Demons - Is There Evidence They Exist?

[nPeace]

Faith is not "belief on insufficient evidence". That is a common biased misconception adhered to by both theists and atheists, alike. Faith is choosing to trust (act as if) something that one hopes to be so, will turn out to be so, even though one cannot currently know this to be so.

"Belief", on the other hand, is the presumption that what one believes to be so, is so, based on whatever evidence one has.

That's not faith, as defined prior to the centuries of Old English.... or earlier.
To understand what fait in God is, one need to travel back to the first century CE, and beyond.

 

[Stevicus]

Why? WHY, is the question.

It's just how people are. Either they evolved that way, or someone created them that way.

 

[nPeace]

I'll await that patiently.

Uh. Seriously? Have you seen LUCA? Was it recorded? Where can I go sit watch Dark Matter on HDTV?
Why then would anyone want to see a video of demons? Shaking my head in disbelief

 

[PureX]

I believe God is a mystery to those who reject his means of communication.

Yeah. That's why I'm not a 'believer'. It's a closed mind trap.

 

[PureX]

That's not faith, as defined prior to the centuries prior to Old English.... or earlier.
To understand what fait in God is, one need to travel back to the fist century CE, and beyond.

We all live our lives acting of faith. Even the atheists that claim they don't. It's not a mystery. In fact, it's how we live with the mystery.

 

[nPeace]

It's just how people are. Either they evolved that way, or someone created them that way.

Or, they became that way... you call it evolved. Which would mean they were not that way originally - not their nature... and I don't mean they were some single celled amoeba like organism.

That would explain why there is that "good side", existing in humanity.
If we go in opposite directions from here, we can never meet, and our conversation is pointless. There will always be a clash.

Would you agree?

 

[Stevicus]

Or, they became that way... you call it evolved. Which would mean they were not that way originally - not their nature... and I don't mean they were some single celled amoeba like organism.

That would explain why there is that "good side", existing in humanity.
If we go in opposite directions from here, we can never meet, and our conversation is pointless. There will always be a clash.

Would you agree?

I would agree that it's possible that humans became the way they are. Generally, I tend towards the viewpoint that whatever made or makes humans what they are was through natural phenomena through the observable processes which occur here within our reality.

However, I don't discount the possibility that we could have been created by some sort of sentient entity, a being which is generally referred to as "God." From what I've been told, it seems that many believe that God created and designed the entire universe and processes of nature which we can observe all around us. Let us assume, for the purposes of this discussion, that this is the case, and that God created angels and demons as well. Why would God create demons? Is it to test humans' resolve to see if we can still remain "good" in a world seemingly filled with "evil"? Is that your contention?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Bible students recognize the increased lawlessness, and problems as evidence of demonic interference.
Thus, despite what skeptics and unbelievers say, there is evidence of demonic activity.

Bible is no evidence for me. What Bible students see is irrelevant to me.
So, what is the evidence apart from what you find in Bible?
Humans and even our close relatives, the Chimps, indulge in lawlessness frequently.
Selfishness, desire to dominate is a primate trait.

 

[nPeace]

I would agree that it's possible that humans became the way they are. Generally, I tend towards the viewpoint that whatever made or makes humans what they are was through natural phenomena through the observable processes which occur here within our reality.

I understand. We all choose a view that seems correct to us.
I have reason to believe what the Bible says about the origin of life, and the evidence continues to accumulate in favor of that.

However, I don't discount the possibility that we could have been created by some sort of sentient entity, a being which is generally referred to as "God." From what I've been told, it seems that many believe that God created and designed the entire universe and processes of nature which we can observe all around us. Let us assume, for the purposes of this discussion, that this is the case, and that God created angels and demons as well. Why would God create demons? Is it to test humans' resolve to see if we can still remain "good" in a world seemingly filled with "evil"? Is that your contention?

I comment you open-mindedness. That is also evolving... or rather, eroding away. Not in all people though. Thankfully.

The Bible does say that God created spirit beings like himself, called angels. However, Satan and the demons are like the modified version on that BMW that left the manufacturing company one way, but was transformed by the owner.
In other words, God didn't create Satan and the demons. Those angels became such - Satan, meaning resistor; Devil, meaning slanderer; Demon, meaning evil, or debased.

So, while there are some people who believe God created Satan and the demons to use them, I don't understand the Bible to support that view.
I think people have their ideas, which they strongly believe the have scriptural basis for.
Of course, they will say this of me, but I believe the Bible isn't as confusing as people try to make it out to be..

