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Denigration of Sociopolitical Messages in Art and Entertainment: A Tool of Stagnation

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Recently, I was reading about the history of 20th-century music and the influence of artists like Bob Dylan, the Beatles, and Black Sabbath on musical, cultural, political, and social trends.

Dylan was perhaps at the vanguard of the above list when it came to music that tackled the civil rights movement. Multiple songs he wrote, most notably The Times They Are A-Changin', would become anthems of social justice activism for many years to come. The Beatles, meanwhile, helped to transform British pop culture in more than one way. Black Sabbath opposed war in an outspoken, vivid manner that, again, would have musical and social echoes for many years after.

Contrast this with today's trends, where movies, music, and other forms of art and entertainment that carry elaborate sociopolitical messages are demonized and denigrated by many ardent critics for being "woke," "propaganda," "pandering," or any other negatively charged label. It should be clear to most who listen to some of the above artists' work that they did have clear sociopolitical causes, took sides in multiple cultural and political disputes, and pushed for change where they thought it necessary. They were far from being fence-sitters or apolitical figures; they actively influenced and helped to shape the culture around them.

When did this trend of denigrating sociopolitical motifs and awareness-raising efforts within art and entertainment originate? When did a subset of society transition from their predecessors' admiration of Citizen Kane and To Kill a Mockingbird to expressing outrage over so-called "woke agenda," anti-racist activism, and political stories?

It seems to me that said denigration is, more often than not, a tool enabling intellectual and moral stagnation in society. Some of the voices that most loudly proclaim support for "dialogue" in society and politics are at the forefront of demonizing and mocking specific messages without the slightest attempt to discuss them elaborately. This is not dialogue; it's partisan outrage.

As far as I can see, we don't progress our understanding of the ever-changing sociopolitical landscape by demanding that all of our movies, music, and games be cleansed of strongly sympathetic messaging or explicit political commentary. After all, Bob Dylan's songs in support of the civil rights movement didn't claim to tread a middle ground between "both sides," nor did Black Sabbath meekly protest the Vietnam War. They screamed their protest at the top of their lungs and mixed it with heavy-metal instrumentals for good measure.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Recently, I was reading about the history of 20th-century music and the influence of artists like Bob Dylan, the Beatles, and Black Sabbath on musical, cultural, political, and social trends.

Dylan was perhaps at the vanguard of the above list when it came to music that tackled the civil rights movement. Multiple songs he wrote, most notably The Times They Are A-Changin', would become anthems of social justice activism for many years to come. The Beatles, meanwhile, helped to transform British pop culture in more than one way. Black Sabbath opposed war in an outspoken, vivid manner that, again, would have musical and social echoes for many years after.

Contrast this with today's trends, where movies, music, and other forms of art and entertainment that carry elaborate sociopolitical messages are demonized and denigrated by many ardent critics for being "woke," "propaganda," "pandering," or any other negatively charged label. It should be clear to most who listen to some of the above artists' work that they did have clear sociopolitical causes, took sides in multiple cultural and political disputes, and pushed for change where they thought it necessary. They were far from being fence-sitters or apolitical figures; they actively influenced and helped to shape the culture around them.

When did this trend of denigrating sociopolitical motifs and awareness-raising efforts within art and entertainment originate? When did a subset of society transition from their predecessors' admiration of Citizen Kane and To Kill a Mockingbird to expressing outrage over so-called "woke agenda," anti-racist activism, and political stories?

It seems to me that said denigration is, more often than not, a tool enabling intellectual and moral stagnation in society. Some of the voices that most loudly proclaim support for "dialogue" in society and politics are at the forefront of demonizing and mocking specific messages without the slightest attempt to discuss them elaborately. This is not dialogue; it's partisan outrage.

As far as I can see, we don't progress our understanding of the ever-changing sociopolitical landscape by demanding that all of our movies, music, and games be cleansed of strongly sympathetic messaging or explicit political commentary. After all, Bob Dylan's songs in support of the civil rights movement didn't claim to tread a middle ground between "both sides," nor did Black Sabbath meekly protest the Vietnam War. They screamed their protest at the top of their lungs and mixed it with heavy-metal instrumentals for good measure.

