Demonizing the word liberal

[Callous]

The Jesus character in the New Testament is a liberal archetype. He is an iconoclast who teaches non-violence and elevation of love, forgiveness and self-sacrifice as higher values than tradition or dogma. He hangs out with those society rejects. He challenges both the religious and political establishment and is put to death for blasphemy.

And how does that make him a liberal? in most cases in todays society that would make him an outlaw. I know outlaws who are as conservative as the present administration. (Bush and Company) Or i should just say his assoiates.
Liberalism and Conservativism in my mind are political words.
Jesus was suppose to represent a love of man and a way to the lord not a political leader.

Sorry for the bad spelling.

 

[lilithu]

And how does that make him a liberal? in most cases in todays society that would make him an outlaw. I know outlaws who are as conservative as the present administration. (Bush and Company) Or i should just say his assoiates.
Liberalism and Conservativism in my mind are political words.
Jesus was suppose to represent a love of man and a way to the lord not a political leader.

Sorry for the bad spelling.

Liberal and conservative are not just political words. They are a way of viewing the world.

To be liberal is to put human liberty above beliefs and traditions.
To be conservative is to put beliefs and traditions above human liberty.

Before I get accused of bashing conservatives, let me explain. I am not saying that conservatives don't care about people. They do. But the conservative viewpoint is that upholding certain beliefs and traditions are what keeps us from going astray. So that in the long run, even tho individual people may be made unhappy by being subjugated to those beliefs/traditions, it is ultimately for the common good. That is why conservatives resist change, because they see change as threatening the social order which protects the common good. As opposed to the liberal viewpoint, which I said in my last post believes that human liberty will in and of itself lead to good, that we only reach our full potential when allowed the freedom to pursue our consciences. That is why liberals embrace change, because we see change as new opportunities to grow into our potential.

You don't have to take my word for it. Look up liberal and conservative in a dictionary. You'll see that the political aspects are just one of many listed meanings of each word.

 

[Callous]

Liberal and conservative are not just political words. They are a way of viewing the world.

To be liberal is to put human liberty above beliefs and traditions.
To be conservative is to put beliefs and traditions above human liberty.

Before I get accused of bashing conservatives, let me explain. I am not saying that conservatives don't care about people. They do. But the conservative viewpoint is that upholding certain beliefs and traditions are what keeps us from going astray. So that in the long run, even tho individual people may be made unhappy by being subjugated to those beliefs/traditions, it is ultimately for the common good. That is why conservatives resist change, because they see change as threatening the social order which protects the common good. As opposed to the liberal viewpoint, which I said in my last post believes that human liberty will in and of itself lead to good, that we only reach our full potential when allowed the freedom to pursue our consciences. That is why liberals embrace change, because we see change as new opportunities to grow into our potential.

You don't have to take my word for it. Look up liberal and conservative in a dictionary. You'll see that the political aspects are just one of many listed meanings of each word.

I guess this is where I will say we can disagree. Or maybe I'm not understanding.
I feel I’m not as trapped by sociological meanings of words. I do not see people as being liberal or conservative. I see them for their actions and interactions with others. They may have more or less values as determined by mainstream morality and I may view these as being more or less compassionate to other humans.
I can not allow myself to be trapped by labels of the present sociological world of good versus evil. I do believe that there are forces in the world that have a negative and positive influence as in polarity. Neither being right or wrong just being socially acceptable or not. But regardless the universe lives in polarity.
The teachings of Jesus was not just for the poor outcast citizens of the time. It was for all men (women) I do not see that as being liberal just polarized with the universe. Call me looney but maybe people are being demonized by verbage.

