• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Detroit police chief says armed citizens deter crime

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Is this by law? Or conjecture?
Long guns owned by individuals have to be unloaded and locked (either with a trigger or cable lock, or stored in a locked case or cabinet) during storage. Ammunition can be stored in the same case/cabinet:

Storing, Transporting and Displaying Firearms - Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Restricted weapons (e.g. handguns) and weapons owned by businesses have additional requirements.

That's the Federal requirement that applies nationwide. Individual provinces can add more stringent requirements on top of this.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Long guns owned by individuals have to be unloaded and locked (either with a trigger or cable lock, or stored in a locked case or cabinet) during storage. Ammunition can be stored in the same case/cabinet:

Storing, Transporting and Displaying Firearms - Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Restricted weapons (e.g. handguns) and weapons owned by businesses have additional requirements.

That's the Federal requirement that applies nationwide. Individual provinces can add more stringent requirements on top of this.

Thanks, Pengo. Appreciate the research.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
You've repeatedly used the word "prefer", which certainly implies choice.

"Between grapes and cherries, which do you prefer?" "I choose bananas! There are more fruit than just those two, so I choose nether!"
That would be a rather imbecilic response to the question, don't you agree?

You've taken the position that those who think wanting to have a gun handy "just in case" a rapist turns up is excessively paranoid
It's no more "paranoid" than wearing a set belt while driving/riding an automobile, or keeping a fire extinguisher in your kitchen. No one anticipates or expects to ever be in an accident or house fire, but they still take precautionary measures. But do you object to that? Nope. So let's be honest, your objection towards gun ownership isn't based merely on the presumption that gun owners are "paranoid", especially when you refer to someone defending themselves as "murder". Also, if I lived in a gang-ridden ghetto, I might just be a bit wary and on guard.

would "prefer" to see a woman raped than a rapist shot. Has anyone every said any such thing? No.
But if a woman shot a man who was attempting to beat and rape her, and he died from his injuries, would you fault the woman, calling what she did "murder" as you have other's who've used a firearm to defend themselves? Even if you oppose gun rights, surely you would consider that outcome preferable to her coming to harm instead?

I PREFER to say to anyone I catch in the act of an attempted crime "**** off right now or I'm calling the police". (For the record, I've also averted an attempted "kick the door down" burglary attempt on a neighbor with this phrase.) That's what I prefer to BOTH allowing criminals to do whatever they want AND shooting any criminals I catch in the act. What's the problem?

The problem is that I've repeatedly stated that there are other means and methods and other possible outcomes. Of course there are, and if people wish to use alternative means of defense that's their right and prerogative. I've also repeatedly stated that it bears no relevance to the point of the statement at hand, yet you continue to prattle on about it for some strange reason.
Also, it's one thing to make the personal choice to rely on threats to call the cops and Tae Bo to defend yourself, but it's ridiculous to expect others to do the same when it would most likely put them at much greater risk. But it was never about the safety and well-being of innocent citizens, but rather about humoring some mawkish ideology, right?
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
For clarity, I intend to hunt delicious moose and elk (it's on the bucket list, anyway). I do not anticipate any need to "protect myself" with a gun. To me, that seems like a very silly thing to anticipate.
No one expects or anticipates to use a gun for self-defense no more than one expects or anticipates car crashes when they wear a seat belt. Do you wear a seat belt? Are cyclists who wear helmets paranoid? Of course guns aren't a necessity. Neither is a fire extinguisher in the kitchen - although they can both be useful precautionary measures. Just because I have a spare tire in the trunk doesn't mean that I drive around in a nervous sweat worrying about a tire blowing at any moment.
Your characterization is rather ridiculous.

As I said earlier, "**** off or I'll call the police" works just fine as a crime deterrent in Canada.
That's fine, but what's plan B if they happen to dismiss the threat to do so, especially if they proceed slap the phone out of your hand and pin you down?
 
Last edited:

Alceste

Vagabond
"Between grapes and cherries, which do you prefer?" "I choose bananas! There are more fruit than just those two, so I choose nether!"
That would be a rather imbecilic response to the question, don't you agree?