A few key differences between then and now:

1. Time - Today's "woke" crowd are way late to the party. Most of the legwork of the Civil Rights Movement was already done more than 50 years ago.

2. Related to item 1, the people who supported Civil Rights back then had to fight the entire establishment and ruling class, whereas today, all the "woke" crowd is doing is mopping a few isolated pockets of resistance. It's like finding a Japanese soldier from WW2 on an isolated island in 1974 and then claiming to have won World War 2 singlehandedly. Where's the "heroism" in that?

3. It's always different if you're on the side of the establishment fighting against the common people, as opposed to being on the side of the common people fighting against the establishment.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
A few key differences between then and now:

1. Time - Today's "woke" crowd are way late to the party. Most of the legwork of the Civil Rights Movement was already done more than 50 years ago.

2. Related to item 1, the people who supported Civil Rights back then had to fight the entire establishment and ruling class, whereas today, all the "woke" crowd is doing is mopping a few isolated pockets of resistance. It's like finding a Japanese soldier from WW2 on an isolated island and then claiming to have won World War 2 singlehandedly. Where's the "heroism" in that?

3. It's always different if you're on the side of the establishment fighting against the common people, as opposed to being on the side of the common people fighting against the establishment.

These are good points; however, I should clarify that my arguments include all kinds of sociopolitical messages, not merely ones supported by the establishment or relating to the racial struggles that date back to the civil rights movement.
 

AlexanderG

Active Member
People celebrate activists and speaking truth to power today, as they did in the past. Certain groups that favor the status quo denigrate these activists today, as they did in the past.

I'm not really seeing a big difference. If anything, the main difference is the medium through which political messages and activist memes are conveyed. People don't listen to music for political inspiration in the same way as they did in the past. Instead they use social media, which didn't exist in the 1960's.

Today, we listen to music to relax. We tweet, create YouTube videos, or post in comment threads to change minds. Threads like this one. :)
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
Can someone on here please tell me what 'woke' means?
I may misunderstand but to me it sounds like a badge of honour. It appears to encapsulate compassion, concern, understanding and many other positive traits. Have I missed something or should I continue and order my "Proud to be woke" t-shirt?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
When did this trend of denigrating sociopolitical motifs and awareness-raising efforts within art and entertainment originate? When did a subset of society transition from their predecessors' admiration of Citizen Kane and To Kill a Mockingbird to expressing outrage over so-called "woke agenda," anti-racist activism, and political stories?

Isn't this the result of the right objecting to progressive thought? We've been seeing derisive references to progressives for decades now - political correctness, social justice warrior, woke. It's all intended to push back at the expansion of rights envisioned by the left. The right objects to "critical race theory" (racial history), and so they demean it. They object to LGBTQ tolerance, so they call it wokeness. They disapprove of immigrants and gun control, so they demean those who are more inclusive.

Authoritarian people tend to be enemies of avant garde art. They burn books and withdraw public funding for socially active art and artists.

Incidentally, I was surprised to see you include Balck Sabbath among socially active protest bands. I'm 68 now, and heard a bit as a teen. I only know three songs - Iron Man, War Pigs, and Paranoid. I never saw them as a protest band. For What It's Worth, Society's Child, Get Together, Eve of Destruction, Billy Jack, and Ohio are songs I associate with that - not Ozzy.

It seems to me that said denigration is, more often than not, a tool enabling intellectual and moral stagnation in society.

Isn't that the point - to put the brakes on social progress?

Can someone on here please tell me what 'woke' means?

It's a derogatory and ironic term for progressives, mocking them for their more inclusive vision. By ironic I mean that the term implies that the woke are living in a dream world, the way the word bad can be used to mean good.
 

Secret Chief

Vetted Member
Is such criticism simply more visible because of the internet?

Is the popular music industry more of an industry these days, meaning "risky" artists can't break into it through the old, traditional channels?
 

