"Denying" Jesus

[Bob Dixon]

Personally, I think Muslims understand Jesus for the most part far better than any Christian (other than Messianic Jews) with some issues perhaps on his nature as the "Son of G-d". Muslims and Messianic Jews should be friends.

To be fair, that issue comes from a misunderstanding, an assumption that the "Son of God" thing is to be taken literally, like when the Greek gods had "sons".

 

[Hope]

"Those who have faith in him" are apparently more than just those who even claim that he is Christ. To have faith in him means obeying his teachings.

Yes.

Your argument that believing Jesus to be Christ is somehow a pre-requisite to obeying all his teachings does not work unless you believe that only those who obey all of Jesus's teachings believe that Jesus is Christ, therefore 99% of CHristians don't really believe Jesus is Christ then.

Perhaps qualifying it to "most of Jesus' teachings," this is probably, sadly, true.

Faith precedes the works, so if one has no works, it is questionable there is any faith.

 

[Shermana]

What kinds of "works" exactly? Name some specifically that only a Faith-having Christian would have that an Atheist or Buddhist wouldn't.

 

[CMike]

I stronly deny jesus as any divine being. G-D commands jews to deny him. G-D said in multiple passages that you are to worship no one but him. To do otherwise is a grave sin.

In fact G-D says in Deutoromy that if someone tries to get you to worship anyone but the one G-D, that person should be killed.

Hear O Israel, the L-rd is our G-D, the L-ord is ONE (Deut)

I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God. ...so that from the rising of the Sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:5-6)

...I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me. (Isaiah, 46:9)

... so that all the peoples of the Earth may know that the Lord is God and that there is no other. (1 Kings, 8:60)

Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the Earth; for I am God, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:22)

This is what the Lord says…"Surely God is with you, and there is no other; there is no other God." (Isaiah, 45:14)

...The Lord our God, the Lord is one. (Deuteronomy, 6:4)

You are my witness--the words of Hashem--and My servant, whom I have chosen, so that you will know and believe in Me, and understand that I am He; before me nothing was created by a G-D, and after Me it shall not be (Isaiah 43:10)

... O Lord; no deeds can compare with Yours. All the nations You have made will come and worship before You, O Lord; they will bring glory to Your name. For You are great and do marvelous deeds; You alone are God. (Psalms, 86:8-10)

O Lord ...You alone are God over all the kingdoms of the Earth. You have made heaven and Earth. (Isaiah, 37:16)

... all kingdoms on Earth may know that You alone, O Lord, are God. (Isaiah, 37:20)

This is what the Lord says—your Redeemer, Who formed you in the womb: I am the Lord, Who has made all things, Who alone stretched out the heavens, Who spread out the Earth by Myself. (Isaiah, 44:24)

Since ancient times no one has heard, no ear has perceived, no eye has seen any God besides You, who acts on behalf of those who wait for Him. (Isaiah, 64:4)

For this is what the Lord says—He Who created the heavens, He is God; He Who fashioned and made the Earth, He founded it; He did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited—He says: "I am the Lord, and there is no other." (Isaiah, 45:18)

...Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no god apart from Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but Me. (Isaiah, 45:21)

See now that I Myself am He! There is no god besides Me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal... (Deuteronomy, 32:39)

...you may know there is no one like the Lord our God. (Exodus, 8:10)

O Lord... there is no god like You in heaven above or on Earth below... (1 Kings, 8:23; 2 Chronicles, 6:14)

Then Asa called to the Lord his God and said, "Lord, there is no one like You to help the powerless against the mighty..."(2 Chronicles, 14:11)

I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from Me there is no savior. (Isaiah, 43:11)

There is no one like You, O Lord, and there is no god but You, as we have heard with our own ears. (1 Chronicles, 17:20; 2 Samuel, 7:22)

There is no one holy like the Lord; there is no one besides You; there is no strength like our God. (1 Samuel, 2:2)

His wisdom is profound, His power is vast. Who has resisted Him and come out unscathed. (Job, 9:4)

For You are great and do marvelous deeds; You alone are God. (Psalms, 86:10)

Praise Him for His acts of power; praise Him for His surpassing greatness. (Psalms, 150:2)

You alone are the Lord. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the Earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship You. (Nehemiah, 9:6)

They will say of Me, "In the Lord alone are righteousness and strength."... (Isaiah, 45:24)

