Denominations. So what?

[pearl]

No, what progressives want is not "fuller meaning"

You do realize that those whom you refer to as 'progressives' are the Council Fathers. Furthermore, liturgical renewal did not begin with Vatican II.

While the reasons for changes in the Instruction Generalis of the Missale Romanum, editio typica tertia, are at one level part of an ongoing process of revision, it is a revision which is faithful to the theological vision and directives of the Council Fathers. If we approach from this theological vantage point, our implementation of this reform will be derived from a liturgical-theological reflection rather than rubrical adjustements or minor modifications. The Instruction Generalis is part of an ongoing process of liturgical renewal and represents an organic continuity with the theological vision of the Council Fathers.

The Instruction itself recalls that the Fathers of the Second Vatican Council were continuing the work begun by Pope Saint Pius V, who in the promulgation of the Roman Missal wrote that its goal was to give to the liturgy the vigor it had in the tradition of the Fathers. The succeeding Roman Pontiffs directed their energies during the subsequent centuries to ensure that the rites and liturgical books were brought up to date and when necessary clarified for example the outstanding work of Pope Benedict XIV.
The twentieth century opened with the establishment of a special Commission for a general reform of the liturgy by Pope Saint. Pius X.
The Liturgy has always undergone modifications throughout the centuries, there is only one unchangeable text and that is the text of sacred Scripture.
I sincerely hope that you take the time to read all of 'The Theological Vision of Sacrosanctum Conciliumand the Roman Missal'
The Theological Vision of Sacrosanctum Concilium and the Roman Missal

 

[pearl]

Experiments?

The Church in the US was given permission by Paul VI to postpone the sacrament of Reconciliation until the 5th grade which meant children would receive Eucharist until then without a personal confession. The pope rescinded it after maybe 8 years.

 

[metis]

But are the Pope's statements assimilated by those in the pews?

At least in my wife's Catholic church it definitely is. As a Jew, I've not only had no difficulty being accepted, I've also been involved in various programs, including educational ones. No one has pressured me to convert; no one has suggested I shouldn't be involved; and the priest knows where I'm coming from and why because I wanted to get his OK before getting involved.

Of course I cannot vouch for other Catholic churches.

 

[DavidFirth]

Catholics are made aware of what the pope thinks. Most agree, some don't.

 

[Glaurung]

You do realize that those whom you refer to as 'progressives' are the Council Fathers. Furthermore, liturgical renewal did not begin with Vatican II.

That's the thing, what you see as 'liturgical renewal' I see as liturgical iconoclasm. Sorry, but the difference between two liturgies is night and day and that's ignoring the innovations I've seen growing up such as rock music and even 'liturgical' dance. (And yes, it's as cringe worthy as it sounds). I've even been to churches were the tabernacle has been sequestered off to an out of the way room for reasons that just escape me. Is having to genuflect at passing it too much effort?

I'm not against change (I was born in '89, I grew up knowing nothing but the Ordinary Form) but having now experienced the traditional liturgy (I even altar serve it) I could never go back. Yes of course, the Tridentine Mass developed over centuries, but slow development over centuries and a top down imposition of a highly stripped down liturgy (which is often filled with abuse) are two entirely different things. Catholicism as I experienced it growing up in Australia is practice entirely without substance. It's a practice that seems to appeal almost exclusively to aging women (because frankly no self-respecting adolescent male is impressed with "They will know we are Christians by our love with extra tambourine".

Whatever the intentions of the liturgical renewal, the Ordinary Form at least as it currently exists in the majority of Australian parishes isn't worth the time. I left the Church for years in part because the tradition as I experienced it growing up isn't fundamentally serious. The traditional mass however, oozes gravity and reverence and thus it is supremely attractive. It doesn't teat me like a slow child.

As far as the Ordinary Form goes they could at least turn the altars back around, bring back more traditional hymns, get rid of the guitars and bring back communion railing. (Is it that much to ask that one should kneel when receiving Christ Himself?). And the thurible could see a little more use. (Even if it's just for solemnities).

Also as an extension of my position on communion railing, extraordinary ministers should be just that, extraordinary. You don't need five laymen to distribute communion when there's only thirty or so people at the Mass to begin with. It's silly, unnecessary and borderline blasphemous.

Renewal, relevance and whatever else; I've experienced their fruits first hand and they're not all that great. Meanwhile my faith is nourished when I attend the traditional liturgy, which somehow makes me bigoted, rigid and a throwback. (The irony of people who came to age in the 60's, 70's and even 80's criticizing young people who attend more traditional forms of the liturgy as being out of date never seems to occur to them).

 

[pearl]

I've even been to churches were the tabernacle has been sequestered off to an out of the way room for reasons that just escape me.

That's why it is imperative that one seeks to understand the Church's reasoning through its official documents. I can speak only of the Church in the US, my own diocese and parish. At first there was, from some, the complaint that they were being turned into a 'bunch of Protestants'. But with the realization that the history exists long before Trent, back to the early liturgies of the 3rd and 4th centuries, and that we remain this SAME Church, the fears and resentment passed away for most.

 

[Shiranui117]

A pope is entitled to his personal opinion, but that's neither here or there because I never said otherwise. I wouldn't call for cross denominational cooperation (on cultural issues) if I did not believe that Protestants aren't legitimate Christians. (Although there are iffy cases). Re-read my post. I even praise sincere Protestants as sometimes putting Catholics to shame.

I said that Protestants are schismatics and almost always heretical. They have neither valid sacraments or orders and that is binding on Catholics to accept no matter how friendly to some Protestants a Catholic may be. A faithful Catholic cannot ignore the serious differences between Protestant and Catholic doctrine. That doesn't mean I hate you, it means I'm not going to dilute my faith for the sake of facilitating fuzzy notions of ecumenicism.

At least in Orthodoxy, and I think in Catholicism too, Protestants are heterodox, but they're not heretics. A heretic is one who chooses a false belief after having come to know the truth. A heterodox is someone who has always believed something other than what the Church teaches.

Just thought I'd throw out that clarification.

 

[metis]

At least in Orthodoxy, and I think in Catholicism too, Protestants are heterodox, but they're not heretics.

Yep, same in Catholicism.

 

[Glaurung]

At least in Orthodoxy, and I think in Catholicism too, Protestants are heterodox, but they're not heretics. A heretic is one who chooses a false belief after having come to know the truth. A heterodox is someone who has always believed something other than what the Church teaches.

This is a valid point, though in my deference I said most Protestants are in material, not formal heresy. I think we're making the same distinction with different terms.

 

[Shiranui117]

This is a valid point, though in my deference I said most Protestants are in material, not formal heresy. I think we're making the same distinction with different terms.

True. I'll admit I'm a lot more familiar with Byzantine than Latin terminology.