PureX

Veteran Member
The easiest, most effective way of killing those creative calls for social self-reflection and change is to steal their thunder (their sounds, images, gravitas, etc.) and use them to sell chicken nuggets, underarm deodorant, and phony, disingenuous political promises. If an artist were to write something akin to one of Bob Dylan's social anthems, today, it would just sound trite and calculated. In fact, the whole genre of popular music; rock, folk, country, whatever, ... has become trite and calculated and totally aimed at profiteering in almost every instance. Social reflection or calling for change is just another act one puts on to play the role of the idealist troubadour on stage, ... for the ticket sales, clothing lines, record sales and medial deals.

Greed poisons everything and everyone it touches. And it reduces everything of value to the meaningless measure of dollars and cents. Young people in the 1960s were still too naive to be quite this cynical and hopeless. And their oppressors were as yet a bit too unsophisticated to know how to shut them up. But that's not so, anymore. The weapons of greed and selfishness have been unleashed, and the marching idealists of the late 60s soon became that Gordon Gekko's of the 1980s. The same people that were crying for equality and justice and peace in their 20s were selling out the middle class for a mcmansion in a closed community in their 40s. That's how profoundly the cultural acceptance of greed and selfishness had changed them.

Even the idea of "protesting" now days sounds quaint and superficial. And it nearly always devolves into looting, anyway, because everything's about getting the goodies, now days. And we all know that no politician anywhere is going to pay the least bit of attention any of it, anyway.

Music, movies, painting, dance, plays, literature, ... every form of human expression you can imagine is now being engaged in for the purpose of profit. And everyone knows it. Everyone expects it. So no matter what the song claims to be about, we all know it's really about the money. And the fame. It's about playing on our thoughts and emotions to get us for fork over some cash for a concert ticket, or for an audio file, or for an article about the singer in some media mag. Money, money, money, it's all about the money. Greed is the great equalizer. It turns everything it touches into crap. And especially so, our idealism.
 
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ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Can someone on here please tell me what 'woke' means?
I may misunderstand but to me it sounds like a badge of honour. It appears to encapsulate compassion, concern, understanding and many other positive traits. Have I missed something or should I continue and order my "Proud to be woke" t-shirt?
Woke was a term coined during civil rights movements. It is AVF slang for being wary of or alert to systemic discrimination, especially when it disguises itself as reasonable middle or the 'rational, level headed position.'
Made to counter 1930's Jim Crow movements and later 'I'm just asking questions everone else is scared to, no need to get emotional' demagogues like David Duke.

Today it's used negatively both legitimately as criticism for performative, superficial or overzealous ally-ship (largely replacing SJW) or corporate 'woke washed' media and illegitimately as a dogwhistle by people trying to downplay existing discrimination as illegitimate or not worthy of concern.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
Woke was a term coined during civil rights movements. It is AVF slang for being wary of or alert to systemic discrimination, especially when it disguises itself as reasonable middle or the 'rational, level headed position.'
Made to counter 1930's Jim Crow movements and later 'I'm just asking questions everone else is scared to, no need to get emotional' demagogues like David Duke.

Today it's used negatively both legitimately as criticism for performative, superficial or overzealous ally-ship (largely replacing SJW) or corporate 'woke washed' media and illegitimately as a dogwhistle by people trying to downplay existing discrimination as illegitimate or not worthy of concern.
What is 'AVF'?
So, it is Right Wing nonsense? T-shirt ordered.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
What is 'AVF'?
So, it is Right Wing nonsense? T-shirt ordered.
Sorry that got autocorrected. AAVE or African-American Vernacular English.