Of course, it's not possible to prove what 2 Corinthians 4:3, 4 says, but I believe there is evidence for it.

 

[nPeace]

Bible is no evidence for me. What Bible students see is irrelevant to me.
So, what is the evidence apart from what you find in Bible?
Humans and even our close relatives, the Chimps, indulge in lawlessness frequently.
Selfishness, desire to dominate is a primate trait.

You'll need to give me some basis for the Bible being irrelevant, since I think it holds up fine as a foundation of knowledge to build on.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I believe God is a mystery to those who reject his means of communication.

What does that mean? Are you claiming understanding of God? Are you claiming to be His means of communication?

I'm curious what you are saying here.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Uh. Seriously? Have you seen LUCA? Was it recorded? Where can I go sit watch Dark Matter on HDTV?
Why then would anyone want to see a video of demons? Shaking my head in disbelief

I have seen the evidence that supports the conclusion of a common ancestry. I haven't seen any evidence that supports the conclusion of demons.

As well, there is evidence for "dark matter". Where can I see demons and watch them on HDTV?

 

[Alien826]

That's because you question you asked was based on an inaccurate understanding of belief, and faith. When you can come to understand the difference, and can then rephrase your question, we can then answer it. Although, I believe that if you more clerly understood the difference between faith and belief, you would no longer need to ask your question.

Well, @Trailblazer managed to answer it. It's not that important though, just a thought I had. If you want to answer it using your own definition of faith, and maybe explaining how my ignorance of your definition of these words prevents me from answering my own question, go ahead. Or, don't. I'm OK either way.

 

[Stevicus]

I understand. We all choose a view that seems correct to us.
I have reason to believe what the Bible says about the origin of life, and the evidence continues to accumulate in favor of that.

I was originally raised Catholic, although for a variety of reasons best left to another topic, I started to look at things differently over time. I tend to look at things more on face value and on a "matter of fact" level.

I comment you open-mindedness. That is also evolving... or rather, eroding away. Not in all people though. Thankfully.

The Bible does say that God created spirit beings like himself, called angels. However, Satan and the demons are like the modified version on that BMW that left the manufacturing company one way, but was transformed by the owner.
In other words, God didn't create Satan and the demons. Those angels became such - Satan, meaning resistor; Devil, meaning slanderer; Demon, meaning evil, or debased.

So, God created the angels, but some of them were modified or somehow had the means and wherewithal to change themselves. Does that suggest that God created or allowed the processes to take place which caused this transformation? In other words, at the time God created them, did God know that some of them were going to rebel, and which ones? Using your BMW analogy, someone at the factory could find a vehicle with a defect and pull it off the line until it's repaired.

So, while there are some people who believe God created Satan and the demons to use them, I don't understand the Bible to support that view.
I think people have their ideas, which they strongly believe the have scriptural basis for.
Of course, they will say this of me, but I believe the Bible isn't as confusing as people try to make it out to be..

Of course, it's not possible to prove what 2 Corinthians 4:3, 4 says, but I believe there is evidence for it.

Is it possible that God could have stopped Satan and the demons before they even got started? God could have nipped it in the bud right then and there?

But that aside, assuming that there is a demonic presence actively operating among us, then is it safe to assume that God is aware of this and knows there are demons influencing and interfering with the lives of God's children? Why allow this? Why let it go on? Are humans just hapless participants, as if we're NPCs in a video game where the demons have all the cheat codes?

In terms of identifying manifestations of evil in human society today, even that can be a bit dicey in practice. Do people choose to be evil, or is something just messed up inside their heads?

 

[Alien826]

Uh. Seriously? Have you seen LUCA? Was it recorded? Where can I go sit watch Dark Matter on HDTV?
Why then would anyone want to see a video of demons? Shaking my head in disbelief

It was just a joke that I responded to in kind. I don't think anyone expects you provide a video of demons.

Something that I'm sure you understand though, is that most of us don't take this as seriously as you do. To most modern people demons are a hangover from medieval beliefs that very few people place much credence on. So that joke maybe reflected that.

 

[Alien826]

I would agree that it's possible that humans became the way they are. Generally, I tend towards the viewpoint that whatever made or makes humans what they are was through natural phenomena through the observable processes which occur here within our reality.

The following makes sense to me as an explanation.

We developed from "lower" forms of life that were very good at surviving. That's pretty much how evolution works, if you don't survive, you don't evolve. What we see as selfishness and greed were to them how they survived. Then we started living in communities where survival depended more on working together. Thus co-operation, and the emotions and feelings that drive it, became a much bigger factor for survival. Unfortunately evolution works by adding to, or subtracting from the previous model. You don't get a whole different creature that replaces the previous one. So we still have the old selfishness and greed, with co-operation added on top of it. Whether we will eventually "breed out" these primitive features remains to be seen. I have my doubts.

