Detroit police chief says armed citizens deter crime

[InformedIgnorance]

Actually even if looking at the key;
-With recent there is no way to know if it is gun related of course
-With homicides some significant portion are likely to involve guns
-With shootings most if not all are likely to involve guns (more exotic projectile weapons excluded)
-With suspicious deaths a far smaller portion may involve guns (for example scenarios that might be suicide by gun but appear suspicious) likely negligible
-With developing there is no way to know if it is gun related of course

It really does make it look like the majority of major crime there involves guns - which is why I said it would be nice to see more detail so as to make it less skewed.

 

[Revoltingest]

Okay. Well, it applies to everyone, including the OP in this instance, which I why I mentioned the lack of evidence for the claim made.

I'm not sure if I would be considered an anti-gun posters. I don't have interest in taking anyone's guns away, at least without extremely good cause. On the other hand, I want nothing to do with them and find the fetishism incredibly disgusting.

"Fetishism" is the wrong word, unless you're a metaphor wielding wag (which is OK). It's a guy thing (sometimes a gal thing too) to obsess over cool mechanical things, eg, cars, tools, trucks, knives, guns, watches, pens. (Yes, I know pen collectors, & I even went to a pen show out of curiosity. As you might suspect, it's a really weird crowd. I fit right in.) But guns also have sporting & political components which really inspire the fanatical gearhead. I'd be even more of one were it not for the fact that they're pricy little things which require much more security than collecting heavy iron such as....
[youtube]2Zg6nuuXbuw[/youtube]
First run of the Snow at Coolspring - YouTube
Mike & the guys have been working 20 years on getting this beast up & running.

 

[Assad91]

The punishment does not fit the crime. That's my point. I don't own one single item worth more than the life of a teenager.

Not only is my wife and child worth much more, so is my own life worth more than some thugs life.

 

[Revoltingest]

A revolting ode to wisdom: Fess up to a mistake.

Some people when shown they're not right
continue denial and fight
with posters rejecting
the feckless deflecting.
(I've no one in mind here tonite.)

 

[Revoltingest]

How has the percentage of people with concealed weapons changed over time?
The percentage of both gun owners and households with guns in the US has been decreasing steadily for several decades:

I didn't look for any statistics, but we've had a large number of states become "shall issue", ie, that they must issue CCW/CCP licenses to any qualified applicant. In the old days, I had to prove need to a board, & very few were issued. Now the flood gates have opened, & I know very many who carry a concealed handgun. Likely millions of us are, & we have a very good record of doing this responsibly.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Don't look know, but you're referring to an entirely different country.
But if different countries are relevant for comparison, let's look at Brazil,
with it's strict gun control & higher murder rate.

Yes, let's look at Brazil:

The Brazilian government only recently introduced responsible gun control policies at home. While export and import controls were initiated during the 1930s, serious domestic legislation to regulate local purchase and use were established in 1980. By 1997, the government passed law 9437 that created the Sistema Nacional de Armas, or SINARM.

The law called for, among other things, simple registration procedures of firearms manufacturers, wholesalers, retailers, exporters and importers. It also mandated basic background checks by the federal police. But the law has been poorly implemented owing to rivalries between federal and state police forces and persistent weaknesses in implementation.

Even so, Brazil has much to teach the world when it comes to innovative gun violence reduction strategies. After considerable pressure from police and civil society groups, the country established a Disarmament Statute in 2003. The Statute centralizes responsibility for controlling arms and ammunition.

It also forbids civilian carrying and sets out reasonable penalties for illegal sales to civilians and private security companies. The results were immediate, including a sharp reduction in gun sales and an estimated 5,000 lives saved.*

Opinion: Brazil Needs to Double Down on Responsible Gun Control | The Rio Times | Brazil News

Brazil used to have very little gun control and a very high rate of gun crimes. The gun control laws you referred to were recently introduced to deal with this problem, and while they haven't made Brazil perfect by any stretch of the imagination, they've improved by leaps and bounds from how things were before.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I didn't look for any statistics, but we've had a large number of states become "shall issue", ie, that they must issue CCW/CCP licenses to any qualified applicant. In the old days, I had to prove need to a board, & very few were issued. Now the flood gates have opened, & I know very many who carry a concealed handgun. Likely millions of us are, & we have a very good record of doing this responsibly.

