Devas: Roles in your practice

[Terese]

Yeah. Buddhism is complex. When I looked up Hinduism, I just threw my hands up. I always wondered how long converts take until they are comfortable in their faith as a Hindu. Must take awhile.

Is 3 months long?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Also, Hindus, do the Devas have a role in your faith? If they do, how so?

No. The devas play only a secondary role in Hinduism (even their abode is a lesser heaven, Swarga) - of managing the physical universe, Indra (Rain), Fire, Sun, Moon, Air (Vayu), etc. These were the Aryan Gods and Goddesses. Their powers also are limited as against the unlimited power of Indigenous Gods and Goddesses.

The social/Moral domain has remained with the Indigenous Gods and Goddesses, Avataras, Shiva and his family, and Mother Goddess Durga. Gods do not teach much in Hinduism because the Dharma is already well defined by sages and scriptures and so are the consequences of not following Dharma. Sure, at times they will advise.

There are three major accretions from the Vedic pantheon in Hinduism - Vishnu who bonded with Avataras, Rudra who bonded with Shiva, and Saraswati, who partly bonded with Mother Goddess as Brahmacharini/Maha Saraswati. She is the consort of Lord Brahma as Brahmani.

 

[LuisDantas]

It seems to me that it would be fair to say that what the Devas are exactly and what role is proper for them is a matter of considerable, if usually rather friendly, debate.

There seems to be very little consensus on that, but apparently Hindu practice tends to allow people to freely gravitate towards people of similar perspectives for practice proper, while respectfully disagreeing on emphasis or even meaning with other people.

I stand firm that this is a solution that may appear at first glance to be a problem. Or maybe it is just respectful acknowledgement of the actual needs of human nature of reconciling the need for individual, customized belief and expression with the need for being understood and attaining meanignful exchanges with other people.

The Devas themselves, I feel safe in assuming, have neither need nor strong desire for us to agree on what they are or even whether they exist in any way. By nature, they are certainly beyond such concerns. And while many healthy forms of relationships with the Deva are possible and do in fact exist, I don't think any of those involve much of a need to convince others outside the direct relationship between Deva and Dharmi.

 

[sayak83]

Yeah. Buddhism is complex. When I looked up Hinduism, I just threw my hands up. I always wondered how long converts take until they are comfortable in their faith as a Hindu. Must take awhile.

I won't know much about that. Hopefully they will have good experiences. I am more afraid of they being conned by questionable gurus than anything else.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It seems to me that it would be fair to say that what the Devas are exactly and what role is proper for them is a matter of considerable, if usually rather friendly, debate.

There seems to be very little consensus on that, but apparently Hindu practice tends to allow people to freely gravitate towards people of similar perspectives for practice proper, while respectfully disagreeing on emphasis or even meaning with other people.

I stand firm that this is a solution that may appear at first glance to be a problem. Or maybe it is just respectful acknowledgement of the actual needs of human nature of reconciling the need for individual, customized belief and expression with the need for being understood and attaining meanignful exchanges with other people.

The Devas themselves, I feel safe in assuming, have neither need nor strong desire for us to agree on what they are or even whether they exist in any way. By nature, they are certainly beyond such concerns. And while many healthy forms of relationships with the Deva are possible and do in fact exist, I don't think any of those involve much of a need to convince others outside the direct relationship between Deva and Dharmi.

I think I asked our master teacher about the different realms. I dont think the question got through clearly but I asked by realms do they mean different stages ones mind would be in before another rebirth. I was wondering if Devas relate to each mind state. Im not familar with what "a god" is so in that respect they wouldnt have much role in my practice as basic meditation, Dhamma application, and celebrant worship on said holidays.

 

[Rinchen]

I like to study; and, have been studying my whole life. So, that's part of my faith. I was reading recently in the book our master gave us when we took the refuges. After taking the refuges, we also vow that we do not respect or practice what is taught by Devas, Spirits, or Demons. We don't respect a practice externalist faiths or heterodox beliefs. We do not respect or associate with evil friends and wicked crowds. It's somewhat of a harsh translation from Vietnamese.