 

[Flappycat]

Dude, he said "follow me, or burn in Hell." That's not a charming attitude. He wouldn't be liked in modern society. He wasn't even particularly liked in his own society. His character aside, though, the conservative, fundy scum in his own society nailed him to a piece of wood and then stabbed him with a spear to make sure he died there. Why? As soon as someone threatened their position of comfort, they flew into a panic. Conservatives today dislike liberals for the same reasons: the conservatives are comfortable with how things are, and they drag their heels against or outright attack any force that threatens the status quo. For example, they wouldn't help Europe until after they realized isolationism was unsustainable; until then, they were content to let the rest of the world go to Hell as long as they were wealthy and comfortable. When the Civil Rights Movement threatened the white man's position of total social dominance, they railed against that as well. Every time America has grown, the conservatives have tried to stunt it. I consider them undesirables, and I'd vote to have them thrown out.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

And how does that make him a liberal? in most cases in todays society that would make him an outlaw. I know outlaws who are as conservative as the present administration. (Bush and Company) Or i should just say his assoiates.
Liberalism and Conservativism in my mind are political words.
Jesus was suppose to represent a love of man and a way to the lord not a political leader.

Sorry for the bad spelling.

Liberal and conservative are not just political words they represent different philosophies.
liberalism bases much of its philosophy on the teachings of Jesus.

 

[doppelganger]

in my mind are political words.

I don't view them that way. I view them as philosophical approaches to identity. The policies and political methodlogies are incident to something deeper.

 

[Callous]

You are all correct. I’m the one who is stepping outside of modern sociological status quo by not accepting the labels or ideology of extremes. My free thinking often puts me in this position.

 

[doppelganger]

You are all correct. I’m the one who is stepping outside of modern sociological status quo by not accepting the labels or ideology of extremes. My free thinking often puts me in this position.

Is it a question of who's "correct"? We are free to explore the possibility that symbols and words mean different things to different people.

It could be that all arguments about anything (other than those that concern disparate assertions about observable, external facts are) are just arguments about semantics.

 

[Callous]

Is it a question of who's "correct"? We are free to explore the possibility that symbols and words mean different things to different people.

It could be that all arguments about anything (other than those that concern disparate assertions about observable, external facts are) are just arguments about semantics.

Well put.:yes:

 

[lilithu]

You are all correct. I’m the one who is stepping outside of modern sociological status quo by not accepting the labels or ideology of extremes. My free thinking often puts me in this position.

Hi Callous, it's not important to me that you accept my definitions. What I would like is for you to understand that for some of us, when we use the word "liberal" we're not just talking about political affiliations. As I said in the beginning, we may mean different things by these words, and that may lead to misunderstandings between us when we use them.

 

[Callous]

Could be a carry over from other forums I visit. where liberal equates to crazy Democrats and Conservative equates to the righteous Republicans. I do understand there are other meanings to liberal and conservative. I just don’t always agree with the way they are used or used in reference too.
I feel the world has many excellent teachers throughout time and many people equate most of them to being liberal I merely see them as conduits of expansion. How we chose to utilize their information any be slow and methodical or rushing head.
I am neither a liberal person by the definition of conservative nor a conservative by the definition of liberal that I have seen so far here.
It was not my intent to sound like I was trying to change any ones view or perspective I simply was trying to share my view.
I would like to ask everyone however if they feel threatened or upset by someone demonizing (as it has been put) the word liberal? To me that empowers the person or group in which you seem to be in conflict with.

 

[Ciscokid]

Jesus wasn't a politician. I can't see how he would be considered conservative or liberal. When he was performing his sermon on the mount he didn't rail against slavery. Or how the rich should feed the poor.

He dealt more with the heart...and with how to lives one's life.

 

[doppelganger]

He dealt more with the heart...and with how to lives one's life.

That's why I mentioned this: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40011

 

[Flappycat]

I would like to ask everyone however if they feel threatened or upset by someone demonizing (as it has been put) the word liberal? To me that empowers the person or group in which you seem to be in conflict with.

Precisely, which is why you spit back at them instead. We got our way in the past by demonizing and slandering the conservatives, namely by characterizing them as uncouth and undereducated. The easiest route to take against them at this point is to attack their accountability. It's their weak point, so attack it relentlessly.

 

[Quiddity]

Liberal and conservative are not just political words. They are a way of viewing the world.