But how many people went from no firearms at all to getting a concealed weapon permit? The stats suggest that increases in guns per capita are probably a result of existing gun owners owning more guns each, not more people becoming firearm owners.

 

[metis]

BTW, let me just mention that, according to the DPD, the average household in Detroit has three guns and yet it has one of the highest homicide and crime rates in the country.

 

[Alceste]

BTW, let me just mention that, according to the DPD, the average household in Detroit has three guns and yet it has one of the highest homicide and crime rates in the country.

Yeah, makes you think - the gun owner we're talking about was burgled 18 times, and we should surprised that the burglar he shot had a gun? Dude probably had 18 of them.

 

[dust1n]

Your post was a single sentence. You said US crime is rising. You are wrong. Own up to your mistake.

Focusing on that one sentence makes for a really bad reading. Soaring can refer to a gliding type motion or a rise in elevation. She says she intended the first of the two choices. You assuming to know her intentions in the usage of a particular word, as if "soaring" was a universal symbol for whatever you think it means, does not make for a particular cogent point.

soar (third-person singular simple present soars, present participle soaring, simple past and past participle soared)

1. To fly aloft with little effort, as a bird. When soars Gaul's vulture with his wings unfurled. Byron.
2. To mount upward on wings, or as on wings.
3. To fly by means of a glider or other unpowered aircraft.
4. To rise, especially rapidly or unusually high. The pump prices soared into new heights as the strike continued.
5. (figuratively) To rise in thought, spirits, or imagination; to be exalted in mood. Where the deep transported mind may soar. John Milton.Valor soars above What the world calls misfortune. Joseph Addison

soar - Wiktionary

 

[4consideration]

Yeah, makes you think - the gun owner we're taking about was burgled 18 times, and we should surprised that the burglar he shot had a gun? Dude probably had 18 of them.

I've seen you mention that he was burgled 18 times twice, and I can't seem to find that information. All I could find was that his home was broken into several times. Would you please show me where you are getting that exact figure?

 

[Alceste]

I've seen you mention that he was burgled 18 times twice, and I can't seem to find that information. All I could find was that his home was broken into several times. Would you please show me where you are getting that exact figure?

I'm recalling it from the first post that mentioned the incident. Either that or making it up. Even I don't know which, but I can't be bothered to track down the post that mentioned the number, since it's not that relevant to my comment.

 

[esmith]

Evidence please. Focusing specifically on your use of the words "often" and "only", since it makes no sense in light of the fact that murder and rape are both much more common in the armed US than unarmed Canada.

First it only takes one instance of murder or rape if it happens to you or a loved to make one possibly change their mind. Of course if one is killed......Second do you think that possibly it is the social difference between people in Canada and the US that is influencing criminal acts. Does Canada have the same social problems that the US does? I think one should consider all factors before blaming one unique situation.

 

[esmith]

I would have thoughts cops would be really against an unfettered second amendment - what since they dont like 'cop killer' ammunition, I would have assumed they would also not like large clip sizes and assault weapons.

I guess some cops like people going around armed in such a fashion as to allow them to kill cops.

What you fail to comprehend or possibly refuse to believe, since it fails to justify your stance, is that law abiding citizens do not go around and indiscriminately shooting people, let alone law enforcement officers. Many law enforcement personnel, especially in certain sections of the country, believe that citizens should arm themselves. I believe there was a sheriff in Texas that made a statement "You farmers, I'm telling you right now, arm yourselves," he said. "As they say the old story is, it's better to be tried by 12 than carried by six. Damn it, I don't want to see six people carrying you." You must also remember that the police only arrive on the scene to investigate a crime the majority of the time. We here in what some politicians consider the "fly over country" take very seriously our Constitutional rights to own and carry; as a matter of fact I happen to live in a state that is "open carry".

 

[Apex]

BTW, let me just mention that, according to the DPD, the average household in Detroit has three guns and yet it has one of the highest homicide and crime rates in the country.

Source? And is that legal guns, or illegal ones?