It's no more "paranoid" than wearing a set belt while driving/riding an automobile, or keeping a fire extinguisher in your kitchen. No one anticipates or expects to ever be in an accident or house fire, but they still take precautionary measures. But do you object to that? Nope. So let's be honest, your objection towards gun ownership isn't based merely on the presumption that gun owners are "paranoid", especially when you refer to someone defending themselves as "murder". Also, if I lived in a gang-ridden ghetto, I might just be a bit wary and on guard.

But if a woman shot a man who was attempting to beat and rape her, and he died from his injuries, would you fault the woman, calling what she did "murder" as you have other's who've used a firearm to defend themselves? Even if you oppose gun rights, surely you would consider that outcome preferable to her coming to harm instead?



The problem is that I've repeatedly stated that there are other means and methods and other possible outcomes. Of course there are, and if people wish to use alternative means of defense that's their right and prerogative. I've also repeatedly stated that it bears no relevance to the point of the statement at hand, yet you continue to prattle on about it for some strange reason.
Also, it's one thing to make the personal choice to rely on threats to call the cops and Tae Bo to defend yourself, but it's ridiculous to expect others to do the same when it would most likely put them at much greater risk. But it was never about the safety and well-being of innocent citizens, but rather about humoring some mawkish ideology, right?

No, it's not like asking "grapes or cherries". It's like asking a vegetarian whether they "prefer" burgers or hot dogs. It's a silly question when I've already told you both choices are unacceptable to me, and it's just childish to keep harping on about it and demanding I pick one after I've made my answer completely clear several times. And by childish, I mean this "would you rather" nonsense is a silly game actual children actually play, and I never cooperated even as a child. It's not an effective debate strategy by any stretch of the imagination.

I don't accept that there is any significant risk of being attacked. Ordinary people in peaceful times and places who believe they are always at risk of being violently attacked come off as paranoid to me. That's just how it is. It's an excessive precaution for a very unlikely event that can be easily prevented by other means. Like, if I was so worried about a house fire I kept the whole thing slightly damp.

Burgled, maybe. That happens around here. I'll probably get insurance and activate the alarm system here eventually, but a gun would just be silly. I can replace most of my stuff, but have you ever tried to get blood stains out of upholstery and carpets? No thank you.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
No one expects or anticipates to use a gun for self-defense no more than one expects or anticipates car crashes when they wear a seat belt. Do you wear a seat belt? Are cyclists who wear helmets paranoid? Of course guns aren't a necessity. Neither is a fire extinguisher in the kitchen - although they can both be useful precautionary measures. Just because I have a spare tire in the trunk doesn't mean that I drive around in a nervous sweat worrying about a tire blowing at any moment.
Your characterization is rather ridiculous.

That's fine, but what's plan B if they happen to dismiss the threat to do so, especially if they proceed slap the phone out of your hand and pin you down?

You can't accidentally kill yourself or anyone else with a bike helmet. A criminal can't steal your bike helmet and rob a gas station or murder a rival gang member with it. Your kid can't kill herself playing with your bike helmet. And yet if you have an accident (all but inevitable for those who cycle regularly), it can save your life.

The risk of keeping a loaded hand gun at the ready is much, much, much greater than the risk of being attacked and needing to defend yourself with it.

Never needed plan B. Never even needed to follow through with plan A and actually call the police, but my friend and my neighbour were both very grateful I chased the aspiring rapist and the burglar off.

I will humour you, though. If ever "bugger off" fails me and I find myself actually being attacked, the plan is to knock down the attacker and scarper. That's basically "lesson one" in any martial arts class.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
No, it's not like asking "grapes or cherries". It's like asking a vegetarian whether they "prefer" burgers or hot dogs. It's a silly question when I've already told you both choices are unacceptable to me,
Well, Sure. Both can be regarded as unacceptable, but are they equally unacceptable or is one more unacceptable than the other?

and it's just childish to keep harping on about it and demanding I pick one

Go ahead, quote each time that I've apparently "harped" and "demanded".

after I've made my answer completely clear several times.
And your answer was just as irrelevant the first time as it was the last time considering that we've long since established that it had nothing to do with anything, and at this juncture I'm not expecting you to offer anything particularly substantial or insightful.

And by childish, I mean this "would you rather" nonsense is a silly game actual children actually play, and I never cooperated even as a child. It's not an effective debate strategy by any stretch of the imagination.