In its modern insult form it's a mixture of legitimate concerns of performativity and right wing nonsense.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
When did this trend of denigrating sociopolitical motifs and awareness-raising efforts within art and entertainment originate? When did a subset of society transition from their predecessors' admiration of Citizen Kane and To Kill a Mockingbird to expressing outrage over so-called "woke agenda," anti-racist activism, and political stories?
At least in America nothing has really changed except the labels and words that are used. Today it's called woke, yestercenturies called it effeminate.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
At least in America nothing has really changed except the labels and words that are used. Today it's called woke, yestercenturies called it effeminate.
Yep. Neil Gaiman had an interview recently where he talked about people seeing Sandman on Netflix calling him woke, because it has gay and gender non-conforming characters. Said how when he wrote it 35 years ago it was called deviance and then politically correct and now woke.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Yep. Neil Gaiman had an interview recently where he talked about people seeing Sandman on Netflix calling him woke, because it has gay and gender non-conforming characters. Said how when he wrote it 35 years ago it was called deviance and then politically correct and now woke.
And if course accusations of communist dominated much of the 20th century. "European decadence" has been thrown around.
It's like "identity politics." Nothing about it is new, nothing has changed, the only differences are the faces behind it and the words they use.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Recently, I was reading about the history of 20th-century music and the influence of artists like Bob Dylan, the Beatles, and Black Sabbath on musical, cultural, political, and social trends.

Dylan was perhaps at the vanguard of the above list when it came to music that tackled the civil rights movement. Multiple songs he wrote, most notably The Times They Are A-Changin', would become anthems of social justice activism for many years to come. The Beatles, meanwhile, helped to transform British pop culture in more than one way. Black Sabbath opposed war in an outspoken, vivid manner that, again, would have musical and social echoes for many years after.

Contrast this with today's trends, where movies, music, and other forms of art and entertainment that carry elaborate sociopolitical messages are demonized and denigrated by many ardent critics for being "woke," "propaganda," "pandering," or any other negatively charged label. It should be clear to most who listen to some of the above artists' work that they did have clear sociopolitical causes, took sides in multiple cultural and political disputes, and pushed for change where they thought it necessary. They were far from being fence-sitters or apolitical figures; they actively influenced and helped to shape the culture around them.

When did this trend of denigrating sociopolitical motifs and awareness-raising efforts within art and entertainment originate? When did a subset of society transition from their predecessors' admiration of Citizen Kane and To Kill a Mockingbird to expressing outrage over so-called "woke agenda," anti-racist activism, and political stories?

It seems to me that said denigration is, more often than not, a tool enabling intellectual and moral stagnation in society. Some of the voices that most loudly proclaim support for "dialogue" in society and politics are at the forefront of demonizing and mocking specific messages without the slightest attempt to discuss them elaborately. This is not dialogue; it's partisan outrage.

As far as I can see, we don't progress our understanding of the ever-changing sociopolitical landscape by demanding that all of our movies, music, and games be cleansed of strongly sympathetic messaging or explicit political commentary. After all, Bob Dylan's songs in support of the civil rights movement didn't claim to tread a middle ground between "both sides," nor did Black Sabbath meekly protest the Vietnam War. They screamed their protest at the top of their lungs and mixed it with heavy-metal instrumentals for good measure.
I used to wrongly fight against politics in art. Like an idiot
Despite actually knowing better because I would at the same time watch endless video essays explaining the politics in various artistic movements throughout the ages. And the politics of certain artists, mostly classical literature. Maybe that conditioned me to think of political art as being in the past, I dunno. I was dumb lol

But I see cycles repeating themselves now. What was once considered groundbreaking is now blase and sometimes even outdated. The same crop of “anti” types try to claim that X is promoting evil onto the next generation or whatever. Just like they did with well I’m pretty sure all of the folks you mentioned back in the day lol

Are we doomed to endlessly repeat ourselves is my question lol
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I used to wrongly fight against politics in art. Like an idiot
Despite actually knowing better because I would at the same time watch endless video essays explaining the politics in various artistic movements throughout the ages. And the politics of certain artists, mostly classical literature. Maybe that conditioned me to think of political art as being in the past, I dunno. I was dumb lol

But I see cycles repeating themselves now. What was once considered groundbreaking is now blase and sometimes even outdated. The same crop of “anti” types try to claim that X is promoting evil onto the next generation or whatever. Just like they did with well I’m pretty sure all of the folks you mentioned back in the day lol

Are we doomed to endlessly repeat ourselves is my question lol
Well, I think one has to make a very important distinction between art that happens to express a political point of view, and art being used to promote a political point of view. Because in my experience it's the difference between art, and really bad art.

