• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Determinism and Responsibility

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
So many people seem most afraid of determinism because they feel that it makes nobody responsible for the actions. I am not talking about God determining everything, as that does, in fact, make us not responsible for our action. I am talking about unconscious desires / fears and reactions in our brain that make us act a certain way. Well, let me lay out some simple ways to look at this, and then I am sure they will be debated.

- Even though we are driven by things we are not conscious of, and reactions in our brain make our decision before we are aware of them, those are both still "us". Your subconscious desires, fears, etc and your brain are still you. Right there is why an individual should be held responsible for their actions in itself.

- Let us look at a serial killer. Chances are that there is something in their past that had affected them in ways they are not even fully aware of, a trigger that set them off, they have been conditioned to work a certain way. Yes, many unfortunate and even understandable things turn people into serial killers. How does this excuse them of their actions at all though? We are a product of our brains. It makes us aware, makes us think, makes us have a personality and our individuality, so if your brain "chooses", and you are your brain, you have chosen to kill.

- How about simply punishing acts because they are wrong? The first point is quite simple and the second point is probably the weakest. But how about the fact that if person X kills person Y, even though the killing is a product of things they are not even consciously aware of, they have still killed. We could get into setting up a logical system of morality here, but that would get us far too off topic haha.

Now, obviously we are talking retributivism rather than rehabilitation here, as you are unlikely to recondition the mind of a serial killer or rapist. But that is the point, if we stop being idiots about this perhaps we can accomplish more than paying to keep people locked up for years just to release them to offend again.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

idav

Being
Premium Member
When people are caused to do things there are many choices that the individual chose that lead them to their current path. Though sometimes innocent children are corrupted and this is what I have the hardest time with but regardless I wouldn't recommend going after the parents of the serial killer. A person is responsible for their own choices even if they had little to no control left.

Punishing just to punish doesn't accomplish much. It should be a punishment that is a step in the right direction even if it just locking up some monster away from innocent people. If judges just slapped people silly any time they did something wrong it wouldn't really help even though it would make court tv more fun to watch.

Actually that might actually help, making the punishment public, like the slapping people silly thing. :)
 

Polarbear

Active Member
So many people seem most afraid of determinism because they feel that it makes nobody responsible for the actions. I am not talking about God determining everything, as that does, in fact, make us not responsible for our action. I am talking about unconscious desires / fears and reactions in our brain that make us act a certain way. Well, let me lay out some simple ways to look at this, and then I am sure they will be debated.

- Even though we are driven by things we are not conscious of, and reactions in our brain make our decision before we are aware of them, those are both still "us". Your subconscious desires, fears, etc and your brain are still you. Right there is why an individual should be held responsible for their actions in itself.

How do you diffrenetiate between human beings causing damage and natural phenomena such as earthquakes, tsunamies, etc. within a deterministic worldview? After all it's still the wave that causes all the damage even though it has no controll or knowledge of what it's doing.

- Let us look at a serial killer. Chances are that there is something in their past that had affected them in ways they are not even fully aware of, a trigger that set them off, they have been conditioned to work a certain way. Yes, many unfortunate and even understandable things turn people into serial killers. How does this excuse them of their actions at all though? We are a product of our brains. It makes us aware, makes us think, makes us have a personality and our individuality, so if your brain "chooses", and you are your brain, you have chosen to kill.

We are not our brains, not in a deteministic worldview atleast, there our conciousness is just a little part of our brain and has no control over what it does.

Now, obviously we are talking retributivism rather than rehabilitation here, as you are unlikely to recondition the mind of a serial killer or rapist. But that is the point, if we stop being idiots about this perhaps we can accomplish more than paying to keep people locked up for years just to release them to offend again.

Can you please clarify that last part? Are you advocating the death penalty as to not "waste time" rehabilitating the incurable?
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
So many people seem most afraid of determinism because they feel that it makes nobody responsible for the actions. I am not talking about God determining everything, as that does, in fact, make us not responsible for our action. I am talking about unconscious desires / fears and reactions in our brain that make us act a certain way. Well, let me lay out some simple ways to look at this, and then I am sure they will be debated.

- Even though we are driven by things we are not conscious of, and reactions in our brain make our decision before we are aware of them, those are both still "us". Your subconscious desires, fears, etc and your brain are still you. Right there is why an individual should be held responsible for their actions in itself.

If that's what you are, then you're not in control of yourself, because there are things controlling those.