No, what's childish is your deliberate and continued attempt to distort my statements. It was a statement regarding peoples ethical perspective toward something. There is nothing childish about weighing whether X is equal to, worse than, or better than Y. But if you struggle with reading comprehension then I image that would be an even greater challenge.
 
Last edited:

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
You can't accidentally kill yourself or anyone else with a bike helmet. A criminal can't steal your bike helmet and rob a gas station or murder a rival gang member with it. Your kid can't kill herself playing with your bike helmet. And yet if you have an accident (all but inevitable for those who cycle regularly), it can save your life.
So the issue wasn't "paranoia" as you've stated, but rather risk and safety. Alcohol, tobacco, cars, and swimming pools (not just combined but each individually) kill more people than guns do, and unlike guns they're purely recreational and nonessential. Let's not forget junk food - more people die from heart disease and diabetes than from guns as well. Why don't you desire for those things to be banned as well if risk and safety is genuinely your concern?

The risk of keeping a loaded hand gun at the ready is much, much, much greater than the risk of being attacked and needing to defend yourself with it.

Those risks are dependent upon the how well trained, informed, and responsible the gun owner is.

Never needed plan B. Never even needed to follow through with plan A and actually call the police, but my friend and my neighbour were both very grateful I chased the aspiring rapist and the burglar off.

If someone never been in an auto accident before, would you consider it silly for them to wear a seat belt? After all they never needed it in the past. Good fortune in the past doesn't guarantee good fortune in the future. There is nothing wrong with trying to scare of perpetrators by threatening to call the cops, but it's beyond obtuse to assume that will always be 100% effective and fool proof in any situation.

I will humour you, though. If ever "bugger off" fails me and I find myself actually being attacked, the plan is to knock down the attacker and scarper. That's basically "lesson one" in any martial arts class.

If you're confident that you can take an armed attacker, or multiple attackers, then may your spinning scissor kicks fell their target(s). But what about those who aren't Kung-Fu masters? What should they do if threatening to call the cops doesn't work for them?
 
Last edited:

dust1n

Zindīq
"A common argument from firearm opponents here is that the availability of firearms in the US is a major factor in our homicide rate.If you (Canadians) can still "have all the guns you want", except handguns, then it should follow that your homicide rate should be comparable to ours when comparing only those firearms available in both countries."

If I understand your argument correctly, the argument that firearm opponents make regarding the availability of firearms being a major factor is dismissible because if the availability of firearms is the same (theoretically) regarding non-pistol firearms, then the murder rates should be comparable. Since they are not comparable, then the aforementioned common argument from firearm opponents is incorrect because similar availabilities of firearms does not yield similar homicide rates.

Did I get the gist right?


Then the conclusion is not valid, because the prevalence of other variables can account for the difference in homicide rates (excluding handguns). Namely, something like, for example, the availability of healthcare could be altering the numbers in such a way that a correlation between homicide rates and the availability of guns is not obvious.

It could just as easily be the case that there is a very strong correlation between the two factors, but since there is another variable at play, the homicides in Canada are less. The premises you use to discredit the notion that there is a correlation between gun availability and homicide similarly discredit your own notions that that gun availability is not a factor. There very may well be hundreds of thousands of variables when determining homicide rates, but none of that credits the notion that gun availability is not a major factor in homicide rates anymore than it does the notion that gun availability is a major factor.

In other words, the method you used to arrive at the conclusion is self-defeating.
 

Apex

Somewhere Around Nothing
Then the conclusion is not valid, because the prevalence of other variables can account for the difference in homicide rates (excluding handguns). Namely, something like, for example, the availability of healthcare could be altering the numbers in such a way that a correlation between homicide rates and the availability of guns is not obvious.

It could just as easily be the case that there is a very strong correlation between the two factors, but since there is another variable at play, the homicides in Canada are less. The premises you use to discredit the notion that there is a correlation between gun availability and homicide similarly discredit your own notions that that gun availability is not a factor. There very may well be hundreds of thousands of variables when determining homicide rates, but none of that credits the notion that gun availability is not a major factor in homicide rates anymore than it does the notion that gun availability is a major factor.

In other words, the method you used to arrive at the conclusion is self-defeating.
I think you are putting far too much weight on the availability of healthcare.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
I think you are putting far too much weight on the availability of healthcare.