 

[Revoltingest]

Yes, let's look at Brazil:
Opinion: Brazil Needs to Double Down on Responsible Gun Control | The Rio Times | Brazil News
Brazil used to have very little gun control and a very high rate of gun crimes. The gun control laws you referred to were recently introduced to deal with this problem, and while they haven't made Brazil perfect by any stretch of the imagination, they've improved by leaps and bounds from how things were before.

If this correlation is causation (Has it improved? Links?), then could
the dropping US crime rate be due to more guns carried by citizens?
Note that it dropped even during a declining economic climate.

 

[oldbadger]

...........................I happen to live in a state that is "open carry".

Is this unusual? How many States allow open carry?
I ask because I am just interested..... my only agenda is about 'third party insurance' issues, and this question does not have particular impact upon that.

...... I'm interested to hear more about open=-carry, please.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

What you fail to comprehend or possibly refuse to believe, since it fails to justify your stance, is that law abiding citizens do not go around and indiscriminately shooting people, let alone law enforcement officers. Many law enforcement personnel, especially in certain sections of the country, believe that citizens should arm themselves. I believe there was a sheriff in Texas that made a statement "You farmers, I'm telling you right now, arm yourselves," he said. "As they say the old story is, it's better to be tried by 12 than carried by six. Damn it, I don't want to see six people carrying you." You must also remember that the police only arrive on the scene to investigate a crime the majority of the time. We here in what some politicians consider the "fly over country" take very seriously our Constitutional rights to own and carry; as a matter of fact I happen to live in a state that is "open carry".

That wonderful mindset is perhaps a large portion of the reason why so many are needlessly killed in America; a situation that would only be considered an affray has a not insignificant chance of ending in a homicide if at least one party has a gun.

It also has very little to do with the post you quoted in terms of police-centric focus, my point was most specifically with regards to the use of firearms against agents of the law (though I would assume that this number is low as a % of all such crimes given the rather ludicrous number of crimes) as well as the chances of escalation from minor to major crimes (although in this later case perhaps because they are so badly under resourced, there is an attitude that it will reduce the amount of work they have to do).

 

[oldbadger]

If this correlation is causation (Has it improved? Links?), then could
the dropping US crime rate be due to more guns carried by citizens?
Note that it dropped even during a declining economic climate.

I don't know anything about your decreasing crime rate. Are you talking about murders? The crime rate is altering all over the world just now, because the wise-bandits are cluing up on the fact that it's easier to steal and deceive on the www, than to have to stick their necks out in physical crime.

The whole face of deception, theft, blackmail and false accounting is changing as fast as technology is moving...... and it's accelerating at shocking speed. On a low scale, primary school kids can tell you how to use a vegetable-code to buy a $50 game for under a dollar, the middle boys can adapt an ATM to read every user's details and film their PINs. On a big scale the naughties are out of site, clawing billions out of markets and individuals.

Yes, crime is moving home....... but don't kid yourself that this is useful material for total gun-freedom advocates. Other countries don't mind what you guys do, so there's no big heat from folks like me. Do what you do....... but over issues such as you guys don't need 3rd party gun insurance, yet have to insure your cars and have public liability on so much more..... well, that's just a joke ...... it's a joke. :yes:

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't know anything about your decreasing crime rate. Are you talking about murders? The crime rate is altering all over the world just now, because the wise-bandits are cluing up on the fact that it's easier to steal and deceive on the www, than to have to stick their necks out in physical crime.

The whole face of deception, theft, blackmail and false accounting is changing as fast as technology is moving...... and it's accelerating at shocking speed. On a low scale, primary school kids can tell you how to use a vegetable-code to buy a $50 game for under a dollar, the middle boys can adapt an ATM to read every user's details and film their PINs. On a big scale the naughties are out of site, clawing billions out of markets and individuals.

Yes, crime is moving home....... but don't kid yourself that this is useful material for total gun-freedom advocates. Other countries don't mind what you guys do, so there's no big heat from folks like me. Do what you do....... but over issues such as you guys don't need 3rd party gun insurance, yet have to insure your cars and have public liability on so much more..... well, that's just a joke ...... it's a joke. :yes:

I'll bet you're an insurance agent!