To be liberal is to put human liberty above beliefs and traditions.
To be conservative is to put beliefs and traditions above human liberty.

Before I get accused of bashing conservatives, let me explain. I am not saying that conservatives don't care about people. They do. But the conservative viewpoint is that upholding certain beliefs and traditions are what keeps us from going astray. So that in the long run, even tho individual people may be made unhappy by being subjugated to those beliefs/traditions, it is ultimately for the common good. That is why conservatives resist change, because they see change as threatening the social order which protects the common good. As opposed to the liberal viewpoint, which I said in my last post believes that human liberty will in and of itself lead to good, that we only reach our full potential when allowed the freedom to pursue our consciences. That is why liberals embrace change, because we see change as new opportunities to grow into our potential.

You don't have to take my word for it. Look up liberal and conservative in a dictionary. You'll see that the political aspects are just one of many listed meanings of each word.

I’m very liberal on financial issues, but very conservative on morality. Wherever that places me, I do not believe that all change is good. Growth is measured by one’s morality. So personal growth for me, might be seen otherwise by someone else. Yet, I’ll be called the intolerant one for doing the same thing liberals do. I’ve never understood this.

 

[lilithu]

Jesus wasn't a politician. I can't see how he would be considered conservative or liberal.

As had been said repeatedly already the words 'liberal' and 'conservative' do not just refer to political views.

 

[lilithu]

I’m very liberal on financial issues, but very conservative on morality. Wherever that places me, I do not believe that all change is good. Growth is measured by one’s morality. So personal growth for me, might be seen otherwise by someone else. Yet, I’ll be called the intolerant one for doing the same thing liberals do. I’ve never understood this.

Victor, I don't see liberal and conservative as limiting categories. They are general approaches. It is not unreasonable to me that as a rational, thoughtful human being you might approach fiscal and moral issues differently.

Believe it or not, (actually, you probably know me well enough by now to believe it ) I don't think that all change is good either. I probably support more change than you do, but certainly do not support change for merely its own sake. For me, change must always be measured against human welfare. If it hurts humanity, then I am against change.

As for intolerance, we're all intolerant of some things. To be completely accepting of everything is to have no morals (to be amoral, not immoral). For me, the only question is what it is that we are intolerant of.

 

[Quiddity]

Victor, I don't see liberal and conservative as limiting categories. They are general approaches. It is not unreasonable to me that as a rational, thoughtful human being you might approach fiscal and moral issues differently.

Believe it or not, (actually, you probably know me well enough by now to believe it ) I don't think that all change is good either. I probably support more change than you do, but certainly do not support change for merely its own sake. For me, change must always be measured against human welfare. If it hurts humanity, then I am against change.

As for intolerance, we're all intolerant of some things. To be completely accepting of everything is to have no morals (to be amoral, not immoral). For me, the only question is what it is that we are intolerant of.

You more then likely do. Although I think it’s much less then people might think. We just happen to talk about (which is good) the 2, 3, 4 etc. we disagree on.

 

[Valjean]

I’m very liberal on financial issues, but very conservative on morality. Wherever that places me, I do not believe that all change is good. Growth is measured by one’s morality. So personal growth for me, might be seen otherwise by someone else. Yet, I’ll be called the intolerant one for doing the same thing liberals do. I’ve never understood this.

You might consider me conservative both on financial issues and morality, Victor. I wouldn't even know how to use a credit card, for example.
I'm also quite strict on morality: Be nice, do no harm and don't lie -- otherwise all things are permitted.
And I, too, avoid change for change's sake.

Does this make me a conservative or a liberal?.

 

[PureX]

"Liberalism" and "progressivism" are overlapping Venns. We use one or the other depending on our intended focus. We are both.

I'm no sissy. We are, as always, the avant garde.
I'm proud to be a member of the dreaded ACLU, Amnesty International, Union of Concerned Scientists and a half-dozen other liberal organizations.
(I'm not technically 'card-carrying' only inasmuch as the cards were cluttering up my wallet and were useless in ATMs or stores, so I discarded them).

Excellent organizations, all.