If I am an artist that paints on canvas, let's say, my job is to express and capture my experience of the world in such a way that someone looking at that painting in some other place and time can share in that experience, with me. Art is a way for us to sort of 'be in each other' for a moment. To see and feel and comprehend the world through each other.

But if when I start to paint my painting, I am doing so with the intent to tell the world that we need to save the whales, then the result is not going to be a very good work of art. Because it'll mostly be about saving the whales. Which has little to do with my experience of the world at that moment. And you, as a viewer come to view my painting, expecting to share in an experience of the world through my eyes, heart and mind, and all you get is an admonishment to save the whales, will have been "cheated" of an art experience.

So as I see it as; we can either make art, or we can save the whales. But if we try to do both, we are likely not to accomplish either. It's why art that proselytizes religion, politics, sex, or whatever else is almost always lousy art. It's trying to serve two very different functions at the same time and ends up serving neither of them very well.

That's not to say it's impossible. But it's extremely rare to see it done successfully.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Well, I think one has to make a very important distinction between art that happens to express a political point of view, and art being used to promote a political point of view. Because in my experience it's the difference between art, and really bad art.

If I am an artist that paints on canvas, let's say, my job is to express and capture my experience of the world in such a way that someone looking at that painting in some other place and time can share in that experience, with me. Art is a way for us to sort of 'be in each other' for a moment. To see and feel and comprehend the world through each other.

But if when I start to paint my painting, I am doing so with the intent to tell the world that we need to save the whales, then the result is not going to be a very good work of art. Because it'll mostly be about saving the whales. Which has little to do with my experience of the world at that moment. And you, as a viewer come to view my painting, expecting to share in an experience of the world through my eyes, heart and mind, and all you get is an admonishment to save the whales, will have been "cheated" of an art experience.

So as I see it as; we can either make art, or we can save the whales. But if we try to do both, we are likely not to accomplish either. It's why art that proselytizes religion, politics, sex, or whatever else is almost always lousy art. It's trying to serve two very different functions at the same time and ends up serving neither of them very well.

That's not to say it's impossible. But it's extremely rare to see it done successfully.
Lol reminds me of the environmental movies that came out in the 90s aimed mostly at kids.
It was mainly because of “global warming” as it was called then.
Good intentions sure. But many messages were painfully delivered lol
Though I suppose some had good animation, like Ferngully

I largely agree that artists pushing messages often make poor art. But that’s also a natural consequence of artists being employed, isn’t it?
A lot of good artists work for companies who want their art to express certain messages, for a variety of reasons. Religious propaganda, promoting the company’s feel good PR, morals for kids etc.
And to be fair sometimes such products are fondly remembered by audiences all the same.

Besides so called “great art” often was dismissed at the time or was otherwise really bawdy. So I mean it’s going to be a mixed bag in any era and comprised of politics of all kinds.
 
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PureX

Veteran Member
Lol reminds me of the environmental movies that came out in the 90s aimed mostly at kids.
It was mainly because of “global warming” as it was called then.
Good intentions sure. But many messages were painfully delivered lol
Though I suppose some had good animation, like Ferngully

I largely agree that artists pushing messages often make poor art. But that’s also a natural consequence of artists being employed, isn’t it?
A lot of good artists work for companies who want their art to express certain messages, for a variety of reasons. Religious propaganda, promoting the company’s feel good PR, morals for kids etc.
And to be fair sometimes such products are fondly remembered by audiences all the same.

Besides so called “great art” often was dismissed at the time or was otherwise really bawdy. So I mean it’s going to be a mixed bag in any era and comprised of politics of all kinds.
We can see politics in anything if we are so inclined, just as we can see sex or religion in anything if we are so inclined. And these days a lot of people are so inclined. But art is very rarely intended to address those areas of engagement, and when it does, it's usually bad art. They more likely show up tangentially as the artists are members of society, and do have a political, religious, and sexual presence in the world. And that we can sometimes see expressed in their artworks as a part of the whole.
 
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