I looked it up already and it said Devas are divine beings, some sites mention them as gods. The Lotus Sutra mentions them as the same level as human beings who come to hear The Dhamma from The Buddha while I haven't yet understood the role of Devas in the Pali suttas yet.

Are you familiar with the refuge in Zen Vietnamese Buddhism about not practicing what is taught by the Devas?

Do Devas teach anything and if they do, what teachings do they give that contradict the Dhamma of The Buddha himself?​

I'm not just a meditator but I go all out so this will be and is my life not something I study externally. Do you have some insight on how Devas can hinder our practice in worship and meditation of the Dhamma and our spiritual growth as Buddhists?

Also, Hindus, do the Devas have a role in your faith? If they do, how so?​

The basis of this is that the Devas and their teachings, as well as any other teaching, lack even a basic conceptual understanding of emptiness, anatman, etc. Without emptiness, there is no Buddhahood. The eternalist beliefs and so on, are the tirthika philosophies, which too lack understanding about emptiness, etc.

Only the Triple Jewel is worth taking refuge in. All other teachings will only attempt to make samsara comfortable, not free you from it.

 

[LuisDantas]

The basis of this is that the Devas and their teachings, as well as any other teaching, lack even a basic conceptual understanding of emptiness, anatman, etc. Without emptiness, there is no Buddhahood. The eternalist beliefs and so on, are the tirthika philosophies, which too lack understanding about emptiness, etc.

Only the Triple Jewel is worth taking refuge in. All other teachings will only attempt to make samsara comfortable, not free you from it.

From a strictly Buddhist perspective, certainly.

But if we are talking about the Devas, we should probably acknowledge that Hinduism will not often agree with Buddhism on what they are and what role is proper for them.

A good argument can be made that the Buddhist take on Devas do not address the same Devas or conceptions of Devas from Hinduism, despite an usual lack of proper warning and a sharing of names.

 

[Rinchen]

From a strictly Buddhist perspective, certainly.

But if we are talking about the Devas, we should probably acknowledge that Hinduism will not often agree with Buddhism on what they are and what role is proper for them.

A good argument can be made that the Buddhist take on Devas do not address the same Devas or conceptions of Devas from Hinduism, despite an usual lack of proper warning and a sharing of names.

Absolutely, I was just replying to the OP who wondered how Devas could hinder a Buddhists spiritual growth.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The basis of this is that the Devas and their teachings, as well as any other teaching, lack even a basic conceptual understanding of emptiness, anatman, etc. Without emptiness, there is no Buddhahood. The eternalist beliefs and so on, are the tirthika philosophies, which too lack understanding about emptiness, etc.

Only the Triple Jewel is worth taking refuge in. All other teachings will only attempt to make samsara comfortable, not free you from it.

How do they lack teachings? Arent many of devas teachings came from The Buddha himself? In some suttas they act as disciples.

 

[Rinchen]

How do they lack teachings? Arent many of devas teachings came from The Buddha himself? In some suttas they act as disciples.

The Buddha himself said that it is only possible to attain realization as a Human. A god cannot because of their state of living. Do the gods have teachings? Well, I'm sure they have many. How many of them lead to complete Buddhahood though? And even though a god may be a disciple of Buddha, that in and of itself isn't indicitive that the god is enlightened.

It's pretty clear that in Buddhism you will break your refuge vow if you take refuge in anything besides the Triple Gem, because the Triple Gem is the only source of liberation. I know this doesn't sit well with a lot of people, because it reminds them of other religions that say they are the only way. But if you actually dive into Buddhadharma it becomes apparent. This is partly why, upon examination, I spent 9 and a half years studying Buddhism before I did the refuge ceremony. When you take refuge, you are taking refuge in liberation, in freedom. The gods cannot give us permanent freedom, they are samsaric like we are.

Again, this is of course from a strictly Buddhism viewpoint.

