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Determinism: the holy grail of Academia.

Curious George

Curious George

Veteran Member
JustWondering said:
The problem with your reasoning is that you ignore that each persons individual characteristics didn't just magically manifest out of nothingness. Genetics and environment determine what a person choses to do. We live in a cause and effect universe, therefore we live in a universe where past events inevitably cause specific future events.
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Slight correction, we live in a universe where past events inevitably correlate with specific future events.
 
Repox

Repox

Truth Seeker
JustWondering said:
The brain is a physical organ that exists in a cause and effect universe. I do not believe in the supernatural. If something exists it is part of the natural universe. Everything we have examined and studied in nature acts according to rules and laws. If the universe were a completely chaotic mess where the current laws of nature didn't exist life wouldn't even exist. Your idea of "free will" suggests we can just spontaneously make decisions that are untethered to the ordered universe we are a part of (not separate from), that is not supported by all the evidence we have for an ordered, cause and effect universe.

If you were starving and offered a choice between two food items to eat, one you can't stand the taste of (just the thought of eating it makes you gag) and the other being your favorite food in the world, which food would you choose? Why? What determined what your favorite food is?
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I would, of course, avoid eating the unpleasant food, unless I choose to be different. Like most people, I have personal preferences for a variety of different foods. There is evidence for other species being motivated by instincts rather than advanced brain functions characteristic of human species, but humans are in another category of behavior due to symbolic communication abilities. You can propose humans to be determined, but the evidence is not there. Evidence indicates humans engaged in decision making based on a variety of different choices in all areas of activity. Where you find conformity you find humans willfully adhering to values and norms of the group. As an example of breaking group norms, you might have an efficient military group of men fighting a war, and then, having discovered their commanders are traitors, the men stop fighting and turn on them. You find conformity in all areas of activity as well as rebellion or deviant behavior. There is no conclusive evidence for humans being determined.
 
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Repox

Repox

Truth Seeker
JustWondering said:
The problem with your reasoning is that you ignore that each persons individual characteristics didn't just magically manifest out of nothingness. Genetics and environment determine what a person choses to do. We live in a cause and effect universe, therefore we live in a universe where past events inevitably cause specific future events.
Click to expand...
I never said humans are not influenced by their environment. I said humans make freewill choices based on the situation or circumstances. The evidence is clear, people are not all alike, and it is because they make freewill choices in the variety of different daily activities in which they are engaged. Twins are good examples. You would think they would be very similar based on genetics, but evidence says otherwise. Each twin makes freewill choices with different outcomes depending on areas of activity. History is an excellent example of so many different choices people make depending on culture, nationality, economic circumstances and almost any imaginable situation or circumstance. Then, we have do many different mass movements with unpredictable outcomes. Humans make decisions depending on need fulfillment, and no person, unless mentally deranged on handicapped, is incapable of making freewill choices.

Where is the evidence for humans being determined?
 
JustWondering

JustWondering

Jerk
Repox said:
I would, of course, avoid eating the unpleasant food, unless I choose to be different. Like most people, I have personal preferences for a variety of different foods. There is evidence for other species being motivated by instincts rather than advanced brain functions characteristic of human species, but humans are in another category of behavior due to symbolic communication abilities. You can propose humans to be determined, but the evidence is not there. Evidence indicates humans engaged in decision making based on a variety of different choices in all areas of activity. Where you find conformity you find humans willfully adhering to values and norms of the group. As an example of breaking group norms, you might have an efficient military group of men fighting a war, and then, having discovered their commanders are traitors, the men stop fighting and turn on them. You find conformity in all areas of activity as well as rebellion or deviant behavior. There is no conclusive evidence for humans being determined.
Click to expand...

If we do not function according to the rules of the universe than you are suggesting we make decisions using magic, that is completely untethered to the universe we live in. It is like saying computers don't function according to the way their microprocessors work and the software they are loaded with. The human brain is just an extremely complex organic computer. The ONLY evidence for how humans function is what has been physically observed, examined, and experimented upon. We are physical beings. The brain is a physical organ.

