are, what you look like, where you live, what your hobbies are, what you like to watch on youtube, what you like to eat, etc.... And they know this, because your friends, family, collegues, ... are on those services, sharing their contacts, emails, pictures (and tagging your face), etc etc etc etc.

THAT is the threat to democracy.

And I can assure you that nationalists, populists and russia absolutely LOVE it.



EDIT: the other day, my beloved last windows phone fell on the ground and the screen got shattered. Very reluctantly, I was forced to move on to an android phone. I basically made a sport of it to remove as much of google services as possible and replace them all with msft's services. Honestly, from the moment I turned it on till I was finished with it.... I couldn't believe the many many ways Google was trying to trick me into sharing my data - any data. In some cases, it made it truelly ridiculously hard to avoid sharing anything. Certain things could not be replaced and my only options were shutting down those services completely. But no doubt they'll automagically re-enable themselves with the next android "update".

Not that it is much help off course, because even when I send an email from my non-gmail account to a gmail account - they have my address and know what I wrote to whom and they will classify it in a profile tied to that "identity". Eventhough I never granted permission to do that.

It makes me want to puke.

 

[Watchmen]

so says Lester Thurow in his 2004 speech

and explains that representation of senators ….two per state
does not represent the voting majority

our founding fathers would be appalled
as California having soooooo many people
is represented by only two people in Senate

but the fathers did not for see California as the fifth largest
economy on the planet

the smaller states …..Republican for the most part
carry the vote in that manner

that is not the voting majority

rebuttals?

Wrong. While there are two senators from each state, the number of house reps is based on population. It’s all about checks and balances, and is exactly what the founders wanted.

 

[Watchmen]

In the last Presidential election Trump lost the popular vote by 3 million - so more people wanted Clinton to be President.
That can't be right?

The election game isn’t a popularity contest. It’s about securing electoral votes. If the rules of the election had been popular vote wins then the candidates would have campaigned drastically different. We have no way of knowing who would have won the popular vote in such a scenario.

 

[Altfish]

The election game isn’t a popularity contest. It’s about securing electoral votes. If the rules of the election had been popular vote wins then the candidates would have campaigned drastically different. We have no way of knowing who would have won the popular vote in such a scenario.

That's what I said, it is undemocratic

 

[Twilight Hue]

It can't be fixed. Democracy is inherently flawed because The People suck at electing decision-makers.

I don't have the time to explain it all now but I believe that, in the future, national policies will be decided by online expert panels. The panel-members will be selected randomly by computer from a list of people who score at the top of standardized tests of intelligence.

Their debate and discussion will be online, thus transparent, for all citizens to follow (except on national security matters).

It's because people don't fight for democracy anymore. They like getting 'free' things promised to them and enjoy being told what to do and what to say.

As long as the couch is comfortable and the Doritos fresh and tasty.

 

[Twilight Hue]

The election game isn’t a popularity contest. It’s about securing electoral votes. If the rules of the election had been popular vote wins then the candidates would have campaigned drastically different. We have no way of knowing who would have won the popular vote in such a scenario.

It's a good thing. If the electorate wasn't there we would be ruled by a few major cities, and the rest of the country becomes unrepresented.

 

[Watchmen]

That's what I said, it is undemocratic

We’re a republic. Not pure democracy. If we operated under pure democracy we still don’t know who would have won. Do you understand?

 

[Watchmen]

It's a good thing. If the electorate wasn't there we would be ruled by a few major cities, and the rest of the country becomes unrepresented.

I saw a headline recently that suggested Los Angeles County alone would be more powerful than 43 of the states.

 

[sun rise]

This comes about because the vast majority
of voters really do like the Big Two's offerings.
I vote 3rd party about 90% of the time.

I don't think liking has anything to do with it for many. Like religion, many just follow their parents or vote their dislike of the other side.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't think liking has anything to do with it for many. Like religion, many just follow their parents or vote their dislike of the other side.

That would be a reason to like one party's batch of policies.

Despite all the rancor & complaining about politics & politicians,
I also see partisans valiantly defending their chosen candidates.
Think back on Obama....Dems & even many non-Dems were
gaga over him. No Prez has seen so much love since perhaps
Reagan....& this with Obama's continuing the wars.

 

[Twilight Hue]

This comes about because the vast majority
of voters really do like the Big Two's offerings.
I vote 3rd party about 90% of the time.

It's a part of the catch 22.

Go third party and let others decide between the entrenched two, or go for the entrenched one you think will do the least amount of damage.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's a part of the catch 22.

Go third party and let others decide between the entrenched two, or go for the entrenched one you think will do the least amount of damage.

Tis the quandray I face every 4 years.
(But it's not really a Catch 22, which is a self defeating choice.)

 

[idav]

This comes about because the vast majority
of voters really do like the Big Two's offerings.
I vote 3rd party about 90% of the time.

Not sure if people really like the big two. Independent is the biggest political party though most of them lean one way or another but mainly out of necessity.

As of September 2019, Gallup polling found that 31% of Americans identified as Democrat, 29% identified as Republican, and 38% as Independent.

Political party strength in U.S. states - Wikipedia