 

[Aupmanyav]

From a strictly Buddhist perspective, certainly.

But if we are talking about the Devas, we should probably acknowledge that Hinduism will not often agree with Buddhism on what they are and what role is proper for them.

A good argument can be made that the Buddhist take on Devas do not address the same Devas or conceptions of Devas from Hinduism, despite an usual lack of proper warning and a sharing of names.

Hindu devas are like department heads in a corporation, while the indigenous Gods are like Directors of the corporation. Apart from the ones that I have mentioned, Yama for death, Dhanvantari for health, etc. They are not the chosen/personal deities of people (Ishta).

 

[LuisDantas]

May you please elaborate, @Aupmanyav ?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The Buddha himself said that it is only possible to attain realization as a Human. A god cannot because of their state of living. Do the gods have teachings? Well, I'm sure they have many. How many of them lead to complete Buddhahood though? And even though a god may be a disciple of Buddha, that in and of itself isn't indicitive that the god is enlightened.

It's pretty clear that in Buddhism you will break your refuge vow if you take refuge in anything besides the Triple Gem, because the Triple Gem is the only source of liberation. I know this doesn't sit well with a lot of people, because it reminds them of other religions that say they are the only way. But if you actually dive into Buddhadharma it becomes apparent. This is partly why, upon examination, I spent 9 and a half years studying Buddhism before I did the refuge ceremony. When you take refuge, you are taking refuge in liberation, in freedom. The gods cannot give us permanent freedom, they are samsaric like we are.

Again, this is of course from a strictly Buddhism viewpoint.

Thank you. Yes. The vows we took we took for life. I researched vietnamese zen and its a combination of other native religion so the cultural views arent Theravada. They dont have an equivalent to a one-god belief. I never had that conflict because I never believed in god. If its like AP is saying about secondary, then Im fine with that. The emphasis though is on the bodhisattvas not gods. We see ourselves as bodhisatta as holding off on our liberation to serve others and focus on their enlightenment first.

 

[Aupmanyav]

May you please elaborate,

Sure, Luis. The devas are said to number 33. Of course, the 33 of the Aryans and the current 33 may differ. The names that I remember are Indra as the Chief of lesser Gods along with Agni, Sun, Moon, Vayu, etc. The planets Buddha (mercury), Shukra (Venus), Mangala (Mars) etc. also are lesser Gods and they affect lives of people in their own way. These Gods live in Swarga (their heaven) and enjoy their life with drinks, food, and dances of apsaras and singing of yakshas, vidyadharas and gandharvas (extra-human species but not Gods) in their free time (when not engaged in the work entrusted to them in the corporation).

Meritorious people as reward of their good deeds are sent to this Indra's heaven to enjoy their sojourn. If they have bad deeds in their account books, then they will go to hell for a time proportionate to their bad deeds before being sent back to earth in a new life (which may be human or animal). These lesser Gods have limited power and what power they have, that too emanates from the Big Bosses of Indigenous Gods and Goddesses, none of whom are mentioned in the RigVeda.

So who are the big basses? Vishnu, after his assimilation with the avataras, Shiva, into which Rudra merged, Mother Goddess in her innumerable forms (including Durga, Kali, Lakshmi, Parvati, Saraswati), Lord Brahma, Saraswati (associated with the Mother goddess as well as the consort of Lord Brahma), Ganesha and Kartikeya (Murugan) being sons of Shiva and Parvati, and Lord Hanumana being associated with Lord Rama. These are the proper Hindu Gods, all powerful, and worshiped. Their heavens are different. Vaikuntha for Vishnu and Kailasa for Shiva, but only the most devoted and do-gooders are eligible to the heavens of the big bosses from which they are not required to go back. They have attained Moksha, Nirvana.

Of course, that does not exhaust the list. Ayyappa is there and there are so many others, but they are not of the same rank for all Hindus as the above Gods. I am sure you would understand if other Hindu members offer different opinion, I think they too are right.