The Biblical model is the opposite of course. We started perfect and degenerated from there.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

The following makes sense to me as an explanation.

We developed from "lower" forms of life that were very good at surviving. That's pretty much how evolution works, if you don't survive, you don't evolve. What we see as selfishness and greed were to them how they survived. Then we started living in communities where survival depended more on working together. Thus co-operation, and the emotions and feelings that drive it, became a much bigger factor for survival. Unfortunately evolution works by adding to, or subtracting from the previous model. You don't get a whole different creature that replaces the previous one. So we still have the old selfishness and greed, with co-operation added on top of it. Whether we will eventually "breed out" these primitive features remains to be seen. I have my doubts.

The Biblical model is the opposite of course. We started perfect and degenerated from there.

I have always wondered what perfect means or meant. Obviously, we ate. We could be swayed by talking snakes. We could bite the hand that fed us. I'm not sure I would include any of that on a list of perfection. Maybe it has nothing to do with the body, but the spirit, and others just throw in the body without reason or to make the stories more palatable to feelings.

 

[nPeace]

I was originally raised Catholic, although for a variety of reasons best left to another topic, I started to look at things differently over time. I tend to look at things more on face value and on a "matter of fact" level.

You and more than half a billion other.

So, God created the angels, but some of them were modified or somehow had the means and wherewithal to change themselves. Does that suggest that God created or allowed the processes to take place which caused this transformation? In other words, at the time God created them, did God know that some of them were going to rebel, and which ones? Using your BMW analogy, someone at the factory could find a vehicle with a defect and pull it off the line until it's repaired.

Again, some persons believe that God had foreknowledge of these event, but my study of the Bible has not led me to that view.
I understand from the Bible that God has control over his ability to foreknow, unlike a robot that is programed with limited knowledge and ability.

Is it possible that God could have stopped Satan and the demons before they even got started? God could have nipped it in the bud right then and there?

God could have "peeped" to see what everyone does, yes.
The Bible shows clearly that God does not do that (Exodus 16:4; Genesis 22:1, 10-12), but seeks to know only what directly impacts with accomplishing his will.

For example, God detailed everything related to the Messiah, since the Messiah is directly linked to God's means of vindicating his sovereignty, and restoring paradise on earth, as he purposed.

But that aside, assuming that there is a demonic presence actively operating among us, then is it safe to assume that God is aware of this and knows there are demons influencing and interfering with the lives of God's children? Why allow this? Why let it go on? Are humans just hapless participants, as if we're NPCs in a video game where the demons have all the cheat codes?

You ask some very serious, and important questions.
We can talk about this via PM, if that's okay with you,

It's safe to say God is aware of Satan. After all, Satan is God's chief opposer, and all who take God's side.
This is one reason, some conclude that Satan is a tool of God.
People tend to come up with these ideas because they do not understand why God would allow any Satan to exist, and suffering, and for so long.

In terms of identifying manifestations of evil in human society today, even that can be a bit dicey in practice. Do people choose to be evil, or is something just messed up inside their heads?

Good question.
It's also a question that requires more than a straightforward answe.

This takes us back to the OP, thanks for that.
However, I'll answer later, since I have to take a break.

 

[nPeace]

It was just a joke that I responded to in kind. I don't think anyone expects you provide a video of demons.

Something that I'm sure you understand though, is that most of us don't take this as seriously as you do. To most modern people demons are a hangover from medieval beliefs that very few people place much credence on. So that joke maybe reflected that.

Then you forgive me for not getting the 'joke', nor sharing in it.

 

[nPeace]

The following makes sense to me as an explanation.

We developed from "lower" forms of life that were very good at surviving. That's pretty much how evolution works, if you don't survive, you don't evolve. What we see as selfishness and greed were to them how they survived. Then we started living in communities where survival depended more on working together. Thus co-operation, and the emotions and feelings that drive it, became a much bigger factor for survival. Unfortunately evolution works by adding to, or subtracting from the previous model. You don't get a whole different creature that replaces the previous one. So we still have the old selfishness and greed, with co-operation added on top of it. Whether we will eventually "breed out" these primitive features remains to be seen. I have my doubts.

The Biblical model is the opposite of course. We started perfect and degenerated from there.

Yes, there are two different "explanation", and both cannot be right, since they are opposites.
Of course, both sides see problems with the other's.