It was an example. If I was putting far too much weight on all the other thousands of possible factors, then my last post would be applicable. But, we've already agree on the notion of there thousands of factors:

A number of things could potentially account for that... stuff like availability to access a hospital, availability to treat gun shot wounds, mental health care being available, and hundreds of unknown variables that are not taken into account.

DING DING DING! We have a winner! That is exactly my point!

So my last post stands regardless if the availability of healthcare is a factor or not.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
No one expects or anticipates to use a gun for self-defense no more than one expects or anticipates car crashes when they wear a seat belt. Do you wear a seat belt? Are cyclists who wear helmets paranoid? Of course guns aren't a necessity. Neither is a fire extinguisher in the kitchen - although they can both be useful precautionary measures. Just because I have a spare tire in the trunk doesn't mean that I drive around in a nervous sweat worrying about a tire blowing at any moment.
Your characterization is rather ridiculous.

That's fine, but what's plan B if they happen to dismiss the threat to do so, especially if they proceed slap the phone out of your hand and pin you down?
At least the police will come after the incident is over to write the report of the murdered and raped people.

Paper work is important too.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
At least the police will come after the incident is over to write the report of the murdered and raped people.
Paper work is important too.
Our local cops don't do much to prevent crime, but when one occurs, they're
quick to document it. But to actually pursue the perps....they've no interest.
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
This thread is silly, even if we all agreed to turn in our guns, the criminals would keep theirs.

Additional gun laws are stupid, criminals don't obey laws.....duh!

Gun free zones might make some folks feel better, but I see them as vunerable targets with no available resistance.

The Genie is already out of the bottle, it is ignorant to believe you can put it back.

Mental illness is the real issue. I believe all criminals are mental.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
This thread is silly, even if we all agreed to turn in our guns, the criminals would keep theirs.

Additional gun laws are stupid, criminals don't obey laws.....duh!

Gun free zones might make some folks feel better, but I see them as vunerable targets with no available resistance.

The Genie is already out of the bottle, it is ignorant to believe you can put it back.

Mental illness is the real issue. I believe all criminals are mental.

I think many of the people who are bringing their guns to buy back programs are probably the same demographic as the people who might be tempted to use them to knock off a liquor store or mug somebody. IOW, people who are desperate for money.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
This thread is silly, even if we all agreed to turn in our guns, the criminals would keep theirs.

Additional gun laws are stupid, criminals don't obey laws.....duh!

Gun free zones might make some folks feel better, but I see them as vunerable targets with no available resistance.

The Genie is already out of the bottle, it is ignorant to believe you can put it back.

Mental illness is the real issue. I believe all criminals are mental.
The thread is about a senior cop who seems to be encouraging untrained, uninsured civilians to 'have a go'. It is not about 'guns awash America'. The debate just ran off course.

if all criminals are mentally ill, then they would need to be treated as mentally disabled? You need to think again about that, imo.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Our local cops don't do much to prevent crime, but when one occurs, they're
quick to document it. But to actually pursue the perps....they've no interest.

So, if there was no police force in your State there would not be much increase in crime? That's just a crazy idea.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
So, if there was no police force in your State there would not be much increase in crime? That's just a crazy idea.
There would be, but primarily in selected areas of active enforcement:
- Drugs
- National security
- Traffic laws
- Sexual assault
Unaffected would be areas where they devote little or no effort:
- Fraud
- Embezzlement
- Property theft

My personal experience in these matters would astound!

Mind you, I believe we need cops. But their proper management & value seem poorly understood.
You'll notice that I know everything, so I'm giving you facts, not opinions!
 
Last edited:

CMike

Well-Known Member
The thread is about a senior cop who seems to be encouraging untrained, uninsured civilians to 'have a go'. It is not about 'guns awash America'. The debate just ran off course.

if all criminals are mentally ill, then they would need to be treated as mentally disabled? You need to think again about that, imo.
Actually it's the Detroit chief of police, not just a senior cop.

And he correctly states that honest citizens having the right to be armed deters criminals from victimiziting.

Yeah...well if a criminal is coming after you with a knife you can try and just treat him as if he is mentally ill and see what hospital or morgue you end up in.
 
Top