You were shown these things so that you might know that the Lord is God; besides Him there is no other. (Deuteronomy, 4:35)

... Is there any god besides Me? No, there is no other strong one; I know not one. (Isaiah, 44:8)

This is what the Lord says—I am the first and I am the last; apart from Me there is no god. (Isaiah, 44:6)

Who has done this and carried it through, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, the Lord—with the first of them and with the last—I am He." (Isaiah, 41:4)

O Lord, are You not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One… (Habakkuk 1:12)

I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that men will revere Him. (Ecclesiastes, 3:14)

Before the mountains were born or You brought forth the Earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting You are God. (Psalms, 90:2)

Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever…(Psalms, 45:6)

For this is what the high and lofty One says—He Who lives forever, Whose name is holy...(Isaiah, 57:15)

and said: "Praise be to the name of God for ever and ever; wisdom and power are His." (Daniel, 2:20)

He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end. (Ecclesiastes, 3:11)

…For He is the living God and He endures forever… His dominion will never end. (Daniel, 6:26)

Praise be to the Lord … from everlasting to everlasting… (1 Chronicles, 16:36)

But You, O Lord, are exalted forever. (Psalms, 92:8)

The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever. (Isaiah, 40:8)

 

[CMike]

It seems that G-D disagrees

Deuteronomy 4:2 Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.​

Deuteronomy 13:12: See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.​

Proverbs 30:6 Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.​

A person who has accepted Jesus as their Lord and saviour is no longer bound by the law, whom the son sets free is free indeed, faith is accredited not works, works are counted as debt before God, how was abraham saved by faith.If you are relying on your ability to keep the law to be saved you have no chance, Once you are saved you will try your best to be a good person but you will fail but God sees you as righteous because he sees you through the righteousness of Jesus our chosen high priest, he paid the price for all our sins once and for all, for now there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus, we do our best out of love not by trying to measure up to a law that was intended to direct you to the saviour you have already accepted.why does Paul complain he does all the things he shouldn't yet struggles to do the things that are right and seldom manages, was paul saved?

 

[F0uad]

Say:

He is God, the One and Only;
God, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is nothing like unto Him.

 

[Thief]

I might agree that placing a crown on His head to be inappropriate.

When the topic came up, He would always leave the proximity.

When His own disciples came asking position in the kingdom....
'You know not what you ask...such things are not mine to give.'

Of Himself He did say...
'...brother and fellow servant....'

But that doesn't mean you won't see Him...later on.
And what if you must answer for the things you have said against Him?

 

[paarsurrey]

One may deny Jesus being a god or son of god; that does not mean one denies truthful Jesus son of Mary; a Jew who sincerely followed the teachings of Moses.

 

[thorman]

Fascinating post Shermana. To answer your original question it would seem that these men had been teaching that Christ's name was a pass to do whatever they wanted. I think Romans 6:1-2 sums it up nicely- " What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?" (Romans 6:1-2 ESV) It's easy for me in my day-to-day life to be complacent of my own spiritual shortcomings whether they are big or small. It's easy for me to say to myself that I am "covered" through God's grace without being aware of how often I come short of His glory. Hopefully I can continue to grow and become more and more a son that my Father can be proud of. Thankyou again for beginning a thought-provoking thread.

 

[jtartar]

Jude 1:4



The word "Deny" :

Strong's Greek: 720. ???????? (arneomai) -- to deny, say no

The context of "Deny" here can't just mean to "Deny that Jesus is Lord" because they are changing "grace" (a concept that only those who follow Jesus would accept) into a "license for immorality". The word "Deny" can have a few meanings. It CAN mean to "deny that you know someone". However:

Luke 9:23





You must deny that you exist? Nope. Therefore, the word "Deny" can also mean "refusing" and "not do what is wanted/resisting". Like "He denied her request". Therefore, Jude is NOT necessarily implying those who deny that Jesus is Lord.....

For another example, Acts 7:35 has it as "refused" and "disowned"


Now this can be interpreted as "denying" but its more or less "refusing" in the sense of "resisting".

And in Hebrews 11:24 it inescapably means "refuse".




How can anyone who "changes grace into a license for immorality" deny that Jesus was Lord if they believe in the concept of grace to begin with? Is the only possible context thus referring to those who Deny Jesus's teachings that they are REFUSING his actual teachings?