You need to explain how you think humans make decisions. If our decisions are not the result of the neurological, biochemical reactions of a physical brain to stimuli from our environment, where are our decisions coming from? Magically and spontaneously appearing out of nowhere?
 
JustWondering

JustWondering

Jerk
Repox said:
I never said humans are not influenced by their environment. I said humans make freewill choices based on the situation or circumstances. The evidence is clear, people are not all alike, and it is because they make freewill choices in the variety of different daily activities in which they are engaged. Twins are good examples. You would think they would be very similar based on genetics, but evidence says otherwise. Each twin makes freewill choices with different outcomes depending on areas of activity. History is an excellent example of so many different choices people make depending on culture, nationality, economic circumstances and almost any imaginable situation or circumstance. Then, we have do many different mass movements with unpredictable outcomes. Humans make decisions depending on need fulfillment, and no person, unless mentally deranged on handicapped, is incapable of making freewill choices.

Where is the evidence for humans being determined?
Click to expand...

I never said everyone is alike. Twins share genetics, but I do not believe their DNA is exactly the same and they both have different experiences which over time can result in different personalities.

You need to explain what you think freewill is and where it comes from. There is zero evidence to suggest that we function counter to the rules of the universe we are a part of. The universe we are a part of has rules one of which is that events are caused by previous events. Actual facts and evidence for how the universe works points directly at a predetermined universe. All you have to support your worldview is your emotional distaste at the thought that your thoughts and decisions are predetermined by past events/factors, that your freewill is an illusion.
 
JustWondering

JustWondering

Jerk
Curious George said:
Like the probabilistic position of a particle?
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Our universe obviously functions according to rules/laws, if it didn't the scientific method wouldn't work and we wouldn't be typing on keyboards to communicate via the internet right now. Some theories currently put forth for how the universe may work have yet to be proven and sound more like a new brand of mysticism than science.

Curious George said:
Or the notion of free will?
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What is your notion of free will? If our decisions are not dependent on the neurological, biochemical reactions of our brain to stimuli from our environment, how are our decisions made, magic?

Curious George said:
Which route do you want to follow. But first, would you agree that it is better to say that events correlate to other events rather than events cause other events?
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No.
 
osgart

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
free will is a result of understanding as it applies to motivation of the heart of cares. How well you understand something, what that understanding is and how it affects you will determine your level of free will.

Free will is the ability to make positive logical choices at command of will. To be able to command your will in any situation, and make a positive decision. It is an achievement to have free will. The nature of what you love, your convictions, beliefs, and faith in those things, and the accuracy of how true those things are will determine whether you have free will or less than free will.

a lot of people are ignorant, or highly conditioned, and have low level convictions, so they are more determined than those with free will.

a lot of people are evil, and that also makes them deterministic.

just hearted, compassionate and discerning people are the ones with free will because they have peace.

There are different kinds of free will too. command of choice of who you are as a person , command of choice of making positive natural choices.

Science will never have anything to say about it, so long as they consider humans to be strictly material, physical entities.

environmental factors and circumstances, and influences are to be compared with one's inner strength of conviction and their confidence, desire and faith in true convictions.
 
JustWondering

JustWondering

Jerk
osgart said:
free will is a result of understanding as it applies to motivation of the heart of cares. How well you understand something, what that understanding is and how it affects you will determine your level of free will.

Free will is the ability to make positive logical choices at command of will. To be able to command your will in any situation, and make a positive decision. It is an achievement to have free will. The nature of what you love, your convictions, beliefs, and faith in those things, and the accuracy of how true those things are will determine whether you have free will or less than free will.

a lot of people are ignorant, or highly conditioned, and have low level convictions, so they are more determined than those with free will.

a lot of people are evil, and that also makes them deterministic.

just hearted, compassionate and discerning people are the ones with free will because they have peace.

There are different kinds of free will too. command of choice of who you are as a person , command of choice of making positive natural choices.

Science will never have anything to say about it, so long as they consider humans to be strictly material, physical entities.

environmental factors and circumstances, and influences are to be compared with one's inner strength of conviction and their confidence, desire and faith in true convictions.
Click to expand...

So how people think and feel emotions is just some kind of magical mumbo jumbo to you? Have fun with that.
 
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