- Let us look at a serial killer. Chances are that there is something in their past that had affected them in ways they are not even fully aware of, a trigger that set them off, they have been conditioned to work a certain way. Yes, many unfortunate and even understandable things turn people into serial killers. How does this excuse them of their actions at all though? We are a product of our brains. It makes us aware, makes us think, makes us have a personality and our individuality, so if your brain "chooses", and you are your brain, you have chosen to kill.

Our brain doesn't choose, it is the neurons that chooses for our brain. Our neurons don't choose, it is the chemical reactions set off that chooses for our neurons. Our chemical reactions don't choose, it is the (whatever causes the chemical reactions) etc.

Another example is, if a tree falls on a man and kills him, it wasn't the tree that fell on the man, it was the wind. It wasn't the wind, it was the clouds that caused the wind. It wasn't the clouds, it was the cooling of earth's surface. etc.

As for the killer, look at it this way, if you are sleep walking and shoot a man, you're still guilty, but did you do it? Not really.

- How about simply punishing acts because they are wrong? The first point is quite simple and the second point is probably the weakest. But how about the fact that if person X kills person Y, even though the killing is a product of things they are not even consciously aware of, they have still killed. We could get into setting up a logical system of morality here, but that would get us far too off topic haha.

But would you punish a tree if it fell on a man, killing him?

Now, obviously we are talking retributivism rather than rehabilitation here, as you are unlikely to recondition the mind of a serial killer or rapist. But that is the point, if we stop being idiots about this perhaps we can accomplish more than paying to keep people locked up for years just to release them to offend again.

Are you saying we shouldn't let them back out or what? I'm not sure I understand.
 

Polarbear

Active Member
Wait, what? Determinism is the natural result of us being our minds. (Which are built from our brains)

It is true that our conciousness is a product of our brain, but it's only a small part of it, as it was stated in the OP in a determinstic worldview much of our actions are determined uncousciously (by our brain), hence "we" are not our brains, we are our conciousness which is only a small part of the brain.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
So many people seem most afraid of determinism because they feel that it makes nobody responsible for the actions. I am not talking about God determining everything, as that does, in fact, make us not responsible for our action. I am talking about unconscious desires / fears and reactions in our brain that make us act a certain way. Well, let me lay out some simple ways to look at this, and then I am sure they will be debated.

- Even though we are driven by things we are not conscious of, and reactions in our brain make our decision before we are aware of them, those are both still "us". Your subconscious desires, fears, etc and your brain are still you. Right there is why an individual should be held responsible for their actions in itself.

- Let us look at a serial killer. Chances are that there is something in their past that had affected them in ways they are not even fully aware of, a trigger that set them off, they have been conditioned to work a certain way. Yes, many unfortunate and even understandable things turn people into serial killers. How does this excuse them of their actions at all though? We are a product of our brains. It makes us aware, makes us think, makes us have a personality and our individuality, so if your brain "chooses", and you are your brain, you have chosen to kill.

- How about simply punishing acts because they are wrong? The first point is quite simple and the second point is probably the weakest. But how about the fact that if person X kills person Y, even though the killing is a product of things they are not even consciously aware of, they have still killed. We could get into setting up a logical system of morality here, but that would get us far too off topic haha.

Now, obviously we are talking retributivism rather than rehabilitation here, as you are unlikely to recondition the mind of a serial killer or rapist. But that is the point, if we stop being idiots about this perhaps we can accomplish more than paying to keep people locked up for years just to release them to offend again.
The controversy about determinism and responsibility rests in that responsibility is given and taken where intent has lead to action. Subconscious desires, fears, etc. act on you, but they do not act with intent. Where is intent being inserted into this picture you've drawn?
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Wait, what? Determinism is the natural result of us being our minds. (Which are built from our brains)
Wait, what? Are you saying there is an "us" who resides in our minds, apart from the mind that is built from our brains?

Well, okay then...
 
Now, obviously we are talking retributivism rather than rehabilitation here, as you are unlikely to recondition the mind of a serial killer or rapist. But that is the point, if we stop being idiots about this perhaps we can accomplish more than paying to keep people locked up for years just to release them to offend again.

This is a key question, is how much people can change. If all, including the most hardened criminals, are capable of true reform, then every effort must be made to do that.

It is my belief that killing someone for a crime doesn't really solve the problem. They continue to live in the spiritual realm, and continuing on causing grief and pain for themselves and others. In my book God has a plan to redeem everyone, as his children, so it is not for us to consign somebody to the dustbin.
 
Top