Were there those who believed that Jesus was Lord while "denying"/"refusing" his teachings back in the day? Are there to this day? Do they represent the grand majority?


Are there religions and people who have said basically turned the doctrine of Grace into a license to sin of sorts, with one justification or another for said doctrine? What would "immorality" mean in Jude's context exactly? Is Jude saying they are all godless and condemned?

Shermana,
To deny, as written in the Holy Scriptures means to deny that Jesus was who he said he was, The Christ, The Son of God, and our redeemer from sin.
Notice that Jesus told the Samaritan woman that he is the Christ, John 4:25,26. Jesus said the same at Matt 16:13-17.
Jesus said that if his listeners did not believe that he was the Christ they would die in their sins, John 8:23,24.
There has been given among men ONE name by which we MUST get saved, Jesus, Acts 4:12. Jesus is the mediator between God and man, 1Tim 2:5,6.
John said that anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ is an Antichrist, 1John 2:22,23, 4:1-3, 2John 7. So, it seems that anyone who denies the Christ does not have the Father either. This seems to mean that anyone who does not have faith in Jesus has no chance at everlasting life, John 3:16-18.

 

[Shermana]

The meaning of the word depends on the context it is used. In the case of Jude, to deny Christ means to deny what he taught. To deny what Christ taught is to deny the Father who sent him. Context is key, Jude is referring to those who turn grace into a license for licentesiousness, which is how most Christians regard their grace to this day, I have heard many Christians who think they are saved as an excuse to commit debauchery. In other places, to deny Christ does in fact mean to deny his Messiahhood, but in Jude's case it is de facto referring to his teachings and the proto-concepts of Grace in which it was used to sanction sin.

 

[455SinceFriday]

Everyone has denied Christ, all are guilty. Part of the process is understanding your position.
This defines us well as humans, spiritually speaking.

Rev 3:17
You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked

 

[Avoice]

I looked at my e-Sword program and searched NT for the word "deny" It depends on the author and the book but Strong's Concordance numbers below show 2 words with very small deviations:

G533
ἀπαρνέομαι
aparneomai
ap-ar-neh'-om-ahee
From G575 and G720; to deny utterly, that is, disown, abstain: - deny.

The above is the more emphatic and is partly based on G720 below.

ἀρνέομαι
arneomai
ar-neh'-om-ahee
Perhaps from G1 (as a negative particle) and the middle of G4483; to contradict, that is, disavow, reject, abnegate: - deny, refuse.

I have no idea if this will help or hinder your conversation.

 

[Ahmed99]

It may be mentioned in Obadiah and elsewhere that God sends saviors, but these are always saviors or deliverers for the people in a physical sense for physical earthy struggles or battles. Jesus is always referred to as the Savior, the One and Only Savior who saves people from sin and saves them spiritually for eternity.

I realize you have a different perspective, but it makes perfect sense to me for the text to say that those who creep into groups of believers turn the grace of God into lewdness and denial because these are those who don't believe in submitting their lives to Christ the first place, they are only use the message of grace as an excuse for their own selfish, sinful desires.

I am new and like your response even if I am sure I am in wrong group, but must say this is interesting and I liked your respectful reply.

 

[Faybull]

So you're saying it's not necessary to try to understand the intended meaning of a passage or that grammar is unnecessary or that the passage is too vague? What do you mean "shades" of meaning? I'd think there's only so many meanings and that the author intended something very specific. I don't think you understood what I said in the OP that those who were being claimed to deny Jesus were already probably Christians because they were following the "Grace" doctrine to begin with. Luke 9:22 is not referring to people who already believe in Jesus. Jude 1:4 is. Why don't you give your interpretation of everything involved in Jude 1:4. Who are the ones who are "turning the doctrine of grace into a license to sin"? Obviously it's not referring to the Jews and High Priests who rejected Jesus as Christ altogether. This was the point of the OP in itself, your definition of "deny" is exactly what I'm trying to say is NOT the case in Jude 1:4.

It's one thing to recognize that Jesus was the Christ, even heretics did that, it's another to actually obey his teachings, which is the context of the passage in question. Jesus specifically said in Matthew 7:22-23, there will be many who call him "lord" but he will reject them because they are "doers of Lawlessness" who do not obey His Father's will.

How can it be wrong to deny Jesus is Christ, when Jesus says that the ones saying he is Christ are deceivers?


*The tares are alongside the wheat*